Del Nilppeznaf Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 Ok, so I decided to get some bone pins for the HB TV.... BUT I decided to go for a cheap set.... mistake!!!!! I was going to order some Bob Collossi plain bone for Gibson, but I thought the time it will take to ship from US I may as well look for some from the UK. So search on Google and Ebay led me to discover a load of really inexpensive pins from China and a couple of dealers in the UK which offered what seemed to be slightly better quality. I really wanted just plain pins with no abalone dots... so I ordered what looked like the right kind from a UK company. Long story short... they are just the cheap Chinese pins with abalone dots. Anyway I have a couple of questions. As you can see from the pic.. I have fitted one pin to the low E string and it is being forced to sit at angle... I don't like the look of it. The plastic Gibson pins also sit at a slight angle but not as much as this. I am assuming these bone pins have a 5 degree taper.. unlike the 3 degree offered by Bob Collosi. Could this pin damage the bridge? It may seem a silly question... but I hope you get where I'm coming from. I am not sure about fitting other pins. Especially as the pins are not all the SAME SIZE Here you can see 3 pins. The far left is the Gibson plastic pin..... the middle is one of the bone which you can see is completely different size with no taper... the far right is what the rest of the bone pins look like. As you can see the rest of the pins are quite uniform. Anyway lesson learnt.... I will have to order from the states by the look of things. The thing is the one pin I have fitted makes a definite improvement in tone IMHO.. Would you guys fit the remaining pins while waiting from new set from the U.S ? Thanks
57classic Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 I'd put the properly fitted but inferior quality plastic pins in until the new ones arrive
pfox14 Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 I guess I'm not sure why you want to replace the platic pins in the first place. Gibson has been using plastic pins for decades. Bone pins are not that much of an improvement IMHO.
jrplefty Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 Even using digital calipers to measure the factory pins and having a set custom made by Bob, you will still have to fit the pins to your guitar as he makes his products slightly over sized. He does this because he would prefer a little fine sanding be done instead of sending you a product that is to small that will not work in your guitar. Consider taking some 160 grit sandpaper to the pins you feel don't fit well, and creating the size and taper you are looking for. If nothing else, doing this will create a set of backup pins if you end up ordering a new set of Colosi pins. Just my .02 Hope everything works out for you.
ponty Posted February 26, 2012 Posted February 26, 2012 The questions and answers of tone improvement with bone pins will go on for ever. My experience with bone pins is that my Martin 000-28 has experienced a huge difference for the better. So, I thought I would buy more for my J-45. However, when I tried them in the 45, the difference was unremarkable. Therefore I kept the original rosewood pins.
BluesKing777 Posted February 26, 2012 Posted February 26, 2012 The stock standard bone pins from StewMac fitted all the Gibsons I have changed. Should fit the HB. BluesKing777.
57classic Posted February 26, 2012 Posted February 26, 2012 The changing to bone pins on my Songwriter did nothing for the guitar until I put a bone saddle in too. Big difference for the better.
Del Nilppeznaf Posted February 27, 2012 Author Posted February 27, 2012 Thanks for replies, my main question I suppose is, do the bone pins any of you guys have fitted look like the top photo in OP? As in.. do they sit at an angle like this or are they flush with bridge hole. As I stated the Gibson plastic pins also do not sit flush in hole on my HB, more so the bass string pins. So are bone pins meant to sit like this?
