Lazerface Posted March 1, 2012 Posted March 1, 2012 I play guitar with a drummer and another guitar player. Drummer expresses distaste in the other guitar players' "excessive shredding". Now this other guitar player just got back on the scene after being on again off again (mostly off) for 6 years. This all came up after our first show on saturday, and i am definitely reaponsible for encouraging said shredding. Now i am stuck in the middle of explaining to my dummer that its not a big deal and helping the other guitar player with some theory and "maturation" if you will. Its a big headache and a hassle, but weve been basically playin in groups together from the start and are all close friends. I want to keep it fun but still sound awesome and help everyone be happy. Am i asking for too much? I dont think so.
bonzoboy Posted March 1, 2012 Posted March 1, 2012 To tell the truth if I was trying to make some serious music and another guitarist kept shredding I'd be pretty miffed too.If you don't nip this prima donna attitude in the bud he'll be showing off his shredding abilities-or lack thereof-when you start getting gigs and believe me audiences won't be near as tolerant as you are.My daughter's boyfriend is 43 and a real metal head,he can't play clean at all but that's another story.The day I met him he had come to the house with her,of course he wanted to see my guitar and amp collection Of course all he wanted to see was my Marshall stack and G-400 Custom anyway I let him use them and of course he proceeded to turn it up to ear bleed level and overdrive it but that wasn't enough for him ,he wanted a distortion pedal too,I managed to talk him out of that.Anyway I said we'd start off with something slow and fairly simple so I started with Red House. Well if he didn't start shredding the most dischordant cacaphony that I'd ever heard.He had absolutely no idea what the blues scale was and didn't even know where the changes were supposed to be when he took over rhythm-or tried too,he was quite literally all over the neck but never hit one proper note.I got tired of his incessant shredding in about 30 seconds and made the excuse that I had gotten a hand cramp,so I understand full well how your drummer feels.
Rabs Posted March 1, 2012 Posted March 1, 2012 does his amp go up to 11? :P http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeOXsA8sp_E
Lazerface Posted March 1, 2012 Author Posted March 1, 2012 Haha we worked it out discussing musical direction. I dont need to steal a drummer cause we are basically a package deal. The other guitar player was shredding mainly because at this point in time is most comfortable with it, but feels limited by it and wants to learn more scales, theory, etc.
Lazerface Posted March 1, 2012 Author Posted March 1, 2012 http://6ipv.com video 3 is our set. Check it out and let me know if the shredding seems excessive. I am playing the dc jr with the mop of hair.
mikekefr Posted March 1, 2012 Posted March 1, 2012 Heyas,/wave, i watched your whole set and from what i saw and heard,i feel where ya comin from,in a nutshell,his manerisms and playing style were screamin 'zakk wylde' and the rest of the band came across w/ a bad company/skynyrd feel in my opinion.Your 2 different guitar sounds would compliment each other if the other dude didnt play w/ as much gain as he uses,and to reinforce your thoughts,he could stand to slow his lead work down a bit and not shred every single thing he plays.In an opinion,since you asked for one,the extended leads on the first song should have been placed towards the end of your set,only because your audience's 1st opinion of your band will be something close to,when you start the set w/ so much shredding and lead work,it just makes it look like the rest of the set will be more of the same.Something you could mention to him w/out coming across disrespectfull would be for him to find a medium gain setting'just to try' on the softer stuff like ramblin man,and possibly on some of his rythyms and save his 'blow your hair back' gain for his leads.Personally i like listening to and playing some Zakk,Vai,Satch,George Lynch styles but after awhile even a dedicated hair band lover like myself gets tired of hearing the 'shredfest'.Good luck with your band and i hope you guys work it out p.s. i hope you bought the 'fill in' bass player a drink !!!
