gotomsdos Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 Hi, folks! SJ==Southern Jumbo We know that J45 STD and SJ STD have modern bracing while J45 TV and SJ TV have vintage bracing. And does a SJ TV have the same bracing as a J45 TV ? And another question: I don't seem to see any Advanced Jumbo TV, any ?
EuroAussie Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 Probably a quick peek at the Gibson website would answer this question. But I imagine it would, but then again it is Gibson after all ... so it might not.
gotomsdos Posted February 22, 2012 Author Posted February 22, 2012 Probably a quick peek at the Gibson website would answer this question. But I imagine it would, but then again it is Gibson after all ... so it might not. The bracing info of models doesn't seem to be provided on Gibson site.
Mojorule Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 I believe that they do have the same bracing, though I also believe that the marketing department are right in describing the pattern as advanced rather than vintage. If I understand rightly from certain comments made on this site in the past, the original banner-era and script logo slope Gibsons did not have forward-shifted bracing, but I might be wrong. John Thomas, help?! If I am right, then the Standard models may be the ones with the vintage-styled bracing. At one stage the main physical difference between these two models was that the SJ-TV had a Sitka top and the 45-TV had Adirondack, if I have understood past posts correctly. That difference may not always have been present, and may no longer be there, but for a while at least, I believe, it was.
zombywoof Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 While they share the same bracing it seems back in the post-War 1940s and the 1950s SJs were made with better wood than the J-45s - having tighter grained tops and better quality mahogany bodies. To my ears the J-45 was a warmer sounding guitar with a real wide open sound while the SJs were more detailed and tighter sounding.
pfox14 Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 I also believe all the new Jumbo models have basically the same bracing pattern. The question is whether or not this was copied from a vintage example. The TV models are supposed to be copies of the originals right down to the bracing dimensions and materials. Ren F. said they did copy original specs from vintage guitars including cutting the red spruce bracing the same as their vintage counterparts.
Red 333 Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 I believe that they do have the same bracing, though I also believe that the marketing department are right in describing the pattern as advanced rather than vintage. The J-45 TV and Southern Jumbo TV share the same AJ-style top bracing ("advanced' in Gibson terms), but their backs are braced differently. They both have four tall and relatively thin style back braces, but the #1 and #2 braces on the J-45 (the two in the upper bout) are relieved of significantly more wood on their ends. The wood is relieved on the J-45's back braces in approximately the same place and to the same degree as on the Advanced Jumbo, except the Advanced Jumbo's back braces are more massive, especially the lower two (#3 and #4), which are quite hefty. The Fuller's J-35 Reissue shares the same bracing top and back as the AJ. It's my understanding (and take this with a grain of salt--nothing is set in stone in vintage or modern Gibson-land) that what we call "advanced" x-bracing was used by Gibson in the thirties Advanced Jumbos and J-35's, and that as the J-35 morphed into the J-45, the x was slowly repositioned slightly away from the soundhole and its angle decreased. I'm sure jt's eagerly awaited book and (hopefully included) x-brace x-rays can provide us all with a better understanding of how and when this change took place. By the way, I've seen vintage AJ's, J-35's, and J-45's with back braces that are significantly thinner than those on modern Gibsons--they are practically knife blades, but I don't know how commonly they were used or when. Red 333
Red 333 Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 I also believe all the new Jumbo models have basically the same bracing pattern. The question is whether or not this was copied from a vintage example. The TV models are supposed to be copies of the originals right down to the bracing dimensions and materials. Ren F. said they did copy original specs from vintage guitars including cutting the red spruce bracing the same as their vintage counterparts. The Legends are exacting copies of vintage bracing and construction. TV's are a combination of a model's "greatest hits" features from across several decades, plus some features that never were on that model to begin with, like the AJ ("advanced") x-bracing. So, it might be true that TV's have vintage-style bracing, but that style most likely only appeared on the AJ, (maybe) OJ, and J-35. Red 333
zombywoof Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 The Legends are exacting copies of vintage bracing and construction. TV's are a combination of a model's "greatest hits" features from across several decades, plus some features that never were on that model to begin with, like the AJ ("advanced") x-bracing. So, it might be true that TV's have vintage-style bracing, but that style most likely only appeared on the AJ, (maybe) OJ, and J-35. Red 333 This is a pretty good summation. The TV series seem to be more representations of a guitar from a past catalog than a spot on reproduction. Speaking of bracing, I gotta say the top bracing on the one original J-35 I have gotten a hold of was about the thinnest I have seen on a guitar.