j45nick Posted February 27, 2012 Posted February 27, 2012 Thanks for replies, my main question I suppose is, do the bone pins any of you guys have fitted look like the top photo in OP? As in.. do they sit at an angle like this or are they flush with bridge hole. As I stated the Gibson plastic pins also do not sit flush in hole on my HB, more so the bass string pins. So are bone pins meant to sit like this? The pins should not sit at an angle like this. It looks like the pins are the wrong taper, are too small, or the pin holes in the bridge have gotten damaged over time. On Gibsons, the pins are generally designed to be a finger-tight flush fit, with the skirt of the pin sitting virtually flush to the top of the bridge. On Martins, the pins are designed to sit up with the bottom of the skirt about 1-2mm above the surface of the bridge. There's nothing wrong with either approach, but in any case, I don't believe it is right for the pins to tilt like this. Worst case, if the pin holes are damaged, you can get them reamed and get larger pins to fit, assuming there is no damage to the bridge plate that is making this situation worse. Generally speaking, the ball ends of the strings should be wedged against the underside of the bridgeplate, held in place by the wedging force of the string slot in the pin. The string tension load (vertical pull) is actually taken by the bridgeplate. You should take an inspection mirror and flashlight to the underside of the top to see how the strings and pins are sitting.
jdd707 Posted February 27, 2012 Posted February 27, 2012 Man am I glad that this crooked pin topic came up just now. Check out the crooked pins in my new Blues King (born 1/6/12). I once had a girlfriend with teeth as crooked as these pins and, like the guitar, I loved her much and everything else was well built and worked exactly the way I expected it should ... as advertised. Although I didn't get to keep the girlfriend, I intend to keep the BK. Two people I trust have, independently, opined that the reason for the problem (with the guitar, not the girlfriend) is the fact that Gibsons have more hand made parts than most so there will be some issues. Sounds reasonable. There has certainly been much discussion about current build quality at Bozeman on this site. Score one for poor with this ONE issue. BTW, several new Gibsons on the wall had crooked pins. So the fix is to take it back and have Gibson/the dealer fix it since it is pretty obviously a problem with workmanship. Here's my questions. Since I intend to keep it, I want to bone it out. Should I have that done now as part of the repair? Or should I first resolve this and then do the boning (again, of the guitar not ... well you get it)? Will changing to bone impact the warranty if done by the 5 Star dealer? Espicially since the pins/bridge are the issue. Has anyone else put bone saddle and pins on a Blues King and what were the results? Any other issues I should address while doing this?
Del Nilppeznaf Posted February 27, 2012 Author Posted February 27, 2012 Thanks Nick and JD, here are my pins on 3 month old HB TV My feeling is the pins will become snugger ( is that a word .. ) over time, being plastic. As you can see from my OP the pic which shows a Gibson plastic pin has a groove in it where the ball end is pushing into pin, over time I think this will grow slightly to accomodate the ball end.. thus allowing the pin to be pushed in further. Would I be correct in this thinking? I personally don't think there is anything wrong with the bridge... ???? Some people may think the pins just need pushing in more firmly, this is not the case with me. They are pushed in as firmly as possible, using normal restraint/pressure. This photto was taken just now straight after a new set of strings change. This is only the 3rd set of strings to be fitted including original factory set. Last point.. as you can see the B string is the snuggest fit at the moment.. before string change it was not as snug... so something is changing somewhere. <_< EDIT Ok feeling a lil' silly now... applied more pressure to pins to see if that would work ... had to press really quite hard ..but as you can see there is improvement with fit I should check all possibilities before posting next time, sorry guys ( I have another confession to make also.. any one who read my Bagg's M1 pick up and Hummingbird pg post.. A week or so after posting I re-fitted the pup as I only use it when gigging and it fitted ON TOP of the PG no problem... whith out brushing treble strings.. I had been so excited fitting it for the first time I made a boob.... [blush] .. confession over. Amen ) Still unsure about pressing bone pins in so hard though.
