Del Nilppeznaf Posted February 19, 2012 Posted February 19, 2012 Just having a ponder. Are there any specif years/periods that are classed as being Classic/Vintage , like a wine say. And what's folks thoughts on the modern era? From reading the forum seems a hell of a lot of people are very happy with lots of the modern builds ( of course takin into consideration each guitar being its own ) Just from reading here and research done on web I'm sort of thinking these last few years of Gibson and the TV line in particular may turn out to be a classic era? The great years of Ren maybe I am biased of course..... and what do i know! not much thats for sure ,,, anythoughts? thanks
gotomsdos Posted February 19, 2012 Posted February 19, 2012 I suppose 20s, 30s, 40s to 55 are classic era for Gibson round shoulder D. As far as round shoulder D is concerned, year 55 is the bordery, coz many adjustments started from year 55 to make it modern, most of the adjustments are considered bad, they are 20 frets, braces unscalloped, belly bridge, adjustable saddle, even plastic bridge, etc, my God...
E-minor7 Posted February 19, 2012 Posted February 19, 2012 – You are a common guest here (guest isn't the right word) so I'm sure you know quite a lot already. Let me focus on the squares and share my humble opinion (which might be supported by some people here) : Hummingbirds would be from the birth in 1960 to 1967 – Talking Southern Jumbos and Country & Westerns it would be from 1962 to '67. If you want or accept heavier bracing go further to 1969 and if you have problems with narrower nuts beware from '65 to '67. I know too little about Doves and Heritage's, but in 1968/69 the J-45 grows square shoulders and fortified bracing. They as the others become problematic in the following decade. The level of contemporary acoustic Gibsons have been discussed here a few times. All to unconditional advantage of Bozeman and the Ferguson era. Some went as far as using the phrase New Golden Age. Yes, you heard me Del Nilp . . . . .
jt Posted February 19, 2012 Posted February 19, 2012 Well, I think that there are distinct periods that were particularly good. 12 fret L flattops from 1930 through circa 1932. The lightest, most responsive guitars that Gibson ever built. 14 fret L flattops from circa 1932 until WWII. Built a bit more heavily with each successive year, but still very responsive and a bit louder, though not as sweet, as the 12 fretters. Jumbos, j-35s, Smecks: jumbos from 1934-36 and then its replacement, the J-35, from then until WWII. As these guitars approach wartime, they take on a more modern 2 1/8 string spacing at the saddle as compared with the finger picking friendly 2 3/8 of earlier models. These come in 2 and 3 tone bars, scalloped and unscalloped. All good, all different. J-45, J-50, SJ: 1942 through 1946. Still good through the loss of scalloped bracing in 1955, but those wartime guitars, especially pre mid 1944 (when Gibson switched from Adirondack to Sitka for tops) are, imho, the best. J-200s: 2 distinct periods: the rosewood models from 1938 to about 1942 and the maple models from 1947 to 1955. Square shoulder Hummingbirds and Doves: the early years, about 1962-65. Some details then changed, including the shape of the bridge. Great rhythm guitars, though, for other uses, not close to those wartime and pre-war slope shoulder guitars.
JuanCarlosVejar Posted February 19, 2012 Posted February 19, 2012 just as a joke I was going to place 2007 lol because of the TV line but DEL N . stated this in his post . I remember asking the members about the TV line and most of you guys said that Gibson did something right with those so in my mind this line will be sought after in the future . plus the standards line being built is pretty good from what I've heard JC
pfox14 Posted February 19, 2012 Posted February 19, 2012 The "Golden Age" of Gibson was when Ted McCarty was running the company from 1948-1968, but I think this was the golden age for electric guitars more so than acoustics. The golden age for Gibson acoustics was the pre-war era 1930-1942. IMHO
jt Posted February 19, 2012 Posted February 19, 2012 The "Golden Age" of Gibson was when Ted McCarty was running the company from 1948-1968, but I think this was the golden age for electric guitars more so than acoustics. The golden age for Gibson acoustics was the pre-war era 1930-1942. IMHO Succinctly and, IMHO, accurately put.
