gotomsdos Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 Hi, folks here, It occured to me that which one of my recently hunted Luthier's Choice J-35 by Ren and J-45 TV sounded, as a whole, closer to 1942 Legend J-45 ? (I wonder if the issue makes some sense). This way came the issue: my J-35 is 30's, Fuller's J-35 is 39's, I guess they are very tonewise close owing to probable similar specs. History shows that vintage J-35 from 1939 starts to have scalloped tonebar, and I find my J-35 does. And folks say that J45 TV is based on mostly 50's specs. My J-35: =========== 1939's specs (approximately) Legend 1942 J-45: == 1942's specs (exactly) J-45 TV:============ 1950's specs (mostly) It seems that chronologically my J-35 is closer to Legend than J-45 TV even though one of the obvious differences is that my J-35 has 3 scalloped tonebars while I guess both of Legend and TV have 2 scalloped tonebars. And all of them are Adi topped. As to bracing, Red 333 says that both J-35 and J-45 TV have AJ bracing, I guess Legend has no. But I don't know tonewise. Any comments would be appreciated..
rar Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 Any comments would be appreciated.. I haven't got to hear an LC J-35 yet -- I'm looking forward to checking out Dave's in June at the Homecoming -- so this is just a guess, but I'll take a shot anyway. Neither sounds enough like a Legend for there to be a meaningful answer to this question. Legend J-45s are really in a class by themselves. They're not everyone's favorite, but there's no mistaking them for any other Bozeman-built Gibson. -- Bob R
gotomsdos Posted February 28, 2012 Author Posted February 28, 2012 BTW, I read that there are no big differences between J-35 and early J-45 (Legend J-45 is based on first year's J-45)
Guth Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 Seeing how every guitar is different, even amongst examples of the same model, it's impossible to say. Regardless of any similarity to the J-45 Legend, how are you enjoying your Gibsons, are you happy with them? What differences do you perceive between the two when you play them and which one has more of the tone that you were searching for?
ParlourMan Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 Perhaps you should post some clips, then we can hear them and give a better opinion. With all the variables considered I'll say both do equally, just as much as both don't. ;) All the best
gotomsdos Posted February 28, 2012 Author Posted February 28, 2012 Thank you folks for replies, I meant as a whole, or on the average, in this way, individual difference of the same model is temporarily not considered, coz the focus is the comparison and differences between models. And I have Ren's J-35 only....no the other 2.
ParlourMan Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 I think you're on the quest for the unachievable, gotmsdos. I'd say even if you had the original J-50 that Dylan used himself, it wouldn't sound like it did all those years ago. The main factor you are not factoring in is these are old analogue recordings, the room, the mics, the desk, the engineer, the attack in the playing, these are all unmeasured variables in the end product, I guess even the original people involved in the same room with the same gear wouldn't get the exact same sound again. The bigger question here is are you happy with the guitars you have or is this unachievable tonal quest the main driving force? Even with all the stars aligned in the right way, you're still not Bob Dylan, so why try? lest we forget, guitar forums are always telling us we need vintage gear to capture all those vintage sounds, well those were new guitars at the time, you'd do far greater in achieving a vintage sound by buying vintage recording gear. Regards
57classic Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 I think you're on the quest for the unachievable, gotmsdos. I'd say even if you had the original J-50 that Dylan used himself, it wouldn't sound like it did all those years ago. The main factor you are not factoring in is these are old analogue recordings, the room, the mics, the desk, the engineer, the attack in the playing, these are all unmeasured variables in the end product, I guess even the original people involved in the same room with the same gear wouldn't get he exact same sound again. The bigger question here is are you happy with the guitars you have or is this unachievable tonal quest the main driving force. Even with all the stars aligned in the right way, you're still not Bob Dylan, so why try? lest we forget, guitar forums are always telling us we need vintage gear to capture all those vintage sounds, well those were new guitars at the time, you'd do far greater in achieving a vintage sound by buying vintage recording gear. Regards Couldn't have said it better myself