j45nick Posted February 27, 2012 Posted February 27, 2012 Here's a comparison of fairly typical Martin vs. Gibson pins in the bridge. The first photo is the bridge of my '48 J-45. This is a new bridge and bridge plate, by the way, so it isn't suffering from 60+ years of wear. These are bone/abalone pins from Custom Inlay. They pretty much sit all the way down. Basically, when I re-string, I pull the string almost straight up while pushing the pin down to seat the string ball end under the bridge plate and in the pin slot. When there is some tension on the string, I push the pin back down to re-seat it while completing tuning the string. The second picture shows the Colosi bone/abalone pins (my favorite combination, as you might guess) sitting in the bridge of my 000-28 EC. Note that they do not sit flush. This is pretty much the way the original plastic pins sat as well, although I note that the low E pin is pushed up a bit here. I may have to re-fit that pin just a bit. Colosi pins are oversize, so it takes a few minutes per pin to sand them to the right diameter while maintaining the proper taper. He also recommends marking the pin shafts for each string, so that you always used the same pin in the same hole. I simply marked mine with an ultra-fine Sharpie. Because of the variances in string diameter, they do not all necessarily sit exactly the same way every time, but they should be close. If the pins lean forward the way yours do, it sounds to me like the taper of the pins does not match the taper of the holes well. The taper of the pins and the pin holes needs to be a close match for the whole system to work properly. Pfox may have some input on this. As a luthier, he undoubtedly has a lot more experience than most of us with bridge pins and pin holes.
Del Nilppeznaf Posted February 27, 2012 Author Posted February 27, 2012 Thanks for input nick I thought i was fitting new strings as you described, but it seems I am not holding the pin in firmly enough when bring up to tension... I have done this now..and the plastic pins are fitting much better. I have never taken as much notice of this before with other guitars..... its great to learn these little things. Thanks, I will try a bone pin and see how it goes. The last photots are of original Gibson plastic pins btw.
fortyearspickn Posted February 27, 2012 Posted February 27, 2012 Del, I ordered Colossi pins when I got my H'bird TV - put them in a couple of months ago and they fit pretty much flush and level. I noticed the ones you had in the pix didn't have a groove through the collar, and I believe both the Originals and the Bone/alabasters I got did. I figured the improvement in looks was enough to justify the cost - and like to believe they improved the sound. Hard to tell when you take off tired old strings and put on new Elixers!. I think the pins will all sit a fraction out of alignment with each other if for no other reason than the strings are different gauges. If it were my guitar, I'd take out those leaning pins for fear they might warp the hole. Put the old ones back as has been suggested. G'luck!
Del Nilppeznaf Posted February 27, 2012 Author Posted February 27, 2012 Del, I ordered Colossi pins when I got my H'bird TV - put them in a couple of months ago and they fit pretty much flush and level. I noticed the ones you had in the pix didn't have a groove through the collar, and I believe both the Originals and the Bone/alabasters I got did. I figured the improvement in looks was enough to justify the cost - and like to believe they improved the sound. Hard to tell when you take off tired old strings and put on new Elixers!. I think the pins will all sit a fraction out of alignment with each other if for no other reason than the strings are different gauges. If it were my guitar, I'd take out those leaning pins for fear they might warp the hole. Put the old ones back as has been suggested. G'luck! Thanks, the originals do not have groove thru the collar.. and the Collosi site says to go with the ones without the groove if the original pins are same. As you can see form OP pics the bone and original actually look very similar in size and taper. The last photos are of the original Gibson plastic pins..sorry i was posting as you replied..... I took the one bone pin i tried out straight away. After j45's input the original pins are now fitting much better.. still a slight tilt..but i am not concerned with it... they look about as snug as a bug in a rug will try a bone pin to see how it goes
mistafeeze Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 Hey nick...the picture of the 45 didn't come through...can you check the link? thanks!
j45nick Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 Hey nick...the picture of the 45 didn't come through...can you check the link? thanks! They should be embedded. Two photos should show up without any external links.
jdd707 Posted March 2, 2012 Posted March 2, 2012 http://www2.gibson.com/Products/Acoustic-Instruments/Round-Shoulder/Gibson-Acoustic/Southern-Jumbo-New-Vintage/Specs.aspx Heck, even the Gibson site is showing a bridge here and the pins are all crooked. geeze.
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