Big brother to '33 L-00?

[Delmo]

Hi,

This is my first post on my first day on this forum. I am joining to try and get some advice on my next vintage gibson. I am the VERY HAPPY new owner of a 1933 L-00 in perfect condition. Now, this is my first pre-war vintage Gibson. Well the sound of this guitar has blown my mind! It is so powerful, clear, note specific, with great bass & mids for a small bodied guitar. SO. here's my question, what is the big brother to my L-00? I am in the market for a larger version of this guitar, whatever that may be. Now, I should say that I am ruling out Advanced Jumbo and Jumbos from the '30's as I don't have a licensce to print money. I am considering a J-35 or a banner J-45. All advice as to what to consider would be Most Helpful!

Many Thanks!

[jedzep]

Details please. I'm a freak for all things L0 and L00. Congratulations! Where'd you pick it up? Are you thinking of a vintage banner or buying new/old, 'cause a vintage banner will break the bank too. My '57 J45 is the perfect big brother to my '36 L0. These two together are already my 'perfect' complementary pair. The J45 is a bit softer in tone, but louder and good for full sound strumming when you need it. The L0 plays with a little more bark and is more intimate for fingerpicking. J45 is my vote.

[Delmo]

I my L-00 on e-bay, believe it or not. I have been looking for the right one for awhile. This one was an estate find, from the family of the original owner. It was found detuned in the back of a closet where it had stayed for over 40 years. The years before that saw some use but the guitar has NO issues. Dings & scratches but not a crack, the neck is perfectly straight, the truss rod had never been tightened, doesn't need a neck re-set, original frets show little wear as does the original fingerboard, bridge is perfect and plenty of saddle. In short, my dream of a depression era old-time string band guitar. I got very lucky on this one and paid under 4K for it delivered. Now, that's not small change but I have looked at ones from 2-6K and not seen or heard one this good. So, your advice about the J-45 is kind of where I think I'm headed. But, I am considering a 1944 banner. I forgot to mention that I want a 1 & 3/4" nut width. Please, anything else you can tell me would be great.

[j45nick]

I my L-00 on e-bay, believe it or not. I have been looking for the right one for awhile. This one was an estate find, from the family of the original owner. It was found detuned in the back of a closet where it had stayed for over 40 years. The years before that saw some use but the guitar has NO issues. Dings & scratches but not a crack, the neck is perfectly straight, the truss rod had never been tightened, doesn't need a neck re-set, original frets show little wear as does the original fingerboard, bridge is perfect and plenty of saddle. In short, my dream of a depression era old-time string band guitar. I got very lucky on this one and paid under 4K for it delivered. Now, that's not small change but I have looked at ones from 2-6K and not seen or heard one this good. So, your advice about the J-45 is kind of where I think I'm headed. But, I am considering a 1944 banner. I forgot to mention that I want a 1 & 3/4" nut width. Please, anything else you can tell me would be great.

 

If you bought that one on ebay a couple of weeks ago, I was the guy bidding against you at the very end. It looked like a very nice guitar, but I had set my maximum price at about $3500, and was unwilling to go over that.

 

By the way, I have a 1948 J-45 that I've owned since 1966. I strongly recommend the J-45's from 1946 up through about 1953-'54 (small pickguard, tapered headstock), but you will pay about $4-5K or more for a really good one. You may not find the 1 3/4" nut width on a J-45, as they are usually either 1 23/32" or 1 11/16". Frankly, the difference between 1 23/32" and 1 3/4" really is insignificant. As I keep telling people, the nut width is only half the equation. The bridge pin spacing is the other half and it does not change with differences in nut width.

[Delmo]

If you bought that one on ebay a couple of weeks ago, I was the guy bidding against you at the very end. It looked like a very nice guitar, but I had set my maximum price at about $3500, and was unwilling to go over that.

 

By the way, I have a 1948 J-45 that I've owned since 1966. I strongly recommend the J-45's from 1946 up through about 1953-'54 (small pickguard, tapered headstock), but you will pay about $4-5K or more for a really good one. You may not find the 1 3/4" nut width on a J-45, as they are usually either 1 23/32" or 1 11/16". Frankly, the difference between 1 23/32" and 1 3/4" really is insignificant. As I keep telling people, the nut width is only half the equation. The bridge pin spacing is the other half and it does not change with differences in nut width.

