ParlourMan Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 No probs, Del. The woody is away for repair so I have no way to check the bridge until it comes back, the others are fine as in 'fitting with traditional', now here's the clinch, if the woody comes back and I find that I am looking at a 2 part fretboard or a 2 part bridge, what am I going to do? Nothing... it's a great guitar. full-stop! Granted I might think that its entirely possible it might not fetch the price of another woody which has more traditionally desirable features, but it's my guitar, I'm rather fond of it, extremely so... It's at least 10 months old, I've had it at least 8, so I don't think it will have a 2 piece bridge or board, but you never know. Taking the fickleness of the market out of play I really don't believe these features could be audibly identified. So from a sound perspective it's a bit of a non-starter, from a scientific construction stance, it's a bit of a non-starter too, the only difference in the guitars is the fact that they fall in to non-traditional grey area's, the irony being they're named 'true vintage' ;) We've seen it so many times, people can get extremely fussy over appointments and period correct specs, especially when they're dropping thousands of dollars/pounds/euros on a guitar. It's not the first time on the subject we have seen statements such as "laminate parts don't belong on a guitar costing $xxxx" and so on.... The reason I put truths as 'truths' as I don't think many of them are actually true, they're repeated so often they become truths even though factually they're dubious... For instance; Gibson make loads of duds, it's a blanket statement you don't have to look very hard to find on the internet and while it's entirely possible the odd guitar escapes through that is just not quite up to the sum of it's parts for one factor or another, I'll bet there are more returns in other firms purely on the basis that they make many many more units per year. to get to he truth it would take companies to disclose this (impossible) and then work on percentages etc... but that factual basis is not present in the market therefore the truths are based on nonsense we see here there and everywhere on forums. ...and this is for a company that sells everything it makes too! Bonkers! While on the subject of other forums, they have elite posters who's every word is clung to by many, new people come in and accept these guru's are the base for all that is true because many other people do and subsequently take on-board their opinions regardless of questioning agenda's etc... then go and rehash them elsewhere. Is a 59 LP so much better than one from a year or two later, or one from today? no... but a difference of up to a quarter of a million dollars says it is... That's just market forces that we cannot change. The big explosion here was the use of 'inferior' and as I said, I don't consider them inferior from an instrument perspective, but from a purist/traditional point of view they can be perceived that way. The relentless bashing this will take for a long time on forums will only propagate that. Are all the pre-war, high dollar originals great? No... The process had no standardisation, they are much more of a case by case affair than anything produced today, even by companies less prestigious than Gibson, but rarity and elitism considered many many mediocre examples will command higher value than they're technically worth. With these in mind, it's not infeasible to think somewhere in the future the TV runs of 167 pieces will be more coveted than the standard TV models that came after it, the standards will be more sought after than the Lacey act one's etc.... As I've said, the posts were most definitely not meant to offend anyone... more just an observation on the markets and my own opinion on how they will be viewed further down the line. I could be entirely wrong and they will fetch higher prices due to the rarity of them given it's a temporary solution, but I don't think I am. I'm certainly no expert though so my thoughts should be taken as a individual opinion and nothing more. All the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roughdiamond Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 This J-45 TV has a monster crack in the lower bout (repaired) that has me much more concerned, that it will blow up in my lap someday, than a (nicely) laminated bridge or fretboard would have - but like I said, I play 'em, I don't collect 'em - and I never buy thinking I'll get my money out of 'em. BTW this crack was not my doing - its a long story as this guitar was stolen from David Hidalgo, and bounced around the L.A. freeways in the back of a pickup truck before it was recovered. That crack saved me well over a thousand bucks, on a helluva nice player. /quote] Hey Duluthdan could you please tell us the long story on David's 45? Maybe even on a new thread or something? Mr Hidalgo rocks whether it's on nylon or elec strings and a very talented songwriter to boot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisA83 Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Why is that? Because he went on to regret it... (laminate bridge/fretboard) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wootpow Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 [lol] [lol] [lol] i rest my case btw from your signature it looks like you aint buying ANY Gibsons Perhaps it has something to do with the laminate bridge and fingerboards.Could that be possible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 The internet is a wonderful place, I have never owned an acoustic, but think I have a good basic understanding of where to start. The journey started looking at martins, and