rar Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 The Legends are exacting copies of vintage bracing and construction. ... it might be true that TV's have vintage-style bracing ... +1 The Legends, and only the Legends, precisely duplicate vintage bracing. All other bracing patterns are Ren's own, more or less inspired by vintage bracing patterns. (The Marketing Department doesn't much worry about such niceties.) -- Bob R
gotomsdos Posted February 23, 2012 Author Posted February 23, 2012 ...the x was slowly repositioned slightly away from the soundhole... Oh, I find Martin and Gibson both had bracing close to soundhole. Later for some reason (maybe prominency of top), they got bracing far from soundhole, so Martin folks call the previous "forward shifted" while Gibson folks call it "Advanced Bracing".
gotomsdos Posted February 23, 2012 Author Posted February 23, 2012 ... TV's are a combination of a model's "greatest hits" features from across several decades, plus some features that never were on that model to begin with, like the AJ ("advanced") x-bracing. So, it might be true that TV's have vintage-style bracing, but that style most likely only appeared on the AJ, (maybe) OJ, and J-35. Red 333 Wow ! such a thing ? Then J45 TRUE vintage is in a way "UNREAL" ? Coz we still can accept period-incorrect J45 vintage features (still J45's real features after all) on J45 TV, but as for non-vintage J45 feature （like advanced bracing from AJ）, I don't know what to say even though I personally dig it.
Mojorule Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 Wow ! such a thing ? Then J45 TRUE vintage is in a way "UNREAL" ? Coz we still can accept period-incorrect J45 vintage features (still J45's real features after all) on J45 TV, but as for non-vintage J45 feature （like advanced bracing from AJ）, I don't know what to say even though I personally dig it. Well I imagine that the Legend does not have advanced bracing. I'm not sure that bracing pattern was ever really used on a J45 until the TV. Red333 has really examined a large number of slopes, so I think we have it on good authority that the standards don't have the same braces as vintage models, but I have a hunch that the positioning of their braces is closer to vintage than that of the TVs. Am I right Red? I think that the point is not what is more vintage correct, but which pattern produces the sound you like best. On which note, I've discovered a whole load of new J45 samples on Youtube, from the end of 2011. Not one of those guitars sounds bad. In fact they all sound great. I'm beginning to wonder where all these legendary Gibson dogs are...
gotomsdos Posted February 23, 2012 Author Posted February 23, 2012 ... I have a hunch that the positioning of their braces is closer to vintage than that of the TVs. Am I right Red? ... Wow ! You mean that == J45 STD's bracing is closer to Vintage J45 than J45 TV === ? Or J45 STD's bracing is MORE vintage than J45 TV ? If so, it's understandable coz Red 333 says AJ bracing is heterogenous in J45 TV.
Mojorule Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 Wow ! You mean that == J45 STD's bracing is closer to Vintage J45 than J45 TV === ? Or J45 STD's bracing is MORE vintage than J45 TV ? If so, it's understandable coz Red 333 says AJ bracing is heterogenous in J45 TV. GTMSDS, I don't know what would constitute more vintage. It sounds like they're all a bit different, a vintage 45, a current Standard and a TV. But from reading Red I deduce that the positioning of the Std might be closer to actual vintage (or rather a continuation of what always was). But so many other variables are at stake than just position. And I'll be lucky if I ever see a vintage 45 in the flesh in my lifetime, so I can only conjecture on the basis of what the real empiricists can tell us. Pretty sure that the vintage bracing on the 45TV is not vintage 45 bracing, though! Interested in what constitutes knife-edge bracing. The braces on my Woody Guthrie (supposedly as per Std 45) are pretty narrow and tall. But it sounds as though some vintage braces are even narrower (and perhaps even taller).
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