 

It could have been the same one although I bought it on Feb. 9 at a "buy it now" price for 3850. Sometimes you get less of a guitar than you thought and others more. This was definitely a MORE. Thanks for the advice on the J-45 and you are right about the bridge pin spacing. But, I am a player and have gotten really used to the string spacing w 1&3/4 nut. My fingers are such that I just don't like the narrower size much, although I do have a 1947 Martin 000-18 w/ 1&11/16, which I'm going to sell as 2 months ago I found a 1934 000-18 long scale - definitely a players guitar and not a collectors - but I'm just smitten with the 1&3/4. Anyway, enough of that, what else can you tell me about the difference say between the earlier J-45s (which do have a wider nut and neck) and the post war ones like you have? How about in terms of tone? I am very excited to find a good one. The ones I've talked with people about, the banner ones, are @ 7.5K or more for a good one!

[j45nick]

It could have been the same one although I bought it on Feb. 9 at a "buy it now" price for 3850. Sometimes you get less of a guitar than you thought and others more. This was definitely a MORE. Thanks for the advice on the J-45 and you are right about the bridge pin spacing. But, I am a player and have gotten really used to the string spacing w 1&3/4 nut. My fingers are such that I just don't like the narrower size much, although I do have a 1947 Martin 000-18 w/ 1&11/16, which I'm going to sell as 2 months ago I found a 1934 000-18 long scale - definitely a players guitar and not a collectors - but I'm just smitten with the 1&3/4. Anyway, enough of that, what else can you tell me about the difference say between the earlier J-45s (which do have a wider nut and neck) and the post war ones like you have? How about in terms of tone? I am very excited to find a good one. The ones I've talked with people about, the banner ones, are @ 7.5K or more for a good one!

 

JT (John Thomas--see his website, johnthomasguitar.com) is a regular here, and is probably the world's expert on banner era Gibsons. He can probably comment on relative tone of guitars of this period better than anyone, as he has probably played more. I can say that I've never met a bad-sounding J-45 from the early post-war period. Tone, however, is in the ear of the beholder.

 

No, the guitar I bid on was not the one you bought, but is was similar, probably a 1939. It actually looked pristine, but photos can be deceiving. I've looked at a lot of L-00's and similar from this period, but I buy them as players, rather than collectors, so I have to balance my desire for a vintage guitar against the cost of a newer guitar. Gibson is probably building some of the best acoustic guitars they have ever built right now. For me, it's just a matter of finding the right one, whether newer or vintage.

 

I actually prefer the post-war neck shape, rather than the earlier V-shaped necks. I have a 1947 L-7 that has, in my opinion, the perfect Gibson acoustic neck.

[jedzep]

OK...you may not have a license to print money, but you're at a strong upper-mid level range of affordability. The next tier up is a collector zone few here can walk or spend among. I'm a vintage only buyer and if I had that kind of cash to put into an old acoustic I'd search beyond Ebay for a while. Dig up some dealer info and find another 'cherry' specimen. The guitars you're considering from that period at that price level will pretty much all sound like heaven. Don't forget to dicker.

[j45nick]

OK...you may not have a license to print money, but you're at a strong upper-mid level range of affordability. The next tier up is a collector zone few here can walk or spend among. I'm a vintage only buyer and if I had that kind of cash to put into an old acoustic I'd search beyond Ebay for a while. Dig up some dealer info and find another 'cherry' specimen. The guitars you're considering from that period at that price level will pretty much all sound like heaven. Don't forget to dicker.

 

JZ is right about that one. You don't often find great buys on ebay.

 

Guitar shows are another really good place to look at and perhaps buy vintage instruments. Dealers will generally dicker at shows, particularly on the last day when they have to pack up all those guitars and take them home.

 

Shows also give you the advantage of being able to play a bunch of similar guitar, which gives you a much better feel for them. This is particularly important for vintage instruments, which can vary dramatically in condition, playability, and character. There's no substitute for playing a guitar and examining it first-hand to know whether its a good one.

