Capacitors?

[slimjimdom]

I'm thinking of replacing my ceramic disk caps for PIO caps. I have a few questions though I hope to get some experienced advice about.

 

I really want a bright and clear tone and I think the pickups are great I just wonder if they could be better. I'm sure you all know what I mean. So on to the quest for knowledge and advice....

 

Where is a good place to buy? (I've looked at RS Guitarworks site and they don't seem to have much variety)

 

What would be the major tone/function difference between a .001 cap and a .015 cap?

 

Is the change worth the time and money?

 

I appreciate any advice and suggestions.

 

Thanks

 

SJ

[tazzboy]

Orange Drop Caps get my vote and you can get them at Mouser.com

[djroge1]

RS guitar works is the only place I've found Paper in Oil caps so far. I'm sure there are others out there, but I've not found them yet... well, I stopped looking because someone mentioned that it is possible that the oil can leak. Right now I just run with Sprague orange drops.

 

And yes you'll get a different sound between .001 and .015 because caps bleed out the highs. However, if you always run your tone control wide open then it really doesn't matter because it will not bleed any of the highs - so you won't be able to tell the difference.

 

I've asked similar questions in the past about caps and some people can tell the difference between the type of caps while other cannot. However, all can tell the difference between the values.

[Tom99SS]

However' date=' if you always run your tone control wide open then it really doesn't matter because it will not bleed any of the highs - so you won't be able to tell the difference.

[/quote']

 

This is not actually true. Even with the tone control on 10 the signal still passes through the cap and thus the cap will have some effect on the tone. Also, a good PIO cap is way better than the ceramic disks that come stock.

 

Luxe, Sprague, Jensen all make good PIO caps. IF you do a google search you will find many reviews on the PIO caps and who sells them. I got mine from RS. I tried Spraque Vit Q's and those where really nice. Then tried the Luxe Repo Bees and these to me sounded better and more to my liking. Gave me that nice midrange honk.

 

YMMV

[Tim Plains]

Where is a good place to buy? (I've looked at RS Guitarworks site and they don't seem to have much variety)

 

What would be the major tone/function difference between a .001 cap and a .015 cap?

 

Is the change worth the time and money?

1. Try eBay. Find a seller and search his store for various caps. That's what I did.

 

2. Unless you go with RS or vintage Bees, caps are cheap. You should find a seller on eBay and just order a whole bunch of different caps. I have extra caps just sitting around that I bought to try out. Your LP has 0.022. You probably don't want anything darker sounding, i.e. 0.47...but then again maybe you should just try them out to hear them. If you do this, buy some alligator clips and use them to connect the new caps to the pots...rather than solder the caps on each time.

 

3. Yes.

[djroge1]

 

This is not actually true. Even with the tone control on 10 the signal still passes through the cap and thus the cap will have some effect on the tone. Also' date=' a good PIO cap is way better than the ceramic disks that come stock.

 

Luxe, Sprague, Jensen all make good PIO caps. IF you do a google search you will find many reviews on the PIO caps and who sells them. I got mine from RS. I tried Spraque Vit Q's and those where really nice. Then tried the Luxe Repo Bees and these to me sounded better and more to my liking. Gave me that nice midrange honk.

 

YMMV[/quote']

 

Well, that is true the signal does pass thru because it has to travel the whole circuit. However, I believe only those with a very discerning ear would probably hear the difference.

[Les Paul Fanatic]

Not to sound like a noob here but what would a capacitor do for your guitar. Don't bag I'm just a youngin'.

[Tim Plains]

LP Fanatic, they alter the sound.

When your tone is at 10, there's little change.

It's when you start rolling it back that you really notice a difference.

If you were to remove the caps from your guitar, your tone knob would have 0 affect.

[slimjimdom]

Great info guys, thanks.

 

I think I'll take a crack at the ebay market then. Which caps did you try Tim and which did you end up keeping?

I'm thinking .01-.015 neck and .022 bridge.

 

At the moment I've got a .001 in the neck and .022 bridge. The neck is nice and bright but it doesn't have alot of range between 0 and 10.

[jmjohnson]

When the capacitor is combined with a pot, they create a variable electronic filter that can dump certain frequencies to ground - those electrical frequencies that are above the cap rating. The more the pot is rolled back (lowered) the more of those high frequency treble responses get discarded.

 

I didn't hear any difference between the stock ceramic, an RS poly chicklet or an Orange Drop, but a Mullard Tropical Fish did seem to impact the tone some. Lower cap values did make a difference (i.e. .047 vs .022) - I tried that with the Orange Drops.

 

I eventually stuck with the Mullard .022s. I definitely enjoy knowing the quality of the new capacitor build vs. the ceramics is better, and there was a "fun factor" of tinkering, otherwise no big difference overall.

