frets Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Hi There, Just came across this forum while researching my L7/L5. It's great to see so much information being shared around. I am hoping someone can throw some light on a couple of things for me. My guitar has orange label inside the body, with serial number 74108. Same number on the back of the headstock. I am a bit confused about the model as some have read the model as a L5. The model number is hand written and very faded. It is a great sounding guitar. I have owned it for more than 30 years. I also own a '59 330 and '59 Gibson Varitone amp for that 60's valve sound and what a sound. I have had them since new. Here are a couple of pics which might help with the identification. All feedback appreciated....Many thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 It is not an L-5, but I think you can be sure it is an L-7: I am pretty sure I can see the label written L-7, but there is a blem on the label right after, and it should read L-7C. Also notice it has electronics, as well as a tailpiece that is not what you should find on an L-7. Other than those things, everything else I can see is what an L-7c should be. The "c" in the L-7c would indicate a cutaway, and if it had electronics from the factory, it should (might have) been written L-7CES, for "cutaway electric-spanish". However, I don't think such a guitar is supposed to exist. I can't tell from the pics what the pickup is, but it looks odd to me, and not something I recognize. Also, the way the pickgaurd is cut around the pickup is not standard for Gibson. So, pretty sure that would indicate they were added by someone later. Also, while most L-7's still have the original tailpiece, it is not unheard of for them to break and have to be replaced. It looks to me (from what I can tell from the not-so-good pics) to be a Gibson tailpiece, just not the correct one for an L-7. Guessing from the label, it is pre '64. Seriel # I think puts it at around 1962? Anyway, there it is, as far as I can tell. The L-7 (of that vintage) is built just like an L-5, using the same dimensions and the same woods, the only difference being a rosewood fretboard instead of the l-5'S ebony, and the maple neck is 3 pieces on the L-5. The same top, back and sides. The only real difference would be the extra bindings and inlays that an L-5 has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Versatile Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Welcome to the forums !! Excellent and informative response... Many enthusiasts for L5, L7 and ES 330 etc Live close by.... V Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobB Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Serial number 74108 cames back to a 1962 L-7C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frets Posted January 29, 2012 Author Share Posted January 29, 2012 It is not an L-5, but I think you can be sure it is an L-7: I am pretty sure I can see the label written L-7, but there is a blem on the label right after, and it should read L-7C. Also notice it has electronics, as well as a tailpiece that is not what you should find on an L-7. Other than those things, everything else I can see is what an L-7c should be. The "c" in the L-7c would indicate a cutaway, and if it had electronics from the factory, it should (might have) been written L-7CES, for "cutaway electric-spanish". However, I don't think such a guitar is supposed to exist. I can't tell from the pics what the pickup is, but it looks odd to me, and not something I recognize. Also, the way the pickgaurd is cut around the pickup is not standard for Gibson. So, pretty sure that would indicate they were added by someone later. Also, while most L-7's still have the original tailpiece, it is not unheard of for them to break and have to be replaced. It looks to me (from what I can tell from the not-so-good pics) to be a Gibson tailpiece, just not the correct one for an L-7. Guessing from the label, it is pre '64. Seriel # I think puts it at around 1962? Anyway, there it is, as far as I can tell. The L-7 (of that vintage) is built just like an L-5, using the same dimensions and the same woods, the only difference being a rosewood fretboard instead of the l-5'S ebony, and the maple neck is 3 pieces on the L-5. The same top, back and sides. The only real difference would be the extra bindings and inlays that an L-5 has. Hi, Thank you for you informative reply Stein, was surprised to see a response so fast! I have since posted new images which have a bit more detail in them than the previous ones did. Yes the pickguard has been replaced. The fretboard feels like rosewood...its a looser grain. I have just taken the pickup out to see if it is branded. There is no brand or markings on it. It looks like its heavily wound, and the cover is gold plated. Can you recognise what pickup it might be from the new images attached ? Thanks once again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfox14 Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 I didn't think there was such a guitar as the L-7CES either. This one has really got me stumped. The guitar itself is an L-7C, but with a single pickup?? Any chance the pickup & electronics were added later? If not, then I would say it's some sort of custom order job. Very cool guitar and welcome to the forum. We love posts like this - a real head scratcher. The thing that really puzzles me is the TR cover. Gibson never used a TR cover with 3 screws - only 2. Weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retrorod Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Nice