Joe M Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Amen to you iamgreg.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hogeye Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I am responding as A) an owner of a 2011 SJ-200 Standard stamped on May 18, 2011 with the new pickgaurd design, B) educated/experienced in mechanical design and fabrication of wood and plastics and C) have seen and owned enough Gibsons over the years. First these pickgaurds are not 1/4" thick; mine measures in at 9/128 of an inch. They are translucent; you can see the rosette through it and the design is etched into the backside of the gaurd so that it won't scratch off. People are claiming that they are rubber which they are not. Rubber (even hardend) has some push and this pickgaurd does not. While this new material might be rubberized plastic and roll up when off of the guitar this would be a good thing. Having a pliable pickgaurd material versus a solid material would dampen less of the soundboard's vibration because it has more freedom to move. I traded a '91 SJ-200 in towards my new one and have also owned an '02 L-200 Emmylou with the old design and can say that I'm partial to the new pickgaurd. Another change on the new SJ-200 Standard is that the height of the bridge is lower; it's top is 1/4" above the soundboard where the '91 and L-200 were almost twice that. There is plenty of saddle height at 11/64" for a healthy break angle and room to lower the action as the years take its toll with top bellying. Currently my action is 6/64" at the 12th on the low E and 5/64" for the high E. The '91 with its tall 4 ribbon bridge had a bottomed out saddle; many people including Frank Ford find the original bridge design to be poor. The L-200 was a heighty 2 ribbon but it also had an almost bottomed out saddle. These guitars were way too young for a neck reset but because of poor design it is typical. Worth noting; my 2011 is the cleanest built of all my Bozeman built Gibby's. Ren might have left the building but he has left them building guitars that equal the Kalamazoo classics from the early '50's and before. If you prefer the vintage way the TV's are true to form but if you want a modern design not repeating the mistakes of Gibson past the Standard is it. Wow! You bring some pretty heavy credentials to the discussion. I bow to your expertise. I used the term rubber as a discriptor. Maybe I should have said softer material than the normal. I am probably wrong about this but my limited education seemed to tell me that mechanical vibration travels best thru denser, stiff material. I guess that according to you this is wrong? It seems to me that the softer material would "soak" up the vibrations and not vibrate in sympathy with the top.Damping unwanted sound vibration is always done with a softer material.You never see recording studios using cement for the back wall. It's always foam??? Like I said I bow to your expertise. By the way the pickguards are not engraved on the bottom they are painted. Everyone has to justify their decisions and it really doesn't matter that Gibson has several different height bridges to chose from. When they get a guitar in the bridge area they select the bridge that is best suited for that particular guitar. The point? You got a good fit. That's probably one of the reasons you are happy. No one is arguing the poor design of the 4 bar bridge. I'm glad you like the "New" J-200 as opposed to the traditional. Gibson is smart enough to know that everyone has their own taste. No one is saying one guard is better than another. You chose what you like. Congrats for your choise. The point again is that you are happy. The original question here was; are the new pickguards designed not to fade? Answer... Yes... Why don't they fade? Well, 'nuff said... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Nilppeznaf Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Quote "educated/experienced in mechanical design and fabrication of wood and plastics" hmmmm I'm not questioning your education iamgreg, you seem to know your stuff, do you have any experience in building instruments? I am a complete novice about build of guitars, but I have a diploma in sound engineering and know something about acoustics. I also would think a more stable/brittle ( for want of a better description ) material would vibrate in sympathy with the top of a guitar? It seems obvious to me a more pliable material would soak up the vibrations.... maybe I'm just not very bright B) also your " If you prefer the vintage way the TV's are true to form but if you want a modern design not repeating the mistakes of Gibson past the Standard is it." statement seems to imply the TV line are exact replicas of 'vintage' design and build. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but i am under the impression this is not the case. I thought Ren had taken some of the best design concepts of the vintage builds and added them to modern techniques for designing and building guitars. Hopefully not "repeating the mistakes" of the past! As I stated I would prefer the design not to wear away on my HB TV, but I'm glad that being the TV line Gibson have decided to keep with the original PG's. That's just me... I'm sure the new guards are perfectly sound and good.... I like the concept and may indeed one day purchase a guitar with the new design. All the best Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamgreg Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Del Nilppeznaf; you said of the new pickgaurd design "Does it change the sound? It's a 1/4 inch slab of rubber what do you think?" No offense but…this just isn't true. I stand by my measurement of 9/128 of an inch and it ain't no slab of rubber. Some people feel that any pickgaurd hurts the sound because it creates a dead spot where the top vibrates less. It seems to me (in theory