[slimjimdom]

Ok I'm hunting ebay and I'm a bit confused as the ratings all seem to be in uF (.22, .022, .5) Shouldn't the values be in mF and I'm assuming unless basic math has gone out the window in this case that .022 and .22 are not the same. Correct?

[colimodio]

Vitamin T's do it for me. They have them at MOJO:

https://www.mojomusicalsupply.com/search.asp?q=Vitamin+T

 

they are very reasonably priced and well made. I put two in my LP

 

(left the org caps installed but disconn)

[Flight959]

I have some sprague Vitamin Q's if you want to try them...

 

 

I have them in my LP

 

Flight959

[nosbig]

I'm thinking of replacing my ceramic disk caps for PIO caps. I have a few questions though I hope to get some experienced advice about.

 

I really want a bright and clear tone and I think the pickups are great I just wonder if they could be better. I'm sure you all know what I mean. So on to the quest for knowledge and advice....

 

Where is a good place to buy? (I've looked at RS Guitarworks site and they don't seem to have much variety)

 

What would be the major tone/function difference between a .001 cap and a .015 cap?

 

Is the change worth the time and money?

 

I appreciate any advice and suggestions.

 

Thanks

 

SJ

 

 

I treid some Jensen caps from RS and they made my lester sound like a strat!!! Yuk!!!!!!!!

[slimjimdom]

 

I treid some Jensen caps from RS and they made my lester sound like a strat!!! Yuk!!!!!!!!

 

Wow I was actually really considering those. See that's what this community is all about.

 

Flight, how do you like the vitamin Q's compared to the ceramics are they brighter, darker, smoother? What's you're take? I'm deffinitely thinking of trying these since they don't seem too difficult to come by.

 

I'm also interested in sqrague black beauties if anyone has experience with those I'd love to hear about it.

 

Thanks again

[pippy]

Hi slimjimdom.

 

I've a pair of Black Beauties in my guitar which has '57 Classics.

 

How much of the tone is down to the pups and how much to the caps is a moot point but as a set they seem to have less power but more subtlety than the B'Bucker-equipped guitars I test-drove.

 

As far as the caps go;

 

One thing I noticed - in comparison with all the other Pauls I tried - was the volume and tone controls are a lot more sensitive to small changes. I suspect this is where the influence of the caps comes in.

 

Slight alterations to each brings about a very noticeable difference and each alters the other, but at opposing ends of their rotational travel. By that I mean as the volume is turned from 8 to 10 it not only alters the volume but also the fundamental tone. Similarly, as the tone control is turned between approx 2 to 5 there is a volume increase.

Although this is a bit of a pain in the nether-region the variety of tones one can find is very different, and broader in range, to those produced by the other guitars I was trying at the same time.

 

It seems that the set-up I have is very different from the current range. Whether or not it's for you only you can tell.

 

Good luck in your quest!

[Tom99SS]

 

I treid some Jensen caps from RS and they made my lester sound like a strat!!! Yuk!!!!!!!!

 

Wow' date=' I have heard for many other people that have used these that they are dark sounding.

 

Also something to add to this is 'How you wire the Cap". Modern wiring vs. 50's wiring. It does make a difference.

 

Finally, here is a nice discussion on caps Cap discussion

[pippy]

Thanks very much, Tom99SS, for the link to the My Les Paul discussion.

Very interesting reading!

[slimjimdom]

I just picked up 9 sprague black beauties from the bay

 

(3) .015 mfd

(3) .022 mfd

(3) .033 mfd

 

I'm thinking .015 neck and .022 or even .033 bridge since that BB3 is very bright.

 

If I like the outcome they might end up in my SG as well.

 

Thanks again for all the information and advice.

[porschemunkey]

First, when your tone control is set for "10", you do NOT have any signal running through your capacitor. If you do, then you have a bad tone pot, and it should be replaced.

 

Second, if you want to increase the overall brightness, just replace your 500k pots with 1 Meg pots, and use the same capacitors. This changes the impedence of the system as a whole, and brightens the sound. This is why strats come with 250k pots, and PRS guitars like the McCarty, come with 300k pots. At least my 07 McCarty did. PRS used mismatched windings in the pickups so they'd "quack" a little, just like the regular BurstBuckers do, only more so. This makes them brighter, and when combined with the thinner body of the McCarty, led to a need to reduce the brightness of the tone a little. Hence the change to 300k pots.

 

Third, 57 Classics are supposed to be balanced-winding pickups. They're not overwound, so they'll drive the signal less (less pickup distortion) and they'll sound cleaner, with a little less midrange. Overwinding the pickups to make them "hot" tends to push the midrange frequencies up front and center. The BurstBucker Pros are a little overwound, but also use mis-matched windings, so the push in the midrange gets somewhat cancelled by the thinner sound the windings produce. I.E. they quack a little. It's a "fat quack" though because of the strong Alnico V magnets. The regular BurstBuckers, which I prefer, from the VOS series guitars use Alnico II magnets, which are weaker. They have less warmth, but also less magnetic pull on the strings. They're also not as "hot" as the Pros, so you have to goose them a little more with a Tube Screamer or a Rat ProCo pedal to make that "chunka-chunka" sound for rock and heavy metal. They'll still do it, and their midrange has a better scoop to it.

