Fred Patton Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 I find myself on the horns of a dilemma. I've got an Epi Budokan on order. I've always loved the look of this guitar, and jumped at the opportunity to get a 3-pickup LP that was at least related to Gibson. However... My local guitar shop has a 2007 Gibson GOTW #42, basically the same guitar, minus the pickguard. It's almost 4 times the cost of the Budokan, but I decided I owed to myself to sit down with it, some Epis and some other, less pricey Gibsons just to see if my newbie fingers could tell the difference. I don't know if I really could tell the difference - it may have been psychological, but it did seem like the Gibsons were nicer to play, even the Studios. And it didn't help that one of the Epis had bad wiring or something that meant the neck pickup didn't work. However, I keep reading that the lower-end Gibsons have their own set of quality issues. So, here's the question. Am I being silly? The Budokan is going to be $799, and have a particular look. There are Gibson LP Studios starting near that price. Am I better off going for one of those? (I've kind of written off the idea of getting the GOTW, though if I thought I could afford it, I'd jump at it. But I really can't justify the cost at my skill level.) I'd love to get your opinions on this. Thanks! Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNick Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Welcome Fred. I think we have all been hung up on those horns before. Happens to me everyday. Get the Budokan out of the way first, then start saving for a Gibson if you like. I have gone that route before. Today I have 1 Gibson left. I have 1 Epiphone LP. I have several other guitars, some store bought some i have put together from parts. It never ends. Get the Budokan first and think of it as a future investment. It won't go up that much but you'll have one slick looking guitar to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Well....Gibson's do retain their re-sale value, a bit more...IF that's any consolation/consideration? Otherwise, I'd say buy whichever one feels, and sounds the best...providing they're of comparable quality, fit and finish wise, given the obvious price differences. Only YOU, will know if the Gibson is worth the price difference. Epi's are Great guitars, on their own...but, especially at their price point. Good Luck, on the decision! CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonzoboy Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Go for the Epi,I have 6 Epis and each one is a wonderful guitar and a couple are downright spectacular. Epiphones give about the best bang for the buck in the guitar world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hawkfanatic Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Well, i'm NOT a newbie,and while that doesn't mean my word is the last one, it does mean after 40 years i have an arguable but very informed opinion on this. I'd say get the Epi. You must understand that companies like gibson who sell build a lot of instruments in the multi thousands of dollars range have a lot to lose if they don't do everything in thier power to make you believe there is a 2 or 3 thousand dollar difference in quality between that stuff and thier lower line epiphones. Aside from pickup and pots and such, which are often replaced even on higher end stuff anyways, there is not 2 or 3 grand difference. Not even close. For you, a newbie especially, i would strongly suggest getting the epi. With a good setup it can and will play as well as any gibson, and tonally it will be excellent and probably as good given equal pickups. The point of diminishing returns was much higher a few years ago than it is today. Today there are literally guitars in what used to be the budget category that are giving high end guitars a run for thier money or even match or surpassing them. I have a chinese recording king acoustic that has proven to be my all time fav acoustic, beating out all the previous high end ones i've owned including gibsons, martins, larrivee, and some vintage stuff. I paid $350 for it ! I was truly shocked. And while i'm a fender man as electrics go, i have had a lot of gibsons and gibson style guitars over the years and my fav to date by far is my epiphone nighthawk. I'm truly blown away at whats happening in the guitar market today. I see zero need to ever spend more than a grand at the absolute most to get a fantastic example of what i want. If money is no object to you then that may be a different story. Not for me tho, as i have actually come to prefer cheaper guitars ! Not sure why this is, but the higher end stuff i have owned in the last say 10 years have all left me cold, and i've bonded in a huge way with a lot of cheap guitars that turned out to be fantastic. I say go with the epi and spend a few buck with a good tech and have him install CTS pots and switch and a good setup. You'll still be in the dirt cheap category. Better yet, learn to do all that stuff yourself and save a lot of money throughout your life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damian Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Welcome Fred. I think we have all been hung up on those horns before. Happens to me everyday. Get the Budokan out of the way first, then start saving for a Gibson if you like. Get the Budokan first and think of it as a future investment. It won't go up that much but you'll have one slick looking guitar to play. IMHO, all good advice above............I also say go for the Budokan..............Then, in time, get a new or used Gibson............ I own many geetars, including Gibbys and Epis.......Next is another Epi............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 I am going to disagree with most here and say go for the Gibby. I agree 'mostly' with what everyone has said about it here^^, but for me, the charm of an EPI is the lower price, and the fact you can get a lot of a Gibby for so cheap. THAT makes an Epi cool, in my book. But, once you start getting into the higher priced Epi's that approach the cost of a Gibson, it doesn't make sense to me anymore. The ONLY exception would be if looks were more of a concern, (nothing wrong with that) and you feel like you want a 'look' that you can't get with a less expensive Gibby. Other than that, as far as quality, sound, and playability, the Gibby will be better than the Epi in every area. (On the whole-isolated examples could always be an exception at any price). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanH Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 I am one who used to own a couple of Epi LPs and sold them after having bought, in one case a Gibson LP Humbuckers Tribute and, in the other, a MIJ Ibanez RG1570. My take is this: -Epis are fantastic guitars for the money and, with a few upgrades (especially pickups), you can get very close to the Gibson sound. However, think carefully how much you would need to spend on the upgrade compared to the cost of the Gibby you're looking at. -Hardware aside, the woods and craftsmanship on a Gibson are noticably better (IMO). This can make a difference with the feel of neck in particular and this is the reason I sold my Epi LPs. As I got better, the difference in feel between my Epis and my 'better' guitars became more noticable. An exception to this playability issue lies with the Epi Prophecy series with their slick ebony fingerboards. Given that their hardware and electrics are already upgraded, Prophecies make for a fantastic purchase. BTW, I never got that slick feeling with the (also pre-upgraded) recent run of Epi Tribute/1959 LPs. The hardware was excellent but the feel, to me, was no different to the ordinary Epi LP standard. -Gibsons can be a rip off. Well, you do pay for the name to an extent but, in many cases, you pay a very high premium for features you don't actually need and which can actually get in the way; namely inlays, binding and full thickness lacquer. However, that also means that there are some excellent value Gibsons out there that don't have these features. For me, that is good news because I prefer the stripped down look and, in particular, feel of my faded Gibsons. Overall, my advice is this: -If you are a relative beginner, buy an Epi LP Studio- very good price (less bling), set neck = sustain, and very worthy of an upgrade in pickups -If you are a more experienced player and don't mind (or prefer) less bling, buy a Gibson LP faded model- there are plenty of these models about now. If you're really on a tight budget, get one of their new Melody Maker series. -If you are a more experienced player and like the bling, get an Epi Prophecy- lovely slick necks and no need to upgrade at all. All the above options, IMO, give you the best value money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barcham Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 stein, have you looked at the specs of the Budokan? It surpasses a low end Gibson studio in every way other than the name on the headstock and nitro, as do many other recent Epiphone offerings many of which come with Gibson pups and upgraded electronics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 stein, have you looked at the specs of the Budokan? It surpasses a low end Gibson studio in every way other than the name on the headstock and nitro, as do many other recent Epiphone offerings many of which come with Gibson pups and upgraded electronics. It looks like a nice guitar, but "surpass" might be a matter of opinion. All Epi's are made to the 'Gibson' spec. I think ALANH's perspective says it pretty good: on the whole, a Gibson is going to be made better overall, with qualities that are more important to PLAYING it than looking at it. And while it is still only other's opinions, I think for the most part the more experienced a player is, the more difference there will be noticed beyond the 'specs' that are listed in most sales literature. Not saying the Epi is bad or has serious faults that prevent it from being a good guitar, but when the price gets up to where it is, then it only makes sense to compare it to others in the same price category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Patton Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 Great input, everybody! Still thinking things through, although I have a lot of time, as the order isn't due until May or so. I admit that part of me was thinking, "Wow, here's a chance to own the guitar I've wanted since I was a teenager at a semi-reasonable price." I put the order in on the Budokan figuring I could cancel it if I needed to. (A few days after I did, all of the pre-orders online at least were spoken for.) And my experience with the ES-175 was positive enough that I figured it would be a good way to go. I just got to thinking that perhaps a "real" Gibson was a better way to go, especially since the Budokan was already up in Studio range. I'm not sure how Gibson Studio electronics would compare to the Dimarzios on the Budokan, as compared to standard Epi pickups for a higher end LP. I'm sure there would be a difference in the neck and setup, although I'm guessing (help me out here) that either would probably require a good setup before being really optimum. I appreciate all the advice! Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damian Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Happy one year anniversity Stein............. [thumbup] ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Happy one year anniversity Stein............. [thumbup] ........ Is it?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Incredible eye there Sir! I have been on the forum a whole year. Pretty cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Mr. Patton: Gibson uses the same quality of electronics in all their guitars, for the most part. As far pickups, they may use different types in different guitars, and sometimes puts the most popular or 'trendiest' in some models, but the quality of the different humbuckers they use are the same. As for the rest of the electronics (switches, pots, caps, wire) some are wired differently, but the switches and pots are the same. IF you were concerned with the quality of specs of those, they are so cheap to switch out I wouldn't even make it a consideration. Same with the Epiphones. The switches, wiring, pots and such are of low quality and much lower than the Gibby, but they are so cheap to upgrade I would just plan on it if you keep the guitar for any length of time that they fail. As for standard Epi pickups, most agree they don't sound nearly as good as the Gibby ones, and most would agree they are a weak point. As for overall quality, I think most (me included) tend to feel that Gibby pups made now are about equal to Dimarzio in overall quality, and both are up there with the best. At that point of comparing 'high end' pups, it is a matter of preference as much as anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antwhi2001 Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Having just bought a high-price point Chinese Epi (339 Ultra) I agree with Stein. Buy a Gibson. Epi are great if you cannot afford the equivalent Gibson. The affordability is the attraction. CB is right about resale value too. Epi are tempting some of us to pay out higher