gotomsdos Posted February 28, 2012 Author Posted February 28, 2012 I think you're on the quest for the unachievable, gotmsdos. I'd say even if you had the original J-50 that Dylan used himself, it wouldn't sound like it did all those years ago. The main factor you are not factoring in is these are old analogue recordings, the room, the mics, the desk, the engineer, the attack in the playing, these are all unmeasured variables in the end product, I guess even the original people involved in the same room with the same gear wouldn't get he exact same sound again. The bigger question here is are you happy with the guitars you have or is this unachievable tonal quest the main driving force. Even with all the stars aligned in the right way, you're still not Bob Dylan, so why try? lest we forget, guitar forums are always telling us we need vintage gear to capture all those vintage sounds, well those were new guitars at the time, you'd do far greater in achieving a vintage sound by buying vintage recording gear. Regards Thank you ParlourMan for your serious reply. But maybe you misunderstood me. I've been learning as much knowledge of Gibson aoucstic (especially Slope D) as I can and possible. The thread aims at research on J-35/J-45. Yes, now a Legend 1942 J-45 is beyond my hand, but maybe I'd buy it and even every type of Gibson Slope D (including all model vintages) to my hugging, if I had enough extra fund. And I initially would like to buy a vintage J-45 before 1955 when Gibson began to change some specs which now are considered by folks to be bad or not good. But later on I took into consideration that I'm outside US, reparing would be a big problem, in case of possible wearing and getting broken, in my country there are no qualified repairmen for vintage. Subsequently I gave up the mind, had to buy modern vintage model tonewise as close to vintage sound as possbile, these new guitars will be played many years before getting worn and broken. So an ebay Ren J-35 drew my eye...you know what I did later on... But these 2 are 2 issues, and maybe I'll be starting a new thread about buying a Legend 1942 J-45 if I'll have had enough extra fund. These 2 will be 2 threads. But the current thread is the research on J-35, 1942 J-45 and J-45 TV and their heritage clues, similarity, evolution, differences, as members of a Gibson Slope D famaly...etc. This is a serious research subject and even a research item...
ParlourMan Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 Thank you ParlourMan for your serious reply. But maybe you misunderstood me. I've been learning as much knowledge of Gibson aoucstic (especially Slope D) as I can and possible. The thread aims at research on J-35/J-45. My pleasure, the shortest and direct response to that is that no amount of questioning, answering, or offering tonal opinions are going to get you any closer than you trying these three guitars for yourself and deciding what is best. I can't put it any simpler than you will not have Bob Dylan's J-50. Yes, I'd buy a Legend 1942 J-45 and even every Gibson Slope D (including all vintages)to my hugging, if I had enough extra fund. But these 2 are 2 issues, and maybe I'll be starting a new thread about buying a Legend 1942 J-45 if I'll have had enough extra fund. These 2 will be 2 threads. Wouldn't you be happier in the long run finding a slope model you sound good for you? But the current thread is the research on J-35, 1942 J-45 and J-45 TV and their heritage clues, similarity, evolution, differences, as members of a Gibson Slope D famaly...etc. This is a serious research subject and even a research item... It's more than a serious research, it's obviously taking up a lot of your time and ultimately you're asking more enthusiasts than experts (even on here). Without raining on your parade any, I would say you're likelier to get back to a happy medium if you find the best slope shouldered model for you and forget the J-50 with celebrity connections. If you're not satisfied with the J-35 that is one issue, but I really can't see a resolve till you readjust the goal here, to try to help you find a model for you will generate a lot of useful responses, to keep on the Bob's J-50 theme and people will start to avoid the threads as there is no resolve in that case. I hope this helps and I hope you can find a 35/45 model you're happy with.
gotomsdos Posted February 28, 2012 Author Posted February 28, 2012 ...trying these three guitars for yourself and deciding what is best Yes, I KNOW, but now I have Ren J-35 only, no the other 2. so no way to try them all. All I can do is asking for your experiences of trying them, if you have.. ... If you're not satisfied with the J-35 that is one issue ...I really can't see a resolve till you readjust the goal here ... I'm very happy with the Ren J-35, It was a very successful gamble on ebay. It has brilliant trebles, singing mids and thumpy bass, perfect. Later on I ordered a J45 TV (upcoming), I still would like a J45 sound, they're different even though they belong to a family. No resolve. If resolve, no further learning. I hope this helps and I hope you can find a 35/45 model you're happy with. Some of my posts are nothin' to do with my personal affairs, beyond them. Studying is everything. On this forum, studying Gibson acoustic is everything. I'd buy every Gibson acoustic model, had I extra enough fund. maybe some are what I like while some are even not much. This learning, to a wide range, is a kind of learning of US modern culture.