may still one day end up with a d-18. To be truthful, I did not like the look of the j-45 , the burst, the pickgard, but it began to grow on me. The mojo of the j-45tv headstock, the wood, the glue, the gibson name, the history of the guitar, I have grown to love the looks. The real kicker was a discussion of sound engineers talking about cl-icky sounding guitar recordings,(hint starts with a T) and eq, about 3 of them all had the same solution to the problem. Use a j-45 today it ships out and has been overnighted, one wake up left I suppose. Gonna be a long day. Thank you all for your reply’s, I can tell your a great group of guys that enable me double and triple up payments to do this all over again on the les pual standard I have lusted after for many years....lol Just noticed and thought I'd point out (considering the traction the OPs other thread got on here) that in spite of the fact that chipss 'never previously owned an acoustic' - he immediately upon receipt of his j45, found issues, including the two piece bridge which no one here had yet noticed. Sort of makes you wonder... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Just noticed and thought I'd point out (considering the traction the OPs other thread got on here) that in spite of the fact that chipss 'never previously owned an acoustic' - he immediately upon receipt of his j45, found issues, including the two piece bridge which no one here had yet noticed. Sort of makes you wonder... It just means that the rest of us are oblivious, and more interested in the way the guitar sounds than anything else. For better or worse, the OP brought a different perspective to bear, and forced us to look at things somewhat differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParlourMan Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 I suppose the fact that it's a 'temporary solution' could be argued as demonstrating that even Gibson feel this is a compromise of their designs... If they were more than happy with it and customers were more than happy with it, it would be a longer term option. The frantic search to get back to business as usual backs that up. The real shame is that it's an 'outside influences' business response but the criticism that will follow for the next while won't reflect that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 I suppose the fact that it's a 'temporary solution' could be argued as demonstrating that even Gibson feel this is a compromise of their designs... If they were more than happy with it and customers were more than happy with it, it would be a longer term option. The frantic search to get back to business as usual backs that up. The real shame is that it's an 'outside influences' business response but the criticism that will follow for the next while won't reflect that. In part it is a temporary solution because it is a more expensive solution, since it takes more time to laminate the parts and then machine them than it does to machine them out of solid stock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParlourMan Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 In part it is a temporary solution because it is a more expensive solution, since it takes more time to laminate the parts and then machine them than it does to machine them out of solid stock. That's the thing Nick, I don't disagree with you there... it probably is an extra step in the process, but ultimately it will be viewed as a less than ideal step in the process and it's evident there are many who feel it's a compromise to the 'normal' process. I can only say that if I had found out any of mine were laminate 'Lacey act' guitars, while I might have been sour about it for a fleeting moment, I would still want to keep my guitars and I would certainly try to avoid any massive knee-jerk reaction about it. On the other hand I can see the reasons why someone ordering online would return such a model in the hope of finding a pre-Lacey version of the same model. I still don't know for one of my own guitars, so maybe I will have something to add from both sides of the table, who knows... I'm sure the 'diminishing returns' argument has come up here as many times as it has on other forums, and when you get into the realms of spending thousands on a guitar, it's the small details for many buyers that separate what they'll buy and what they won't. The one thing that's for sure, everyone looking over a recent model will now be checking, if it was of no consequence that wouldn't be the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 That's the thing Nick, I don't disagree with you there... it probably is an extra step in the process, but ultimately it will be viewed as a less than ideal step in the process and it's evident there are many who feel it's a compromise to the 'normal' process. I can only say that if I had found out any of mine were laminate 'Lacey act' guitars, while I might have been sour about it for a fleeting moment, I would still want to keep my guitars and I would certainly try to avoid any massive knee-jerk reaction about it. On the other hand I can see the reasons why someone ordering online would return such a model in the hope of finding a pre-Lacey version of the same model. I still don't know for one of my own guitars, so maybe I will have something to add from both sides of the table, who knows... I'm sure the 'diminishing returns' argument has come up here as many times as it has on other forums, and when you get into the realms of spending thousands on a guitar, it's the small details for many buyers that separate what they'll buy and what they won't. The one thing that's for sure, everyone looking over a recent model will now be checking, if it was of no consequence