zombywoof Posted February 19, 2012 Posted February 19, 2012 The "Golden Age" of Gibson was when Ted McCarty was running the company from 1948-1968, but I think this was the golden age for electric guitars more so than acoustics. The golden age for Gibson acoustics was the pre-war era 1930-1942. IMHO Amen (although McCarty left Gibson in 1966 not 1968). The pinnacle of guitar building was the late 1930s to early 1940s. Every freakin' guitar today goes back to what those guys did. 1943 to 1945 were pretty iffy years. Gibson even stopped production of the SJ-200 rather than have to take shortcuts in making them (their competitors over at Epiphone stopped production of all flat top guitars during those years). The McCarty years were another "Golden Era." While he is best known for the electrics his shop produced, the quality of acoustics remained high. But what McCarty brought with him was a way of designing and building guitars. Employees were cross-trained and managers came up from the floor not from the outside. Each guitar was inspected something like 160 times during the build process. To me, the end came in 1965 when Arnie Berlin (the "in" in Norlin) took over CMI from his father. For the first time the shots at Gibson were being called by college educated business guys and not guys who knew how to build guitars. And quality suffered. McCarty pretty much just phoned it in in 1965 and then was finally forced out the following year - the official reason involving his decision to acquire Bigsby. I also think too much stock is put in the scallop v. non-scallop guitars. While I think the move was not all that great for the smaller body guitars, the big box slope shoulder jumbos made from '55 to '64 were killer instruments (even with the thinner necks started in 1960, ASJ bridges and such). While I find them to not have quite the lower end of the earlier guitars, I also find them to be a bit punchier and quicker. Hey, Martin stopped using scallop braces a decade before Gibson did and you don't see too many folks turning their nose up at ther guitars made in the 1950s. The thing is though, in '65 when Gibson began to produce as many guitars as they could as cheaply as possible, McCarty and his system had to go.
jt Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 1943 to 1945 were pretty iffy years. Wow, we've got very different opinions about those wartime Gibsons. Sure, Gibson was struggling during the war, but, imho, the result was some great improvising and some of the finest guitars that the company ever made. Remember, all of those legendary rosewood SJs shipped during 1943. Thsoe reosewood, FON 910 SJs were the first SJs, so all Banner SJs shipped during the years you cite. About 60% of the great wartime LG-3s shipped in 1943 (the remainder shipped in 1942). And, all but one of my favorite models ever, the X-braced, wartime LG-1 shipped in 1943. The other one shipped in 1944. I could write a book about those years at Gibson.
Del Nilppeznaf Posted February 20, 2012 Author Posted February 20, 2012 Thanks people, some great info'. Apart form these Classic/ Golden periods, I sincerely believe Gibson have also been producing some outstanding guitars in recent years, along with in the periods mentioned. From what I am discovering / assuming; we may have just passed through another GOLDEN/CLASSIC PERIOD, just my humble opinion though. Long may it continue.
pfox14 Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 Wow, we've got very different opinions about those wartime Gibsons. Sure, Gibson was struggling during the war, but, imho, the result was some great improvising and some of the finest guitars that the company ever made. Remember, all of those legendary rosewood SJs shipped during 1943. Thsoe reosewood, FON 910 SJs were the first SJs, so all Banner SJs shipped during the years you cite. About 60% of the great wartime LG-3s shipped in 1943 (the remainder shipped in 1942). And, all but one of my favorite models ever, the X-braced, wartime LG-1 shipped in 1943. The other one shipped in 1944. I could write a book about those years at Gibson. No way you can discount the war years when it comes to Gibson. Somehow they were able to produce some amazing instruments with a completely new workforce (almost all women). I agree with JT 100%.
gotomsdos Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 ...all of those legendary rosewood SJs shipped during 1943. Thsoe reosewood, FON 910 SJs were the first SJs,... SJs were introduced from 1942, the same year as J45.
jt Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 SJs were introduced from 1942, the same year as J45. Not so. No SJs shipped until 1943. J-45s, J-50s, LG-2s, and LG-3s shipped in 1942. But, no SJs or LG-1s.
gotomsdos Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 Not so. No SJs shipped until 1943. J-45s, J-50s, LG-2s, and LG-3s shipped in 1942. But, no SJs or LG-1s. Ooops, check it out please: http://home.provide.net/~cfh/gibson6.html#sj I wonder if the above info is correct, but it does have the content of 1942.
gotomsdos Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 Not so. No SJs shipped until 1943. J-45s, J-50s, LG-2s, and LG-3s shipped in 1942. But, no SJs or LG-1s. Ooops, check it out please: http://home.provide.net/~cfh/gibson6.html#sj I wonder if the above info is correct, but it does have the content of 1942 SJ. Besides, there is a 1942 SJ for sale: http://www.vintageandrare.com/product/Gibson-Southern-Jumbo-1942-18817
jt Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 Ooops, check it out please: http://home.provide.net/~cfh/gibson6.html#sj I wonder if the above info is correct, but it does have the content of 1942 SJ. No, the information on Clay's site is not correct. My book is now with my publisher, Michigan State University Press. Until it hits the bookstores, the best I can offer in information is my related site: BannerGibsons.com.
gotomsdos Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 No, the information on Clay's site is not correct. My book is now with my publisher, Michigan State University Press. Until it hits the bookstores, the best I can offer in information is my related site: BannerGibsons.com. Oh, great, I'll read it.. thank you..
jt Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 Oh, great, I'll read it.. thank you.. Thanks for your interest! I've combed through Gibson's ledgers, counted all of the Banner guitars, tracked at least 1 for each year from the factory to the retail store that wold it, and I interviewed a dozen people who worked in the factory during WWII. It's been a 5 year labor of love.