LP4Me Posted March 1, 2012 Posted March 1, 2012 Here is a compromise you can try.......tell the guitar player that it would probably sound better to play his solos to more suit the songs that are being played.....that ripping through every solo doesn't always compliment the song......but, to make sure you don't crush his ego, tell him that the shredding is cool.......and let him do a little "shred fest" by himself between band sets. That way, the band can focus on playing songs without excessive shredding, and the guitar player can still have his "look at me" moment.
charlie brown Posted March 1, 2012 Posted March 1, 2012 Never been a "shredder," never will be. It doesn't interest me, at all. I can appreciate, even admire the technique...but, in the kind of music I love, it's inappropriate/counter productive, for the most part. Still, to each his/her own! CB
T Bone Posted March 1, 2012 Posted March 1, 2012 Since you asked for opinions... Yes, the shredding seems excessive (to me). Opinions, we've all got them. I tend to agree with your drummer. Thing is, there is some skill there. The Shredder seems to be a bit of a one trick pony, so that's what he's doing, because that's what he knows. It's cool in it's place and time, but done excessively it becomes monotonous and even irritating (ask the Drummer). The first song seemed way too fast to me, but it also didn't seem intentional on everyone's part. Seemed like the Shredder was speeding up, dragging the Drummer along for the ride (I could be wrong). Have him listen to, and follow the Drummer's lead on tempo (agree on it one way or the other, don't battle it out in front of an audience). The second song, seems like everyone was on board, to me still seemed too fast. A bass player would help you guys a lot with rhythm (I noticed the one who appeared in the video seemed to be sitting in). Maybe you and the Shredder could even take turns on bass? Just a thought. If the Shredder gets with the program and works scales/theory etc., and does work in another direction, you've got potential (again, opinion). He needs to learn a word also. Melodic. The things played need a variety, and some (much?) of it needs to be melodic (don't think I'm shooting softballs and elevator music at you, listen to some of the old guard heavy metal types, Metallica, Judas Priest, you'll see the melodic content there as well). That's my take, though I only watched the first two songs and a bit of one more (much slower, and he's still shreddin'!). Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be overly critical. It takes stones to post up a video here and open it up to criticism, and I ceratinly did see stuff I liked. Moose Lodge, cool of them to have an open night for bands etc. (don't think I've heard of that one going on, which Lodge is it?). Keep Rockin, and enjoy the ride. Don't shut the other guy down completely, as As I said, there is definitely skill there. He just needs to add to his repertoire and not unleash the shred all the time. Then, it'll seem really cool when he does!
Markini Posted March 1, 2012 Posted March 1, 2012 I am the leader for all jam sessions (no gigs yet). I am a benevolent leader. Our group is not a democracy. I am patient and promote good vibes. All jams are at my home. You cannot even come into my home unless I know you and trust you and like to hang out with you. Not even talking about jamming yet. We have fun when we play together. I play lead and rhythm / bass and back up vocals. My level is at semi professional, been playing on and off for 48 years. Our other guitar player is a professional, extremely versatile and a high level player( meaning he can play just about any genre of music profeciently). Our lead singer is an amateur but very talented, our last player is a very very good harmonica player. No drummer yet. We have group discussions on what music to play, but when we start playing I am the conductor, someone plays too slow or fast I call them out immediately in a polite manner. Someone plays too loud or soft same deal. Essentially I call the shots, I am not a dictator. My point is you have to have a leader, consensus can only go so far. We invite people to jam with us, the first criteria is their personality and are they easy to get along with and willing to take advice. Musical ability is way down on the list.You got to have good vibes to hang at my house. I admire someone who can shred really well, but I can only take it in small doses. My preference is for guitar players that are well rounded in Blues, Rock, classical and a little country and folk. Our pro is teaches us alot of old 60s / 70s tunes 96 tears, Spooky, masquerade, Joe Walsh, etc,, and we do our originals. I am melody guy. ( I can also rock out and shred a little too, but usually do that alone when practicting) Bottom line is we all work together as a team but the final word is from the leader (me). Actually in the two years we have been jamming every Friday. we have never had a disagreement or any ego tripping, we are all old farts and don't have time for that anymore. But someone has to supply direction. Peace.