that wouldn't be the case. Agree with you 100%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wootpow Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Agree with you 100%. X2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retrorod Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 In part it is a temporary solution because it is a more expensive solution, since it takes more time to laminate the parts and then machine them than it does to machine them out of solid stock. It is one more step,Nick....but a very small one...IMO. Laminate up several board feet, and Voila! ....many bridges routed! Not a big deal in the production of a Gibson! I will say that I prefer vintage-made Gibsons Vs Modern-made....for the simple fact that.... you just can't beat "old-growth" wood! Alot of folks talk about tonewood and 'alternative' tonewoods, but there is a reason that vintage,brings a premium price....You can never achieve 'that' tone again...GET IT? I don,t want to 'diss' anyones New Gibson. I hope it is the best playing and sounding Gibson, ever A guitar is very personable and I am sure everybodies Gibson is the "SNIZZLE"...i SAY "RIGHT on" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuanCarlosVejar Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 It is one more step,Nick....but a very small one...IMO. Laminate up several board feet, and Voils! ....many bridges routed! Not a big deal in the production of a Gibson! I will say that I prefer vintage-made Gibsons Vs Modern-made....for the simple fact that.... you just can't beat "old-growth" wood! Alot of folks talk about tonewood and 'alternative' tonewoods, but there is a reason that vintage,brings a premium price....You can never achieve 'that' tone again...GET IT? I don,t want to 'diss' anyones New Gibson. I hope it is the best playing and sounding Gibson, ever A guitar is very personable and I am sure everybodies Gibson is the "SNIZZLE"...i SAY "RIGHT on" I also think that the Trees from 50 or 80 years ago were in a better natural environment than todays trees. so in a way they were "healthier" trees than those of today.Maybe that is also part of the vintage sound JC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipss36 Posted March 22, 2012 Author Share Posted March 22, 2012 Just noticed and thought I'd point out (considering the traction the OPs other thread got on here) that in spite of the fact that chipss 'never previously owned an acoustic' - he immediately upon receipt of his j45, found issues, including the two piece bridge which no one here had yet noticed. Sort of makes you wonder... What is it exactly are You are wondering about ??? I did not build it that way sir, I have many very high end classical guitars, I think I know a few things about tone woods, resale , and Gibson dropped the ball on this one, a lesser quality wood was used in less desirable ways. and that's a fact...name one high end guitar out there with lamated bridges and veneered fret boards other than gibson It will be less dessirable in the long run, the laminated bridge and fretboard did nothing to impove tone, it just got Gibson out of a jam... I sir just get the bill... So go ahead and question my integity???? this place is trip, And now I wonder.... I wonder if Gibson told you to jump off a cliff hey its the best thing For your tone.....indeed would.. I tip my hat , and walk away shaking my head with a furred brow... Good day ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisA83 Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 I also think that the Trees from 50 or 80 years ago were in a better natural environment than todays trees. so in a way they were "healthier" trees than those of today.Maybe that is also part of the vintage sound JC You just made me wonder - how old are the trees that are used to make current Gibsons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParlourMan Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 You just made me wonder - how old are the trees that are used to make current Gibsons? Good question! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blindboygrunt Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 You just made me wonder - how old are the trees that are used to make current Gibsons? you guys are REALLY into gibsons arent you ? :-D you know you're just a few steps away from wanting to know what height the tree was ? i'm not having a go , just astounded :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParlourMan Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 you guys are REALLY into gibsons arent you ? :-D you know you're just a few steps away from wanting to know what height the tree was ? i'm not having a go , just astounded :-) Not really ;) The reason I ask is we often see 'old growth' mentioned etc... if the wood used in the current manufacturing process is fairly young it might add some further debate on the wood/age factors etc... it's something I'm not convinced of. Vintage one for me is a mixed bag, guitars often referred to as with vintage tone are one of two things: 1) Actual vintage guitars - yet these vintage originals were new when they were making all these glorious old recordings. how strange!!!! 2) Modern guitars appearing to have a vintage voice. - What actually is a vintage voice? it's not comparable with current examples of vintage guitars as that's not how they would have sounded back then. Secondly vintage recording equipment coloured the sound quite a bit so the 'true' sound of any particular guitar recorded under those circumstances is unknown. While we can wax lyrical (and do..) on all manner of threads, it more often than not comes down to simpler categories 1) Those looking for the 'originals' in the aged/vintage market 2) Those looking for modern reproductions of classic models reflecting a tone of already aged guitars. 