Bloomberg Article on Gibson's Wood Issues

[Searcy]

Just wondering your source as for if these are individual or still company owned instruments. Again the second raid would not have been so bad (IMO) had Gibson not had such a screw up in the first one. Basically it appears that they were thumbing their noses at those in power, doing business as usual. Then the paperwork came up as being filled out incorrectly. If this had been the first offense and the Ebony shipment had not happened we would not be discussing this at all.

 

 

Pascal Vieillard, whose Atlanta-area company, A-440 Pianos, imported several antique Bösendorfers. Mr. Vieillard asked officials at the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species how to fill out the correct paperwork—which simply encouraged them to alert U.S. Customs to give his shipment added scrutiny.

 

There was never any question that the instruments were old enough to have grandfathered ivory keys. But Mr. Vieillard didn't have his paperwork straight when two-dozen federal agents came calling.

 

Facing criminal charges that might have put him in prison for years, Mr. Vieillard pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor count of violating the Lacey Act, and was handed a $17,500 fine and three years probation.

[Searcy]

Yes, filling out a forum incorrectly should be a capitol offence.

[rct]

Yes, filling out a forum incorrectly should be a capitol offence.

 

The form itself is what determines whether an offense was committed or not. Regulations like the ones I work on suppose that if you do not fill out the form(s), or if you avoid filling out the form(s), or if you err egregiously on the forms, something is up with what you are doing.

 

Fill out yer taxes any way you please, learn first hand the consequences of Formitis.

 

rct

[Searcy]

The form itself is what determines whether an offense was committed or not. Regulations like the ones I work on suppose that if you do not fill out the form(s), or if you avoid filling out the form(s), or if you err egregiously on the forms, something is up with what you are doing.

 

Fill out yer taxes any way you please, learn first hand the consequences of Formitis.

 

rct

 

Exactly. It's all just a big game of gotcha! Very little actual importance is placed on protecting the plants and animals. Instead we focus on criminalizing clerical work since it so much easier to get convictions and make money that way.

 

I ship things all over the world on a regular basis and can't believe some of the things that have come up. Our hardened criminal, Pascal Vieillard actually asked CITIES officials to help him fill out the forms on the clearly legal pianos and still ended up with a criminal record and a $17,500 fine. Gotcha!

 

We have criminalized so many things in America these days that it's not easy to make it through a day without breaking the law. What ever happened to "protect and serve"?

[zigzag]

... we focus on criminalizing clerical work since it so much easier to get convictions and make money that way...

 

 

Not so fast Searcy. One of the reasons for the second raid and the confiscation of all of those computers was to find out if this was just a clerical error or an indication of possible ongoing illegal behavior directly involving Gibson.

 

And I also believe (and I could be wrong; I often am) that Henry, himself, said that he believes this could be related to the fact that he is a non-union facility. I understand how he would align himself with anyone who would publicly support him, and in his position, I might do the same thing (shudder). But getting as cozy as he has with right wing extremists has only served to further politicize, publicize, and polarize the issue and those who are paying attention and have an opinion.

[milod]

The problem with situations such as HenryJ finds himself in is exactly as Ziggy stated: "I understand how he would align himself with anyone who would publicly support him, and in his position, I might do the same thing (shudder)."

 

We're in an era of some of the nastiest and most polarized politics in the US since I began covering government back in '65. In ways it's as polarized as during the Vietnam War and frankly at the "Washington" level, I think it's more so.

 

I do know as a fact that within some of the Obama administration they are convinced something evil is going on at Gibson. OTOH, that is what happens when you have information going up the food chain within the federal bureaucracy - or any other bureaucracy. To me, that fact functionally makes "party" politics irrelevant.

 

The bureaucracy also has the ability to make its victims guilty until proven innocent - regardless of "politics" or specific issue. Even with federal level advocates in Congress regardless of "party," that puts you into a very difficult situation due to the nature of almost any bureaucracy being very slow to reverse course.

 

I'll add that even during the recent period with a Democrat Congress and Democrat president, a Democrat Senator's bill on livestock imports and meat labeling that passed in Congress was stonewalled by the bureaucracy to the point of irrelevance.