looking guitar! That was my next question (about the pickup). It would be sweet if it was a Gibson PAF....Ha! I cannot tell what make it is by the pictures supplied. Safe to say that it is NOT a Gibson pickup and not original to the guitar though. RRod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 I didn't think there was such a guitar as the L-7CES either. This one has really got me stumped. The guitar itself is an L-7C, but with a single pickup?? Any chance the pickup & electronics were added later? If not, then I would say it's some sort of custom order job. Very cool guitar and welcome to the forum. We love posts like this - a real head scratcher. The thing that really puzzles me is the TR cover. Gibson never used a TR cover with 3 screws - only 2. Weird. Paul, I'm guessing the three-screw TR cover is a retrofit, like the pickup. I have seen Gibsons where the small section of wood between the nut and the TR compression washer is damaged or has split out, leaving no place for the lower TR cover screw. In that case, sometimes you see people install three-screw TR covers. That may have happened here. Just a guess, as there's no reason to doubt the guitar's authenticity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimt Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Thats Cool L7c and a decent year...... It could of been a special Order... Who knows.. But More than likely Not...the volume /tone controls on the outer edge look a bit off... how ever I would like to see a picture of the back of the pickup if possible... The Truss rod cover is Not Gibson.. Not a Big deal.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimR56 Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 It's pretty clear to me that this is not a custom-order guitar. Even if the pickup was recognizable, the location of the vol/tone knobs is wrong (opposite side of the f-hole from the standard Gibson placement). The non-Gibson pickguard and incorrect tailpiece and TR cover only add to the overall picture here (that the guitar was previously owned by someone who wasn't concerned about keeping the guitar and its parts original). Still a very nice guitar, and it's not surprising that you've enjoyed it for 30 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Serial number 74108 cames back to a 1962 L-7C. I think that confirms it is not a custom order, and the fact it comes up as an L-7c from Gibson confirms a lot. Like everyone else here, I have never seen that pup before. You may never know what it is. Now that I can see the pup though, my theory is that when the pup was added, the hardware on the body might have been changed to match. L-7's did not have gold. I don't think it is all that odd that someone would have altered the guitar this way, because L-7's were not available with electronics, and an L-7 was just another guitar long ago, although still a good one. If one wanted or needed a pup, it would have been worth doing. If it was really important to find out, the best clue might be to check the pot dates. That would tell you the most on when it was done. The important thing is, how does it SOUND? 1962, if you were after an archtop (or any Gibson) that sounded great and PLAYED great, that might be the one to have. And judging by the effort of swapping hardware, is it possible the pup was chosen because of a sound advantage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frets Posted January 30, 2012 Author Share Posted January 30, 2012 Thats Cool L7c and a decent year...... It could of been a special Order... Who knows.. But More than likely Not...the volume /tone controls on the outer edge look a bit off... how ever I would like to see a picture of the back of the pickup if possible... The Truss rod cover is Not Gibson.. Not a Big deal.. You guys are great ! Your attention to detail has got me wanting to dig more now. Will pull of the PUP again and post image later. Will also check out the dates on the pots. Its funny how for so many years your just happy to have it sitting around and then.... your on a mission ! Thanks so much. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfox14 Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Paul, I'm guessing the three-screw TR cover is a retrofit, like the pickup. I have seen Gibsons where the small section of wood between the nut and the TR compression washer is damaged or has split out, leaving no place for the lower TR cover screw. In that case, sometimes you see people install three-screw TR covers. That may have happened here. Just a guess, as there's no reason to doubt the guitar's authenticity. Nick, I agree that the TR cover is not original, but doesn't mean the guitar is not legit. You are probably right about the damage to the area where the screw would normally go. Hopw much do you think the value is hurt by things like the wrong TR cover and the added pickup? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Hopw much do you think the value is hurt by things like the wrong TR cover and the added pickup? I don't think the TR cover is a big deal, since you could make a competent repair to correct it. The pickup, on the other hand, is an irreversible change--hole cut in the top--and has to make a big difference. Usually when you put a pickup on an acoustic L-7, in the old days you would put a removable DeArmond (at least that's what I've seen, and is what came with mine), and today, a removable Benedetto. Those would usually be neutral or positive on value, I think, with a significant plus for a well-done Benedetto installation. L-5 Larry is the expert on that one. Cutting a hole in the top of the guitar is a bigger deal, and you would need to sell it to someone who was purely a player. The price of L-7's is all over the place right now. I see a lot on the market asking $3K plus, for non-cutaway models. Don't see many of those selling, however. I know even with the upgrades I made to my '47, bought just a few months ago (new case, new tuners, new finger rest), I've only got about half that amount in mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retrorod Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 And from the photos that I have seen, Nick....a superb example! Excuse me while I get a napkin..... (drooling) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 I got curious and searched the GOOGLE for a pup like this one. I got nothing. And, I should add, I have never seen another like it. I tried images of Bartolini and DeArmond. I couldn't find anything that resembles the construction details of that one. The internet is a cool resource. You can search "images", and if and when you find something, it usually can take you to a site, and from there you can try and make a judgement if the info is credible. But, alas, there has to be somewhere to start. If you could find something, ANYTHING written on the pup, or even an idea of what it could be, you could type that into GOOGLE and see if it pulls up anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Coincidence...I was just talking with a bro last night and we were discussing the 'vintage' market, and about acrhtops. I think this is about the worst time to sell, or try and value an archtop. Prices are LOW, and many are actually selling for really low. And by low, I mean below other guitars from the same year/era, and below cheaper guitars or models that were much cheaper. The thing is, when it comes to a particular "type" of construction, the archtop is the most time consuming and costly to make. What archtops are going for these days is only but a fraction of what it cost to have them made. So, "all over the place" in terms of cash value is accurate, in that there is a WIDE range of prices being asked, and all based on reasonable factors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimR56 Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 I don't think the TR cover is a big deal, since you could make a competent repair to correct it. The pickup, on the other hand, is an irreversible change--hole cut in the top--and has to make a big difference. Usually when you put a pickup on an acoustic L-7, in the old days you would put a removable DeArmond (at least that's what I've seen, and is what came with mine), and today, a removable Benedetto. Those would usually be neutral or positive on value, I think, with a significant plus for a well-done Benedetto installation. L-5 Larry is the expert on that one. Cutting a hole in the top of the guitar is a bigger deal, and you would need to sell it to someone who was purely a player. In terms of keeping with tradition, another good choice would have been a Gibson "McCarty" unit (one or two pickups built into a pickguard), which was used on the L7CE and L7CED from 1948-1954: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retrorod Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 The pickup looks cheaply made to me. Not sure how it sounds, bu the P'up does not look quality.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimR56 Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 I was going to post this earlier, but I thought frets might want to see what a custom order L5 looks like. This is my '66, which was ordered with a Charlie Christian pickup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 The pickup looks cheaply made to me. Not sure how it sounds, bu the P'up does not look quality.... I don't know...it seems to be completely sealed, with the casing all the way to the bottom. The screws/poles on the top seem to be rather flat and precision made. I might say that as far as manufacture, more effort has been made in tooling and precision with this than most. It really doesn't prove anything either way, because the quality inside or the sound may be a whole different matter. (as you allude to). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 I was going to post this earlier, but I thought frets might want to see what a custom order L5 looks like. This is my '66, which was ordered with a Charlie Christian pickup: That's REALLY nice, Jim! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frets Posted January 31, 2012 Author Share Posted January 31, 2012 I was going to post this earlier, but I thought frets might want to see what a custom order L5 looks like. This is my '66, which was ordered with a Charlie Christian pickup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frets Posted January 31, 2012 Author Share Posted January 31, 2012 I was going to post this earlier, but I thought frets might want to see what a custom order L5 looks like. This is my '66, which was ordered with a Charlie Christian pickup: Oh....this looks beautiful. Very nice. Thanks for posting photo Jim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L5Larry Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 In terms of keeping with tradition, another good choice would have been a Gibson "McCarty" unit (one or two pickups built into a pickguard), which was used on the L7CE and L7CED from 1948-1954: What difference does this make. Somebody has already taken a jigsaw and power drill to this guitar! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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