 

Ebay is always a roll of the dice. Is the guitar properly represented? How does it play? What does it sound like? I'll almost never pay as much for a guitar on ebay as I might after playing it. Too many vintage guitars need repairs that may not be visible even in a good photo, such as a neck re-set.

[Delmo]

JZ is right about that one. You don't often find great buys on ebay.

 

Guitar shows are another really good place to look at and perhaps buy vintage instruments. Dealers will generally dicker at shows, particularly on the last day when they have to pack up all those guitars and take them home.

 

Shows also give you the advantage of being able to play a bunch of similar guitar, which gives you a much better feel for them. This is particularly important for vintage instruments, which can vary dramatically in condition, playability, and character. There's no substitute for playing a guitar and examining it first-hand to know whether its a good one.

 

Ebay is always a roll of the dice. Is the guitar properly represented? How does it play? What does it sound like? I'll almost never pay as much for a guitar on ebay as I might after playing it. Too many vintage guitars need repairs that may not be visible even in a good photo, such as a neck re-set.

 

Thank you both! it's so helpful. Yes, I know ebay is limited. that's why I said in the original post how surprised I was to find the '33 L-00 to be More than I expected for the $. I bought my '34 000-18 Martin from a vintage dealer at a guitar show, on the last day in the last few hours, as you have suggested. and, I'm zeroing in on the J-45 banner from a vintage dealer. so, I completely agree about e-bay and cautions thereof. It's just that I'm new to vintage gibsons. that's what I want to talk with you about. I have been more focused on Martins (I have 4)... then I got the '33 L-00 and haven't quite been the same since... anymore advice about early J-45s or J-35s?

[j45nick]

Thank you both! it's so helpful. Yes, I know ebay is limited. that's why I said in the original post how surprised I was to find the '33 L-00 to be More than I expected for the $. I bought my '34 000-18 Martin from a vintage dealer at a guitar show, on the last day in the last few hours, as you have suggested. and, I'm zeroing in on the J-45 banner from a vintage dealer. so, I completely agree about e-bay and cautions thereof. It's just that I'm new to vintage gibsons. that's what I want to talk with you about. I have been more focused on Martins (I have 4)... then I got the '33 L-00 and haven't quite been the same since... anymore advice about early J-45s or J-35s?

 

You need to do a bit of research here before jumping in. For starters, buy a copy of "Gibson's Fabulous Flat Top Guitars", if you don't already have it. Are you a collector, or a player/collector? That may well change your whole approach. If you are looking for a great playing, great sounding guitar, your choices may be very different than if you are simply buying a broad spectrum of vintage guitars.

 

Do you want guitars that you can play every day, or are you looking at guitars primarily as collectibles? If you are interested in banner era guitars, you absolutely MUST do your homework before buying. JT's research may be a big help in that regard.

 

If you are looking at guitars as players rather than collectibles, you may well wish to consider some modern-era models, which are among the best acoustics Gibson has ever made. Remember, today's new guitars are tomorrow's collectibles. When I bought my '48 J-45 in 1966, it was just a beatup 18-year-old guitar, the equivalent of buying a 1994 guitar today.

[tvguit]

I once bought a '36 L-00 and a '53 J-45 from a guy in Georgia. They were both owned by his uncle and had sat in his closet for 30 years. The L-00 even had a picture of the original owner with the guitar in the case. They were quite a pair!! I have since sold the L-00 but I don't know if I will ever sell the J-45.

 

 

[pfox14]

The Jumbo body size is certainly the next tier up from the L-00s, but I would consider looking at the Nick Lucas Specials as well. Same width & body shape as the L-00, but much deeper body dimensions. They can be pretty expensive guitars right up there with pre-war Jumbos. They are legendary for their tone and playability and could certainly be considered as the "big brother" to the L-00. You also couldn't go wrong buying a banner-era or post-war J-45 or similar Jumbo. Personally I like really like the style of the the pre-war & WWII era J-55. Very rare but cool guitars.

[jedzep]

I once bought a '36 L-00 and a '53 J-45 from a guy in Georgia. They were both owned by his uncle and had sat in his closet for 30 years. The L-00 even had a picture of the original owner with the guitar in the case. They were quite a pair!! I have since sold the L-00 but I don't know if I will ever sell the J-45.