 

So I think we make a gross error when we blame one party or another; it's also a shame that someone in HenryJ's position has little recourse to an apparent partisan alignment compared to what he would have had 30 years ago when politics were far less polar and legislators in both parties were known to break bread with each other instead of marking trees and growling.

 

m

[Searcy]

Not so fast Searcy. One of the reasons for the second raid and the confiscation of all of those computers was to find out if this was just a clerical error or an indication of possible ongoing illegal behavior directly involving Gibson.

 

 

My comment that you're quoting wasn't made in regard to Gibson. It was in regard to the piano seizures.

 

I get your meaning though Zigzag

[rct]

Exactly. It's all just a big game of gotcha! Very little actual importance is placed on protecting the plants and animals. Instead we focus on criminalizing clerical work since it so much easier to get convictions and make money that way.

 

Someone, somewhere, at some point, decided that, for instance, Madagascar Rosewood needs protection. Assume we all agree that to be true, and this protection is important. I don't care about left or right, lib or con, whatever, that is all just distraction, the point is only that in this instance, the rosewood of that country is being harvested perhaps wrongly, and we want to make sure American companies aren't doing that.

 

Do you want to pay a buncha guys to stand in the woods in Madagascar to make sure, or do you want some forms filled out that indicate that you at least tried not to rob a poor country even poorer? Because I think you'd prolly be the first one screaming at the huge waste of taxpayer money guarding some trees. The clerical work becomes the avoidance of the crime. You do it every day in your life, you just don't think about it.

 

I ship things all over the world on a regular basis and can't believe some of the things that have come up. Our hardened criminal, Pascal Vieillard actually asked CITIES officials to help him fill out the forms on the clearly legal pianos and still ended up with a criminal record and a $17,500 fine. Gotcha!

 

We have criminalized so many things in America these days that it's not easy to make it through a day without breaking the law. What ever happened to "protect and serve"?

 

I don't know. I don't know every law, I don't know every criminalized act, nor do I care. In this instance, a multi hundreds of million dollars a year company, this one right here, failed to do some 49 cent paperwork. Kinda sucks either way, because if they didn't do anything wrong, that's a damn shame they don't care to do the paperwork to validate that.

 

On the other hand, the were the only company that said hey fine, we'll be the only company to use Madagascarian stuff. And yeah, we'll get Dimone from Fast Times to broker it for us because you know, them busts earlier this year, they didn't mean nothin.

 

rct

[Searcy]

Someone, somewhere, at some point, decided that, for instance, Madagascar Rosewood needs protection. Assume we all agree that to be true, and this protection is important. I don't care about left or right, lib or con, whatever, that is all just distraction, the point is only that in this instance, the rosewood of that country is being harvested perhaps wrongly, and we want to make sure American companies aren't doing that.

 

Do you want to pay a buncha guys to stand in the woods in Madagascar to make sure, or do you want some forms filled out that indicate that you at least tried not to rob a poor country even poorer? Because I think you'd prolly be the first one screaming at the huge waste of taxpayer money guarding some trees. The clerical work becomes the avoidance of the crime. You do it every day in your life, you just don't think about it.

 

 

 

I don't know. I don't know every law, I don't know every criminalized act, nor do I care. In this instance, a multi hundreds of million dollars a year company, this one right here, failed to do some 49 cent paperwork. Kinda sucks either way, because if they didn't do anything wrong, that's a damn shame they don't care to do the paperwork to validate that.

 

On the other hand, the were the only company that said hey fine, we'll be the only company to use Madagascarian stuff. And yeah, we'll get Dimone from Fast Times to broker it for us because you know, them busts earlier this year, they didn't mean nothin.

 

rct

 

Again.... my coments quoted here were not made in regard to Gibson. They were in regard to the Bösendorfers case.

[zigzag]

I also find it interesting that a $500,000,000 sales/year company is considered "medium sized." It amazes me how much more money there is in the world than there was just 15 years ago. One billion dollars is the new one million dollars.

 

It also amazes me that there are a lot of people in the US who make more than a million dollars a year.

[bluesguitar65]

I think this is what did it. Now we are all getting some details.