J-1854Me Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 Back to the OP's query: "Are there any specif years/periods that are classed as being Classic/Vintage , like a wine say.... And what's folks thoughts on the modern era?" My thoughts are that, in terms of flattops specifically, the late 1920s to the mid-1960s would be the "Classic Years". The trouble is that it covers a broad range of flattop production (very broad, to say the least!), with "subsets" of years of production for certain models (or groups of models). If we dial the range down too tightly, we exclude lots of examples of really fine instruments, some of which were not extant prior to those periods. For example, if we set, say, 1949 as the upper boundary, we exclude Hummingbirds, Country Westerns, J-185s (no!!), and the vaunted LG-0. So I would tend to think of there being a series of 'epochs' of classic years, with significant 'turning points', perhaps within them. I would resist distilling "classic Gibson years" to only a handful of years in the 1930s and 1940s -- surely there were some stellar examples produced in lots of those periods, either on purpose or by accident... And I would agree that there have been (and continue to be), in the last 23 years, a lot of really fine Gibson acoustics produced too. Perhaps in 30 years, someone can resurrect this thread and we'll have a poll! Fred
Mojorule Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 No, the information on Clay's site is not correct. My book is now with my publisher, Michigan State University Press. Until it hits the bookstores, the best I can offer in information is my related site: BannerGibsons.com. John, what is the story behind the error which had people talking about 1942 SJs for so long? I've seen one of (tpbiii) Tom's videos where he plays his SJ and says that people thought that they were first produced in 1942 until recently, which presumably means until you did your research. But why did people previously assume 1942? Your findings would suggest that shipping ledgers are pretty clear on the matter. Edit: well indeed Tom even names you as the discoverer of the real date - I've found the video, and am posting it for the nth time, just because his SJ sounds so very, very nice. http://vimeo.com/2791397
Del Nilppeznaf Posted February 20, 2012 Author Posted February 20, 2012 Edit: well indeed Tom even names you as the discoverer of the real date - I've found the video, and am posting it for the nth time, just because his SJ sounds so very, very nice. http://vimeo.com/2791397 Thanks for that link Mojo.. great stuff.. Tom's a dude aint he
jt Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 John, what is the story behind the error which had people talking about 1942 SJs for so long? I've seen one of (tpbiii) Tom's videos where he plays his SJ and says that people thought that they were first produced in 1942 until recently, which presumably means until you did your research. But why did people previously assume 1942? Your findings would suggest that shipping ledgers are pretty clear on the matter. Edit: well indeed Tom even names you as the discoverer of the real date - I've found the video, and am posting it for the nth time, just because his SJ sounds so very, very nice. http://vimeo.com/2791397 Mojo, Yes, I talked my way into Gibson to look through the ledger. They are very clear: no SJs until 1943. A lot of earlier researchers and writers just didn't have the proper information and so had to guess.
Mojorule Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 Mojo, Yes, I talked my way into Gibson to look through the ledger. They are very clear: no SJs until 1943. A lot of earlier researchers and writers just didn't have the proper information and so had to guess. I see, so it's just a case of educated guesses against, well, scholarship. How does one talk one's way into Gibson? Did you do that eyebrow raise and smile that you do in all your videos?
rar Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 I also think too much stock is put in the scallop v. non-scallop guitars. ... +1 I'm not saying that it doesn't make a difference. On the contrary, I much prefer late '50s J-45s/50s (non-ADJ) models to their early '50s counterparts. Early '50s models tend to sound like "watered-down" '40s models, pretty boring compared to the banner-era versions, while the late '50s models took things in an interesting new tonal direction. (Everybody's ears are different, but I'm not completely alone in thinking this.) One thing I haven't seen explicitly observed is that the decline typically associated with the '60s was not uniform across the product line. Late '50s J-200 are generally pretty unimpressive, and the model was completely ruined by 1960. On the other hand, some other models were just fine through the early '60s. So I don't see how a single model-independent cutoff date makes much sense. Generally, the most useful question to ask is "What was the Golden Era for Model X?", which seems to be the one many are answering. -- Bob R
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