 

 

Think I recall this pic in an Ebay listing. I was probably trying to bid on your L00 sale. That or trying to talk you into making a direct sale, which is a bad Ebay habit I've developed. They don't let you include email addresses anymore when communicating so I have to come up with a 'puzzle' to get it out there. Baaad buyer!

[tvguit]

Think I recall this pic in an Ebay listing. I was probably trying to bid on your L00 sale. That or trying to talk you into making a direct sale, which is a bad Ebay habit I've developed. They don't let you include email addresses anymore when communicating so I have to come up with a 'puzzle' to get it out there. Baaad buyer!

 

i would have much rather sold it to you, Jed!

[Delmo]

You need to do a bit of research here before jumping in. For starters, buy a copy of "Gibson's Fabulous Flat Top Guitars", if you don't already have it. Are you a collector, or a player/collector? That may well change your whole approach. If you are looking for a great playing, great sounding guitar, your choices may be very different than if you are simply buying a broad spectrum of vintage guitars.

 

Do you want guitars that you can play every day, or are you looking at guitars primarily as collectibles? If you are interested in banner era guitars, you absolutely MUST do your homework before buying. JT's research may be a big help in that regard.

 

If you are looking at guitars as players rather than collectibles, you may well wish to consider some modern-era models, which are among the best acoustics Gibson has ever made. Remember, today's new guitars are tomorrow's collectibles. When I bought my '48 J-45 in 1966, it was just a beatup 18-year-old guitar, the equivalent of buying a 1994 guitar today.

 

Yes, I have a copy of Gibsons FAB flat-tops right here beside me as well as Swann's Guide, 13th ed Blue Book, and 2012 Price Guide, and I have really been doing my homework. And have played a few vintage 45's & a beat up '39 J-35, as well as the new J-45 Custom (rosewood) which I was really impressed with. we'll come back to new in a minute, but first - your questions: I am buying guitars that I want to play, not just as collectable samples, as if from a disinterested market investor. I play all my guitars, even the one or two I wish I hadn't bought. But, as a player of old-time and bluegrass music I have found that older is often better in sound and I love the vibe of a real depression era or war era instrument that a sting band rhythm guitar player might have played on. (although most likely in the depression the majority of string band guitar players played guitars far inferior to Gibson or certainly Martin - I have my first guitar - a 1962 Silvertone small bodied guitar - it's eqivalent in the depression era would have cost $5-7 new.) Now, I certainly wish I had kept up buying old guitars as a youngster but I had not money in those days. My accoustic in the heady playing days of my late teens and early '20's was a used Yamaha. I gave up playing for a long time as I went on into my education and career. My wife gave me a 1969 J-50 as a birthday present back in the '80s. That was my first vintage guitar. but it was also my only guitar as I had long since sold the Yamaha. Still, the fire didn't catch until a few years ago. I live in California now but was born and raised in the Piedmont section of North Carolina, and I just started to get reaquainted with the music that was all around me as I grew up. Then a couple of years ago, for my 60th birthday, I bought a brand new Martin D-28 Marquis Sun Burst. an exceptional guitar in every respect. And, soon thereafter I started up a little string band playing bluegrass music. That guitar, with it's almost faithful build that harkaned back to the '30's pointed me down the road I've ended up on today. I found my D-28 was just the guitar to play with in a bluegrass ensemble as it was super powerful, but that as I dialed the clock back even further, musically, to old-time, the predecesor of bluegrass, and started to do some front porch recordings, I found that smaller or less powerful guitars were of interest as well. My first vintage guitar was a 1947 Martin 000-18 that I bought on impulse from an independent guitar store. I played it in the store made an offer on it and took it home. This was half a year ago. There were things I loved about the '47 and things I didn't. I had paid little for it as I told myself, "Im a player not a collector". I love the small size of the body but in late '39 Martin slimmed the neck down and began to brace their guitars heavier. I had gotten real used to the wider vintage '30's neck on my D-28 Marquis and it's 2 5/16 string spacing at the bridge. And, the Martin had many repairs and a heavy refinish and is a candidate for a neck reset. All no no's of course, but hey, I told myself I got a good deal on the guitar. WELLLLLLLL, that was all before I found a 1934 000-18 long scale at a vintage guitar show and bought it. That was 3 months ago. This guitar, while not pretty, and definitely a players guitar has a MUCH better sound, wider neck that I love, and is structurally sound with a new fingerboard, frets, bridge, tuners - almost a new guitar in that respect - but the body, wood & bracing is all 1934 and what a sound. But, not that's a guitar that I can play the hell out of and not worry about it curmbling in my hands but it's not a collector's piece. Then, less than a month ago I found the '33 L-00. This guitar is my first vintage instrument that would also qualify as collectible as it's all original an in fantastic shape. But, also a player. The finish has lots of scratches and dings and there's plenty of wear on the sound hole at the pick guard. So, I'm not afraid to play it. In fact I play it all the time. So, the moral my story has become buy the best example of the model you're interested at the best price you can find. Compare whatever is out there from many sources. Don't take condition shortcuts, they will often deflate the sound your looking for and cost you more in the long run. The reason I'm looking for the "big brother to the L-00" is that that little Gibson has blown my mind on sound and playability and vibe. And, the examples of pre-war and wartime J's are high they are not out of sight as say early Martin D-28s or D-18s. Now, I've taken '30's jumbos and advanced jumbos out of the picture, 'cause i can't afford them and I think I can get a J-35 or banner J-45 that sounds and plays almost as good at a price I can afford.