 

Every company but Gibson, however, decided not to do business in Madagascar, finding the trade too risky. Gibson ended up importing ebony from a logger named Roger Thunam in northeast Madagascar who had recently been arrested for illegally trading in precious woods. In e-mails acquired by the Justice Dept., Gene Nix, the Gibson employee who spent two weeks in Madagascar, writes his superiors that there weren’t any “legitimate harvests” of ebony or rosewood available, but that Thunam could supply them with wood for the “gray market.” In court filings tied to the case, the U.S. Attorney for middle Tennessee asserts that “meant purchasing contraband.”

[Unionman]

Not so fast Searcy. One of the reasons for the second raid and the confiscation of all of those computers was to find out if this was just a clerical error or an indication of possible ongoing illegal behavior directly involving Gibson.

 

And I also believe (and I could be wrong; I often am) that Henry, himself, said that he believes this could be related to the fact that he is a non-union facility. I understand how he would align himself with anyone who would publicly support him, and in his position, I might do the same thing (shudder). But getting as cozy as he has with right wing extremists has only served to further politicize, publicize, and polarize the issue and those who are paying attention and have an opinion.

 

I haven't seen much evidence that the Obama administration has been particularly pro-labor, and they have certainly made a lot of effort to assist American business, but your comment makes me wonder if there have been any efforts to re-unionize Gibson. If it were re-unionized it would certainly make me more inclined to purchase more guitars from them, whereas associating with the right has the opposite effect.

[zigzag]

All of the press that I have read from the disgruntled Gibson employees make me suspicious that there is pro-union sentiment among some of the work force.

 

If the reports that bluesguitar65 have related are true, this could be a very serious problem for Henry and Gibson. It could be that Henry resurrects Gibson, then runs it into the ground.

 

I'm curious to know where bluesguitar65's quote came from and when that statement was made.

[Unionman]

Actually to be fair, the President did help the auto companies and good union jobs there, and appoint Craig Becker.

[milod]

There's a huge difference between gray market and black market. Any camera nut will tell you that there's a lot of gray market equipment sold quite legally. Gray market is legal sales of materials not necessarily destined for the market where it's being sold. Legal "railroad salvage" is another example. It may be the same refrigerator, but without any warranty etc.

 

Black market would be illegal in one of hundreds of ways.

 

My understanding of this Thunam fellow is that his name itself may have been the kicker.

 

As for disgruntled pro-union employees, if that be the case, I personally would never trust the integrity in any way of someone who might be so vindictive, especially to fellow workers, regardless of long-term purpose, when one figures it's not exactly a life and death situation. But then, this ain't Germany where the unions actually care about the companies making money so the employees might do better.

 

m

[zigzag]

Gray market or black market, "purchasing contraband" from lots of wood not from "legitimate harvests" sounds pretty serious to me.

[milod]

"Contraband" would suggest black market which is illegal rather than gray market which is legal.

 

If it were illegal to possess or sell, that would be black market. Gray market is legal to own or sell, just not with the same provenance as the regular market. E.g., a camera technically built for the UK sold in the US without warranty would be gray market as long as laws were not broken in its acquisition and sales. Just... good luck getting warranty work or even non-warranty repairs.

 

m

[stein]

I don't think this is a union issue, pro or against. At the most, I think the talk of it being the union against Gibson is likely anti-union attempting to use it as a way of blaming unions.

 

Firstly, Gibson is not the only non-union outfit in their field, most guitar companies are non-union. But even so, for Gibson to be a target, they would have to somehow threaten union jobs, and I don't see how they are. There really is no union jobs that I can see that would benefit from Gibson being put out of business, or harmed. Unions don't always have anything to gain by putting non-union shops out.

 

For the union, if there was anything to gain, it would be not to put Gibson out, but to convert them to a union shop. But there is nothing in these raids I can see that would support an effort to do that.

 

Perhaps if it was a union tactic, there would be a suggestion that using union workers would prevent the raids, or that the union could protect them from this. Or perhaps union suppliers ready and able to supply wood. But there is no union present around this in any of these areas.

[milod]

I may be wrong, but I think the red flag was the paperwork. OTOH, I have a hunch that one or more unhappy former employees may have involved in this somewhere.

 

No, I don't think it's a union push per se, although having seen unions putting newspapers out of business in the 70s and beyond by not recognizing changes in the biz, I would not say that they have a history of being vindictive even against their own best interests. People sometimes get that way when there are tough situations and they get charged up - on either side.