Willmkent Posted March 1, 2012 Posted March 1, 2012 Hello all! Lazerface is my buddy and he encouraged me to join this forum and check it out! So I am the "shredder". So far I have read a lot of really good input from you guys and truthfully most of you are right, it's pretty obvious that my biggest inspiration is zakk wylde at least from his pride and glory era. And it is also true I was really using pretty much the same licks over and over again. I think it's pretty important to know that I picked the guitar back up after 6 years in nov of 2011 when I bought my latest les Paul. I am I huge admiration of players who discipline themselves to learn scales and theory. My buddy Lazerface and I have been jammin frequently since nov and came up with the opportunity to play at the moose so we put a little set together which I learned 2 of the songs in only a day or two before the gig! So I guess without rambling on too long, I agree with a lot of the input that was offered. See I was pretty nervous before the set so I kinda defaulted to playing the things I really didn't think I would mess up! The drummer hadn't played or even practiced with us at all since I started playing again or before the gig so I supposed maybe my newbism back into the game rubbed him the wrong way by more of a shock factor, however I do have a question do people look down on zakk wylde for his playing style? Should I be paying much more attention to other players? I am questioning this with reference to zakks career with ozzy and pride & glory, not so much black label because I feel his true talents and showmanship were in their prime much earlier on. As far as having stones to post the video, how can a player ever get better without an outsiders perectuve! Thanks for the the responses all?
FredD Posted March 1, 2012 Posted March 1, 2012 I am the leader for all jam sessions (no gigs yet). I am a benevolent leader. Our group is not a democracy. I am patient and promote good vibes. All jams are at my home. You cannot even come into my home unless I know you and trust you and like to hang out with you. Not even talking about jamming yet. We have fun when we play together. I play lead and rhythm / bass and back up vocals. My level is at semi professional, been playing on and off for 48 years. Our other guitar player is a professional, extremely versatile and a high level player( meaning he can play just about any genre of music profeciently). Our lead singer is an amateur but very talented, our last player is a very very good harmonica player. No drummer yet. We have group discussions on what music to play, but when we start playing I am the conductor, someone plays too slow or fast I call them out immediately in a polite manner. Someone plays too loud or soft same deal. Essentially I call the shots, I am not a dictator. My point is you have to have a leader, consensus can only go so far. We invite people to jam with us, the first criteria is their personality and are they easy to get along with and willing to take advice. Musical ability is way down on the list.You got to have good vibes to hang at my house. I admire someone who can shred really well, but I can only take it in small doses. My preference is for guitar players that are well rounded in Blues, Rock, classical and a little country and folk. Our pro is teaches us alot of old 60s / 70s tunes 96 tears, Spooky, masquerade, Joe Walsh, etc,, and we do our originals. I am melody guy. ( I can also rock out and shred a little too, but usually do that alone when practicting) Bottom line is we all work together as a team but the final word is from the leader (me). Actually in the two years we have been jamming every Friday. we have never had a disagreement or any ego tripping, we are all old farts and don't have time for that anymore. But someone has to supply direction. Peace. +1
FredD Posted March 1, 2012 Posted March 1, 2012 bump in hope of feedback! As a Blues, Jazz Rock Fusion player for many years (40+), I can only suggest that you keep learning and improving, and you will get there
mikekefr Posted March 1, 2012 Posted March 1, 2012 Hello all! Lazerface is my buddy and he encouraged me to join this forum and check it out! So I am the "shredder". So far I have read a lot of really good input from you guys and truthfully most of you are right, it's pretty obvious that my biggest inspiration is zakk wylde at least from his pride and glory era. And it is also true I was really using pretty much the same licks over and over again. I think it's pretty important to know that I picked the guitar back up after 6 years in nov of 2011 when I bought my latest les Paul. I am I huge admiration of players who discipline themselves to learn scales and theory. My buddy Lazerface and I have been jammin frequently since nov and came up with the opportunity to play at the moose so we put a little set together which I learned 2 of the songs in only a day or two before the gig! So I guess without rambling on too long, I agree with a lot of the input that was offered. See I was pretty nervous before the set so I kinda defaulted to playing the things I really didn't think I would mess up! The drummer hadn't played or even practiced with us at all since I started playing again or before the gig so I supposed maybe my newbism back into the game rubbed him the wrong way by more of a shock factor, however I do have a question do people look down on zakk wylde for his playing style? Should I be paying much more attention to other players? I am questioning this with reference to zakks career with ozzy and pride & glory, not so much black label because I feel his true talents and showmanship were in their prime much earlier on. As far as having stones to post the