 

So, that's my story. Please, any more specific advice for me about those "big brothers" please?

[Delmo]

I once bought a '36 L-00 and a '53 J-45 from a guy in Georgia. They were both owned by his uncle and had sat in his closet for 30 years. The L-00 even had a picture of the original owner with the guitar in the case. They were quite a pair!! I have since sold the L-00 but I don't know if I will ever sell the J-45.

 

 

 

I Love this story. and the pictures are great! Thank you so much for sharing that. Please tell me more about your '53 J-45.

[Delmo]

The Jumbo body size is certainly the next tier up from the L-00s, but I would consider looking at the Nick Lucas Specials as well. Same width & body shape as the L-00, but much deeper body dimensions. They can be pretty expensive guitars right up there with pre-war Jumbos. They are legendary for their tone and playability and could certainly be considered as the "big brother" to the L-00. You also couldn't go wrong buying a banner-era or post-war J-45 or similar Jumbo. Personally I like really like the style of the the pre-war & WWII era J-55. Very rare but cool guitars.

 

Yes, I started to look at the Nick Lucas Special, but they are quite expensive. However, I'm still interested, maybe. Do you have a recommendation between say a late 20's NL or a 30's NL? of course the rosewood ones are out due to price. I haven't actuall looked at the J-55 as I thought it's rarity might make it too much $$. In tone how do they compare to the j-39 pre war and J-45 war era?

[jedzep]

The J35 I feel would offer you a 'booming' sound, quite a jump in volume from your L00. The NL is similar to the L00 anyway. I assume you're looking for a distinction in tone between the two guitars. This is my own qualifier for 'collecting'. I don't keep two similar sounding guitars around. That's why I like the 'in between' ( I'd say muted ) tone of a J45.

[Delmo]

The J35 I feel would offer you a 'booming' sound, quite a jump in volume from your L00. The NL is similar to the L00 anyway. I assume you're looking for a distinction in tone between the two guitars. This is my own qualifier for 'collecting'. I don't keep two similar sounding guitars around. That's why I like the 'in between' ( I'd say muted ) tone of a J45.

 

I've begun to focus a bit on the J-35. seems like it may really be the big brother to the '33 L-00. Anyone have any advice on the multiple tone bar issue? scalloped or not bracing?

[tvguit]

I Love this story. and the pictures are great! Thank you so much for sharing that. Please tell me more about your '53 J-45.

 

The J-45 was my favorite from the start even though when I got it, it sounded a bit "dead". Maybe boring would be a better term. Once I adjusted the truss rod it played pretty well but I didn't know its true potential until I took it to Jason Burns (he is a true professional: http://burnsrepair.com/Home.html) to glue up some braces. I came back to pick it up and he took it out of the case and strummed a chord- my jaw about dropped to the floor. This thing was loud, raw and woody. I don't know if I will ever let it go.