3) Those looking for modern reproductions of classic models with the correct detailing. The more 'old worldly' the process can be presented the more authenticity it is presumed to have. 4) Those looking to buy into the brand, brand image and iconic model status 5) Those who stumble over one, thought it sounded great and took a punt. To say the trees were different back then and that's why vintage sounds different seems a little unfounded, we have no way to compare the ageing process and it's effects on the model. Chances are the vintage model has seen dramtic climate changes, possibly hasn't spen't it's entire life being babied and humidified etc.... so it's equally arguable that modern models will never sound like the vintage originals because we live in modern housing, with modern hearing systems and generally take care of acoustic guitars far better than those owners of Gibson models did 60-80 years ago. There's no solution or answer, so it's a circular topic that will come up again and again, each time there may be new chestnut thrown in to the mix, but more often than not it'll be the same old chestnuts debated yet again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipss36 Posted March 23, 2012 Author Share Posted March 23, 2012 My random thoughts. Well with fine wine the best vintages come from years the vines struggle to get by.. Like wise the growth rings on a tree that grow less wood In general will grow dense wood, Convercly A tree farm giving the trees every nutrient needed , will produce more wood that is less dence , Wide growth rings.... The cost of raw wood used in guitar making reflects this, tight even growth rings will Cost more. there is a ton of marketing out there that say all kinds of stuff, but that's there job;) I have read and have found it to be true that super tight grain produces a better high end, the looser the grain a better low end, not all ways.. but in general . The magic happens some place in between, the bracing ,the top thickness, the neck heel all contribute , a classical has less string tention , and these things are more acute. My wide grained j 45 is light in the high end , and the same thing with my ramirez. not saying that is a bad thing , just what I have found. On the recording side , I would rather cut lows than highs to make things sit in a mix, or fix clicks. I know others who feel the same way. I think the ear is just more sensitive to the fundamental and it's harmonics in the higher freq's, I do know that is the place stage hight , and sound stage placement ques are sent to the brain ....due to the way the ear works... Start cutting in that area it just never sounds right to me.. Or I could just be full of it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Nilppeznaf Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 My wide grained j 45 is light in the high end , and the same thing with my ramirez. not saying that is a bad thing , just what I have found. So you have decided to keep the J45 Chips? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipss36 Posted March 24, 2012 Author Share Posted March 24, 2012 yes I am going to keep it , and have the fretboard and bridge redone in brazilian rosewood, think a j45 deserves it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobby b Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 yes I am going to keep it , and have the fretboard and bridge redone in brazilian rosewood, think a j45 deserves it. The bridge would be a regular job for most luthiers, but wouldn't a fret board swap be one helluva major job? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 The bridge would be a regular job for most luthiers, but wouldn't a fret board swap be one helluva major job? It's an expensive job, and it will void the warranty, but I suspect it will be a labor of love. I understand it completely, having poured a lot of money into my old J-45 over the years. I just hope you've got the right guy to do the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Nilppeznaf Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 yes I am going to keep it , and have the fretboard and bridge redone in brazilian rosewood, think a j45 deserves it. WOW That guitar must sound pretty sweet But why anyone would fork out all that money on a brand new J45 TV, not be satisfied with it, have the option of returning it to acquire one with out features that REALLY must not be to their liking... to decide.... contemplate?... having a full fret board replacement ???????? EH? I am truly flabbergasted...haha Not having a dig at you Chips... each to their own... and it's your cash and instrument. A full fretboard replacement? Man how much would that cost? i suppose the neck would not have to come off fully... but that shurely must be one hell of a job. In fact I have trouble believing anyone would do it...... not doubting your intentions... but man... Just so many more easier..cheaper options... like I say.. that J45 must be a sweet guitar... LAMINATES an ALL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Nilppeznaf Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 It's an expensive job, and it will void the warranty, but I suspect it will be a labor of love. I understand it completely, having poured a lot of money into my old J-45 over the years. I just hope you've got the right guy to do the job. fair enough Nick..as you say an OLD J45... i'm assuming you had work doing that needed doing mostly..yes?.. although I do think you had a fair amount of purely cosmetic work done also? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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