 

Yeah, I'm cynical and have enough personal experience to be critical of both sides in such matters. But I agree that unions likely are not either directly or indirectly involved.

 

I still think the problem is apparently the thickness of rosewood from India. Now if there is material that this ... individual ... outside India may have been involved with, it would be a red flag.

 

Frankly in effect I was kinda told I'd be best served by staying out of any overt pro or con on this one. That is a red flag to me that there's potentially something else going on behind the scenes that may have Gibson, whether "guilty" or "innocent" as less of a direct target as an indirect one. Seen that before too.

 

m

[stein]

MILOD:

 

Do you suppose that talk of "more going on behind the scenes" is more of a way of trying to dodge the issue?

 

I mean, if there is wrongdoing on the part of the government, and the intention is never to let all the facts be known, is it not common to say this is the case?

 

I have no doubt there are reasons that are not known or proven, and perhaps NEVER will be.

 

I realize you have your sources, and you wouldn't reveal them. I am just curious how much of this you believe, or how much you think a lot of the talk you get is more of a smokescreen.

[milod]

All I can say is that my understanding is that the word fed from the field up the food chain is that there's something nasty involved.

 

OTOH, I've heard that before in cases where one guy goes to federal prison on what in state law here is a misdemeanor because the feds were after somebody bigger and didn't have the stuff to make it work. So they crushed the little fish...

 

I've seen prosecutors honestly believe there was wrongdoing when even law enforcement did not. That includes watching an older friend functionally drop dead in front of the judge's bench prosecuting a felony case he deeply believed was right and just. The case was dismissed by the prosecutor who followed him in office who was equally convinced the case was far too iffy to put to trial.

 

<sigh> I almost wish I could have the mentality to blame somebody for vindictive politics. I can't and don't. OTOH, I also think that there is such inertia especially in the federal court system that it's incredibly frustrating to everyone else, if not even those within the system.

 

Yet... frankly I question this being a felony at the level of material involved when imported finished guitars have no such provenance of materials.

 

m

[stein]

MILROD rocks.

 

Sometimes his journalistic skills come through in such a way that he is able to enlighten us with perspective, showing us truths right in front of us. Profoundly "duh" and "genius" at the same time, with the same thing.

 

Most struggle to write something or say something with such wisdom, Milod hits it nearly every time.

 

Dude, you should think about making a career out of this. Have you thought about doing this for a living?

[stein]

OMG I laughed at that last line..... I agree maybe it time to hang up that guitar and become a writer for the local paper. I'm sure they have a great intern program..

 

 

Jus poking fun at ya M

Lol..says the guitar player as he writes on the forum.

[stein]

Obviously, there has to be more than what is allowed to be said, and we can get that just by reading the affidavit for the search warrent of the second raid.

 

In it, the case is so weak that it seems amazing that the evidence presented would even be enough for a search, let alone a conviction.

 

The justification for a search is based on a code (4407) of illegal wood being on paperwork, which DOES match the description of the wood. However, the code the wood had when it left the country it came from was under a different code for a "finished" product, where even though it matches both descriptions, the wood is legal because it complies with the description for finished wood.

 

Simply put, this is IN the affidavit, and the evidence presented even tells you the wood is legal, and even an explanation given why an illegal code came to be written instead: the wood matches both descriptions.

 

My point is that while looking toward the affidavit for an explanation, I missed the obvious: what is stated there likely has nothing to do with the real reason they were raided.

[milod]

Q: "Dude, you should think about making a career out of this. Have you thought about doing this for a living?"

 

A: "Yup. Just not smart enough to realize it ain't what it used to be ... depending on what you consider 'for a living.'" <grin>

 

I think at this point in time unless you're behind the scenes, you don't necessarily have any idea what's going on. I'm almost surprised there hasn't been a grand jury involved because, as has been stated long ago, a good prosecutor can get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich for murder.

 

So it would seem that either a lotta stuff is getting organized for a dead-bang trial, and/or something else is being investigated using Gibson computers, and/or the case is recognized as weak but prosecutors are convinced they're right and are dragging it out as long as possible for ... any number of reasons ... hoping something else will happen. Like maybe another raid?

 

m