video, how can a player ever get better without an outsiders perectuve! Thanks for the the responses all? Hey man,good to see u here,coming from someone who loves Zakk as you do,his early ozzy stuff/stillborn era.I could suggest some melodic guitarists' to listen to and check out thier 'melodies', listen to some leads like,38 special 'so caught up in you' or priest 'heading out to the highway',and heres a good one,poison's 'life goes on'that song is a perfect example how he held off till after a few melodic runs then shreds out the lead ending.Dont get me wrong,i like the song but i dont worship CC,all the bands i suggested,have faster songs in which they lead faster and shred in thier own way.Every gig i played i did 'wonderful tonight' it was one of my songs to sing thru the gig,so i mixed it up and played the original lead as far as the main 'hook' or 'riff',then i'd play what i thought EVH or Eric Johnson would play if they were the guest on that song,or as close as i could make it sound,not on purpose,just doing some mild bends into slow tapping to incorporate my playing style into the song but still applying the 'hook' before,during,and at the leads end.Try to incorporate your own lead in 'wonderful tonight' and mix it up so you think people will enjoy it enough to dance to w/out holding thier ears due to excessive gain, Your 1st song,as i mentioned on my reply,make the crowd wait a 'little while' before you go at them w/ guns blazin.As to your question,Zakk is not looked down upon,hes great at what he does,and im not sayin the guys i mentioned are great by any means,just leads that popped to mind atm, and also check out the lead on 'Just between you and me' by April wine..listen to it till the point you can whistle it or humm it,that would be a melodic lead imo ,i say all this from having been where you are.It took me growing in age as well as growing musically to realize that you can still dazzle people w/ your playing and not play 100 notes per min..Good luck man and be sure to put your progress up on the site so we can check it out. peace out, Mike,,,,, Also check out the lead on 'goodbye to romance' by Ozzy,Randy's version,now him i DO worship ,,,i just googled a live version with Zakk playin,i thought you played like him so perfect example,check out how he cut back on gain,till the time was appropriate.I didnt post it here cause of ozzys language lol.
Willmkent Posted March 1, 2012 Posted March 1, 2012 thanks for the feedback man, Randy is a true musician of versatility! I watched the video over and over thinking the same thing "why do I keep playing the same thing and fast" and in all honesty even after starting up I was still pretty nervous. having said that It still turned out to be pretty fun but even more, it turned out to be a learning experience where I can grow from. Hopefully it didn't scare the other band members into thinking that its my only style. Im into all different kinds of music so its not just zakks career, I just happen to favor him through majority of interest in his music but I don't want to BE him. To me his showmanship is very impressive and I really enjoy watching his performances. But all and all I really appreciate the kind words and the advice for success. However I would really like to hear further feedback from the first person who replied that told the story of the boyfriend who came to the house. Although I wouldn't say his story is me, i would like to hear his opinion now that we posted the video up there. Thanks to every one who took the time to lend a set of eyes and their advice Cheers -Will
Guest farnsbarns Posted March 1, 2012 Posted March 1, 2012 Hello all! Lazerface is my buddy and he encouraged me to join this forum and check it out! So I am the "shredder". So far I have read a lot of really good input from you guys and truthfully most of you are right, it's pretty obvious that my biggest inspiration is zakk wylde at least from his pride and glory era. And it is also true I was really using pretty much the same licks over and over again. I think it's pretty important to know that I picked the guitar back up after 6 years in nov of 2011 when I bought my latest les Paul. I am I huge admiration of players who discipline themselves to learn scales and theory. My buddy Lazerface and I have been jammin frequently since nov and came up with the opportunity to play at the moose so we put a little set together which I learned 2 of the songs in only a day or two before the gig! So I guess without rambling on too long, I agree with a lot of the input that was offered. See I was pretty nervous before the set so I kinda defaulted to playing the things I really didn't think I would mess up! The drummer hadn't played or even practiced with us at all since I started playing again or before the gig so I supposed maybe my newbism back into the game rubbed him the wrong way by more of a shock factor, however I do have a question do people look down on zakk wylde for his playing style? Should I be paying much more attention to other players? I am questioning this with reference to zakks career with ozzy and pride & glory, not so much black label because I feel his true talents and showmanship were in their prime much earlier on. As far as having stones to post the video, how can a player ever get better without an outsiders perectuve! Thanks for the the responses all? You just earned my respect (Sounds slightly arrogant but can't be arsed to reword it, you know what I mean), a +1 for you. taking constructive criticism that you didn't directly ask for well and asking for more! Good Man. I agreed with the consensus that your a good player but it felt limited, if you had a six year break up to last Nov then that's understandable.