anyway) that if the pickgaurd is softer there would be less of a dead spot because the top is more free to move. Hogeye; soundproofing a studio is a whole other story. The soft face of a sound panel is to help reduce the higher frequencies from reflecting back. Under the soft face is a rigid fiberglass panel such as OwensCorning 703 which is for absorbing the sound. The mechanical energy of sound has a tougher time traveling through hard material as opposed to a soft material. A hard material will transfer mechanical energy better but a pickgaurd is not there to transfer energy. At the end of the day I don't see these new pickgaurds hurting the sound any more than any other pickgaurd and the design won't fade. I have also heard that the TV's are a mix of concepts and not modeled after one particular year; no debate there. Most people aren't thrilled about the fading pickgaurd design so this new design indeed fixes a past mistake in my eyes. PS; it is nice that Gibson offers variations of different models because one size will never fit all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-minor7 Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Original Birds weren't scalloped, but had these ruler thin braces up till 1968. Both the Standard and the TV is scalloped in an attempt to reach less mass from another angle – 2 very different approaches that don't prevent the instruments from being closely related - sonically also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasAK Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I would agree with Hogeye and Del Nilppeznaf on theapplication of this theory. The concept is soft verses brittle material; densityis probably not the best word. A brittle material will transfer the energy wavewhere the soft material will absorb it. For an exaggerated illustration put atuning fork on a rubber ball and then put it on a crocket ball. How much effecton the guitar will these new pick guards make I have no idea. In fact it mayeven be a welcomed change. This also relates to my earlier post concerning softplastic pin. I would think Gibson and others would use some better type of materialrather than soft plastic. Again, how much notable differences does it reallymake, many say none. In the whole schemeof thing it is probably somewhat insignificant. If the guitar sounds awesome;love it, play it, and be proud of it. chasAK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Nilppeznaf Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Del Nilppeznaf; you said of the new pickgaurd design "Does it change the sound? It's a 1/4 inch slab of rubber what do you think?" No offense but…this just isn't true. It wasn't me who said this ( the above...... I was quoting other posts..sorry if it was not clear ) " I shot the sheriff but I didn't shoot no deputy " peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanishoaknc Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I got a '63' Hummingbird Custom that I purchased in '73' / With 10 yrs of wear on the PG the Bird on the PG was faded then, I guess from the 1st owners playing style / It is the same shape now as then for I play finger style with five fingers / It sounded great then and now She Talks with 49 yrs of wood tone ageing / People ask me all the time about the PG wear & I explain it was like that at 10 yrs. / But No doubt they know it is a Hummingbird / No problem with me when I got it then & I Love the Tone Now / No regrets - would do the same again. paid $350.00 in '73' & to Me Now She is Priceless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-minor7 Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I got a '63' Hummingbird Custom that I purchased in '73' . . . . - to Me Now She is Priceless Is there a chance you could post pictures of this first wave Bird, , , even record a little stripe ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blindboygrunt Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Is there a chance you could post pictures of this first wave Bird, , , even record a little stripe ?? yeah, i'd like to see and hear it too please :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanishoaknc Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Is there a chance you could post pictures of this first wave Bird, , , even record a little stripe ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanishoaknc Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Oh Well, I wish I knew how to get photo's on the page / But there are Pictures on photobucket.com under the name: spanishoaknc / Don't know how to get bits or vidio on either / at one time my photobucket link was on my Forum Page but after it crashed I thing last year the link was gone. Enjoy That Gibson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-minor7 Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 What an enjoyable real Hummingbird – Uncle Paul seems to experience the same. Wonder what the customized part is. . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanishoaknc Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 What an enjoyable real Hummingbird – Uncle Paul seems to experience the same. Wonder what the customized part is. . . . That is a good question. I have a friend in our band that has a '63' & his is cherry sides and back / My Bird is Mahogany sides & back & the back is one piece of wood / that might be it or the inlay, maybe the adjustable saddle. I'm not sure? But She is Sweet! The bridge had lifted up over the years and split so this picture is the old one / I had a luthier put a traditional saddle & bridge and replace it with bone saddle & pins. Now the Tone is .... Well You'll Know Don't mean to get side tracked on this thread :unsure: But thank you for asking. "Enjoy That Gibson" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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