prices by raising their specs and picking some very attractive new models. However, the quality is often a let-down. It's not just me; you don't have to search the net for long to find reviews of Epis with rattling/buzzing bass strings, faulty switches etc. Unfortunately it seems to happen just as frequently on the high-end models as it does on the low-end. You don't tend to get those sort of faults on Gibsons; you tend to see complaints about sloppy finishes but generally guitars that work well. I've just spent the whole weekend on and off trying to get good low action on a new 339, and it's still not great. It only ever takes me about an hour with a Gibson. In this scenario I would either (a) buy a low-end Gibson (because even their low-end models have high-end components and fretwork) or buy a second-hand Epi Les Paul, putting Dimarzios in it if that's what you want. That would get you a good usable Les Paul, better value for money, and a lower hit on resale value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowman Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I was in kinda of that posiion also , I had to to factor my skill level and how much I would have time to play it. I ended geting an Epe LP standered plus top for $400. (seen it retail from 550 to 600) Gives me some rome for some upgrades without over investing in that model. Right now the guitar is great , its got that BALLSEY Gibson sound which was what I was after. For me it was how much did I want to spend , not how much I could. You say to yourself "for a few more bucks I can get this" but where do you stop? I did the same thing , next thing Im looking at a lower end Gibby and had to stop myself.Ive been an Ace fan since age 8 so I say go with the Epi thats a sick looking guitar and with limited production I would have to say It should hold its value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Patton Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 Lots of variables, that's for sure! One thing I don't know is where the Budokan will be made. Once it comes in, I'll take some time while it's still in the shop to make sure it's in good shape, no fret buzz, etc. However, I'll also do what I did the other day, and play it side by side with a couple of Gibsons and other Epis for immediate comparison. I'm new enough now that by the time it comes in, I should be a lot better player! I'm persuaded the pups will be good (DiMarzios), and the other electronics will be disposable (but replaceable for cheap). If the build quality is decent, I suspect I'll go for it. Otherwise, I'll tell them no thanks, and go for a Studio. I'm sure they won't have any objections either way. And if I do go for the Budokan, I can always use the carrot of a Gibson as a reward for reaching some other improvement milestone down the line. The Epi will at least look good hanging on the wall. :) Great discussion. Thanks for all your input! Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNick Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Hey Fred..... Check this out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lqxsm6w7m5o&feature=related Tone wise it is very close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Another question, Fred....what kind of Amp, do you now own. Personally, I've found that a Great Amp, makes a lot more difference, in sound/tone, than any particular guitar, within the same "type" (humbucker to humbucker, single coil, to single coil) etc. If you have a great amp, already, then you're back to your original dilemma! However, if your amp is "lacking" in any way, you might consider the difference in price, Epi Vs Gibby...get the Epi, and use the money saved, and get a much better amp! Just a thought... CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Zeplin Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Another question, Fred....what kind of Amp, do you now own. Personally, I've found that a Great Amp, makes a lot more difference, in sound/tone, than any particular guitar, within the same "type" (humbucker to humbucker, single coil, to single coil) etc. If you have a great amp, already, then you're back to your original dilemma! However, if your amp is "lacking" in any way, you might consider the difference in price, Epi Vs Gibby...get the Epi, and use the money saved, and get a much better amp! Just a thought... CB Great advice! Your guitar is only as good as the weakest link in your signal chain. If unsure take your guitar to a music store and play it through some decent amps. Not knocking anybody's choices but a great guitar through a POS amp will also sound like a POS. My $0.02 Z. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Patton Posted February 14, 2012 Author Share Posted February 14, 2012 Nice video! I can definitely tell the difference, but am not sure which I prefer. Audio quality isn't the best on my computer... Good point about the amp. As a recovery audiophile, I am well aware of the whole "weakest link" problem, but also aware of how easily it is solved with the injection of copious quantities of cash. Currently, I'm using a Fender Mustang 1, which from what I can tell really isn't bad as a practice amp. I'm only playing in my home's music room, which is pretty compact, and likely won't be gigging anytime soon. :lol: Otherwise, I would probably run it straight into my Roland 8-track for recording. My local guitar shop has an amazing collection of new and used amps of all sorts, from $50 Peaveys to some incredibly expensive vintage models. That was how I auditioned my ES-175. (Or rather, had a talented teenager who happened to be on hand audition it for me.) So I'll make sure when it arrives that I plug it into something better than what I have to check it out. Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texasbluezman Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 I have been an Ace fan for 25 years now. Get the Budokan! Would of got one myself, but I play blues now. I just bought me an Epi LPC. I was gonna get a Gibby Trad. Pro, but I stepped back and thought about my situation. I don't play out anymore (I did starting jamming some blues with some guys I met through CL though), my job takes alot of my time, and I had $400 to spare (not $2000). I still has GAS for a Gibson Trad., but it's just not feasible right now. In my last band, I recorded (and played 2 shows)at a very good studio with an Epi LP Studio with SD JB and '59 pups. Sound guy at the club said it was so easy getting good sound through the PA. Recordings are here: www.myspace.com/Kemistery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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