LP4Me Posted March 1, 2012 Posted March 1, 2012 Be sure to change it up and keep it fresh. Being able to shred is a great gift, but don't be a one trick pony. Play melodic solos that compliment the song, and then throw some quick runs in there also. I think that solos sound great with a mix of melody and some quick runs thrown in....I think it's much more pleasing to the crowd to throw the fast, shredding runs in sparingly.
Willmkent Posted March 2, 2012 Posted March 2, 2012 I've started to learn the solo to bark at the moon, which i find to be pretty difficult to get down. It incorporates a bunch of different cool riffs fast and slow. I think getting myself used to playing things like this will give me better feel for the melody of the songs and music in general. Which brings me to my next point why didn't Jake E Lee and ozzy work out. This is one hell of a song!
mikekefr Posted March 2, 2012 Posted March 2, 2012 I believe Jake E Lee went on to do stuff w/ Badlands,as Zakk did w/ Black Label Society,i would imagine they wanted to take a stab at "calling the shots" and having control of the music's direction.One thing about Ozzy,he has always had awesome guitarist'.Could you imagine being in Zakks shoes and getting the ozzy gig? 16 yr old? if i read correctly...what a life changer that must have been.I much prefer Ozzys music over sabbath but that is just a personal preference thing,thats one thing cool about this forum is the different ages of people and thier influences,the different music styles played,the different opinions offered.My 1st album was 'paranoid' and there are several good songs on there,especially war pigs,but theres something about that driving beat of 'over the mountain' that does it for me.
Willmkent Posted March 2, 2012 Posted March 2, 2012 Yea there has been so much talent through Ozzy. Now even Gus g is pretty good. I dont really like how sizzly gain his amp settings are but he still plays well IMO
stein Posted March 3, 2012 Posted March 3, 2012 My opinion? I think BOTH the drummer and the guitarist need to chill on the shredding. I think you all should forget about the leads, the fills, and the flashes of greatness, and get down to the song, the tone, and the rhythm. There were some serious timing issues coming from the drums, and nearly all were fill related. Listen back to it, and COUNT 1..2..3..4..and you will see what I mean. In many cases after the fill, the ONE doesn't come back on the one, causing everyone else to be a bit unsure and sloppy. Also, the rhythm of the fills were often not played to the rhythm of the beat, meaning the fills had a different rhythm to them. It kinda sounds a bit like the drummer is trying to follow the others? The gain levels? I think there was so much distortion from both guitarist it was hard to hear what you guys were playing most of the time. During leads, the only thing I could really make out was the "speed", but other than that, I could'nt tell what was being played. For advise, I would say first thing first: Make a rule that the DRUMMER is in charge of the beat and the rhythm. Everyone follows the drummer, regardless of WHAT the beat is or who decides what he plays. Once the drummers establishes the beat, everyone plays to the beat of the drummer. He is KING of the beat. For the guitarist, play the tune FIRST. Make sure you are playing and presenting a tune BEFORE you improvise. If there is a chord that belongs there, make sure you play it on time and how you want to play it. If you strum, strum to the beat of the drummer. Don't stop and start again. Play deliberately, and play what you are going to play like you mean it and don't let up. Then. decide if it is what you want or don't want. You guys have a lot of potential, and obviously, some talent. I think if you first establish some tunes and are kicking them out, you won't have any issues with who is shredding too much or being too fancy, because it will all fit if you are all playing your roles.
Willmkent Posted March 3, 2012 Posted March 3, 2012 Thank you for some solid advice!! One thing that I don't think was really mentioned is that the drummer hasn't practiced or played with us at all! So basically what happened was the drummer listened to the songs before the gig and just winged it. We never played any of those songs as a full band at all. I know I need to expand my playing for sure and watching the video makes for a great lesson to myself, however I must stick up for myself in this respect, the drummer spoke down towards my playing but didn't bother one time out of the 30 or more jams that the other guitarist and I had to even show up to see how things were. So that was where I was disappointed
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