 

Fourth, you WILL find that rolling your volume knob from 10 to 9 will take a nasty, transistor-harsh clipping edge out of your tone. I keep my bridge pickup set for around 9, and the tone at 5 or so, with a Seymour Duncan Pearly Gates providing the snarling Les Paul tone that I love. Think Billy Gibbons meets Slash, with a little bit of Zakk Wylde tossed in for the squeals. The PG was supposedly designed to match the REAL '59 pickup in Billy's 1959 "Pearly Gates" Les Paul. It's wound with mis-matched windings, a little hotter than a true "vintage" pickup, with a bit of brightness on top of a gritty tone. It uses Alnico II pickups, like the BurstBuckers, and I think that makes all the difference in the world in the sound. Alnico V pickups have a nasty "POP" every time the pick hits the strings. They're so powerful that you can hardly use them with a compressor. The attack isn't "musical", it's "percussive". Backing off to 8 or 9 helps this some, but I hate the loss of gain that comes with it.

 

Fifth, I haven't a clue as to how my sound would change with different caps. If a cap of one brand is rated at .047, and another brand is rated at .047, theoretically they should sound the same. That's what the rating means. The difference would be that people think PIO caps sound "smoother" than ceramic caps. I definitely WILL try some PIO caps, probably Bumblebees eventually, but I'll stick with the same rating I started with in the guitar as I like that range of adjustment.

[Tom99SS]

First' date=' when your tone control is set for "10", you do NOT have any signal running through your capacitor. If you do, then you have a bad tone pot, and it should be replaced.

 

[/quote']

 

I canot say this enough. This statement is just incorrect. Even with the tone control on 10 the Cap still influences the tone. It has more effect depending if you use 50's wiring or Modern wiring.

 

The only way the tone pot/cap will not have an effect at all is if you have a no-load tone pot.

[djroge1]

 

I canot say this enough. This statement is just incorrect. Even with the tone control on 10 the Cap still influences the tone. It has more effect depending if you use 50's wiring or Modern wiring.

 

The only way the tone pot/cap will not have an effect at all is if you have a no-load tone pot.

 

 

My, my, my... we seem to have two conflicting ideas. One says it does have an effect on the sound and one says it doesn't if the tone is wide open to 10 (mine go to 11 ha ha).

 

I just want to know... are either of you guitar techies with a degree in electronics or an electrical engineer? I mean, how do I (and others) know which to believe?

 

I'm not attacking either thought or you personally. It's just that when confronted with two opposing sides it helps to know if any information is coming from an authoritative source.

 

Thanks

[Tom99SS]

djroge1

 

Let's put it this way. If the tone pot and cap have no effect when on 10 then it would not matter if the tone pot is 100k, 300k, 500k or 1 meg. But in reality the value of the tone pot does have an effect even when on 10. Now what connects the tone pot to the volume pot. Well it is the capacitor. The only time the tone pot would not have an effect if it is a no-load pot. Thus, the tone pot and capacitor do come into play even when on 10. To what extent depends on other things but to say it does not is not true.

 

People can believe what they want and I was under the same impression until I started to swap out the caps (my first cap change was done by a tech so I could learn. He even stated that the PIO cap will help with the sound no matter where your tone knob is set at).

 

Another example: on may Strat I removed the no-load tone pot with the same value tone pot (250k) but the new one is not a no-load pot. When the tone is on 10 it now is less trebly then when it had the no-load tone pot. I then added the Vitamin Q cap and it gave it a more woody sound when even on 10.

 

I am not an EE. Do I work on guitars, well I do my own setups and own wiring and help others but that is my limit.

 

People can believe what they want, I just know what I did to my guitars and there is a difference.

 

The link I posted above has good information along with links to a few other discussions.

 

OK, off my soapbox.

[djroge1]

Tom99ss,

 

Thanks for your reply. I'm actually agree with you because there is always some electricity flowing thru the circuit as I stated in an earlier post. However, I believe the tone change caused by different brands of caps would be subtle - this all depends on your ears. I have some frequency loss due to some military things, so sometimes it's hard for me to hear slight changes.

 

So your info is coming from a tech who did the work, and then on personal experience. Ok, I can handle that.

[Tom99SS]

Here is a nice read on Les Paul wiring

 

I am not saying it will give you the sound of a '59 Les Paul but it explains the basics and the difference in wiring between modern and '50's wiring. Oh, it also talks about what we are discussing in this thread.