ParlourMan Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 Well, I'm no expert on anything Gibson related, merely an enthusiast, so I can't add anything further.... Good luck with your quest, I hope it doesn't take away too much time from actually playing your guitars. ;)
gotomsdos Posted February 28, 2012 Author Posted February 28, 2012 Well, I'm no expert on anything Gibson related, merely an enthusiast, so I can't add anything further.... Good luck with your quest, I hope it doesn't take away too much time from actually playing your guitars. ;) Thank you for your input... Yes, I play guitar at least 2 hours almost everyday, but plucking only is not enough, there is culture in Gibson...
j45nick Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 Couldn't have said it better myself Agree 100%. Gotomsdos, you are chasing smoke rings here........... You need to stop obsessing over this stuff, and go play your guitars. Do you enjoy them? At the end of the day, that's the only thing that matters. No two guitars will ever sound exactly the same.
zombywoof Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 The only 1930s J-35 I have spent some time with had the thinnest top bracing I have ever seen in a big box guitar. I agree with others though - the best way to keep your sanity to to just buy guitars you like and not worry how they compare to this or that instrument from a company's "golden past." If anyone is interested, here is a pic of a 1936 J-35s inards.
Buc McMaster Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 It's easy to get caught up in the minutia of guitar construction details and that in itself is not a bad thing. But if obsession with details gets in the way of enjoying ones' instruments, well, that's OCD. I hope you take the time to play and love your guitar(s) for what they are: tools of joy and creation and not things to be measured against their own variations through history. I think I understand the passion you have for things American. Being an American, looking from the inside out, I can see how some folks elsewhere in the world can be fascinated with what we see as mundane......we live and die here without benefit of an outside perspective. So more power to you in your search for your guitar dreams but do take time to stop & pluck the strings!
ParlourMan Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 apologies for the minor hijacking here..... I dunno there, Buc, I'm not an American, most of my relations are though... but in saying that I have no real fascination with the US, for either the mundane or the exciting. I'm not in any way anti-American, far from it. Asking the average person here in Europe how they felt might result in a small political diatribe of the negative variety especially in recent times, but the majority would probably say they couldn't care less one way or another. I know it can be a common perception in the US for people to think the rest of the world is fascinated with it/them etc, but it really isn't the case in day to day life. People will have their favourite aspects, stars, music and films that hail from the US for sure, but the rest of the world doesn't look in wishing it was them, so to speak. I've quite literally never come across that at all. But, back on guitars and all things being equal I wouldn't care where the Montana guitar were made, if they were of the same quality and sonic appeal, I'd be more than happy with a bunch of Chinese one's if they were as good.
gotomsdos Posted February 28, 2012 Author Posted February 28, 2012 If anyone is interested, here is a pic of a 1936 J-35s inards. Great Pic ! I wonder if it's 2 or 3 tonebars. I guess they are unscalloped. A record of history or just a demonstration ?
Buc McMaster Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 I dunno there, Buc, I'm not an American, most of my relations are though... but in saying that I have no real fascination with the US, for either the mundane or the exciting. I did say some folks.
ParlourMan Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 I did say some folks. ;) There's always some folks, no matter where you go in the world... ;) The reason I picked up on it, is it's something we've even heard from our relatives, naturally these discussions are easier when you're in each other's lounges and context and implied language are much easier understood. So if you're ever in Luxembourg, I'll let you play my Gibson's and we can trade the best's and worst's ;) I'm actually Scottish and living in a French and German speaking region of Europe, so I'm no stranger to being an alien in foreign lands.
fortyearspickn Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 I think we mostly agree here - 'SOME folks' is more accurate. But in the context of this forum it is easy to lose perspective and think a higher percentage of accoustic guitar lovers worldwide prefer 'American Made'. That is certainly not true - just something many people here who prefer Gibson would tend to like to believe :) ! I think we also agree that superb guitars can be made anywhere in the world, even in gotomsdos's homeland (if, in fact, it is China). It just takes the money to invest in creating the 'factory' and getting artisan/builders. Of course, Gibson has brand loyalty and 'goodwill' that couldn't be bought. At least not metaphorically speaking. I think the point we are coming to realize here is that the OP seems to be pulling our chain, whether in the name of 'research' or a love of the Gibson mystique. Most forum members have bent over backwards to be helpful, yet now, OP intends to start two new threads! To be charitable, we are being asked to spend time sorting the flyspecks from the pepper. As many here have written - not only are the guitars different and the wood aging, the players evolve, the recording equipment evolves, heck I bet even the strings are radically different! But,as I've posted before the joker in the deck is we all have slightly different oto equipment to hear with and send that sound to the brain.
zombywoof Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 Great Pic ! A record of history or just a demonstration ? The real deal.
Mojorule Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 The real deal. I'm sure that picture is fascinating for quite a few of us folks, ZW. I'm not sure how much narrower than the current J45 bracing those slices are, because it's hard to compare a photo like that with the actual innards of a guitar up close, but they certainly are narrow. But then again, whenever I look at the braces on my SJ I have a similar impression. What really intrigues me, though, are the two little slices of wood to the bottom left of the board. Are they what is meant by cleating?
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