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High Wattage Amps


Rocky4

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I took my 15 watt Pro Jr to play with some guys a while back and it was too loud. I don't think my Marshall Class 5 would have been usable either. Both amps have no master volume. They break up naturally as you turn them up, like all amps used to be. At what point in amp history did 50 -100 watt amps become in need? If my little combos can peel the paint off of walls, why would somebody want a bigger amp? Any big crowd would require a P.A,

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I took my 15 watt Pro Jr to play with some guys a while back and it was too loud. I don't think my Marshall Class 5 would have been usable either. Both amps have no master volume. They break up naturally as you turn them up, like all amps used to be. At what point in amp history did 50 -100 watt amps become in need? If my little combos can peel the paint off of walls, why would somebody want a bigger amp? Any big crowd would require a P.A,

 

Back in the day, PA equipment was no where near as good as it is now, and wasn't as common to mic amps as it is now. Those bands needed volume to cut through. Vox made their first 100 watters because the Beatles needed something to get them through Shea Stadium. AND IT STILL WASN'T LOUD ENOUGH!!!! And bands back then wanted to be loud. To be honest with ya I think that bands today should be like that. Explains why a lot of today's music has no power or balls behind it. Ask our own Duane for his two cents. There was never anything under 40 watts onstage with most bands (unless you were like Brian May and chain-linked AC30s---which could take out a Marshall if you ran a bunch together). In the studio, Eric Clapton preferred a Fender Champ, but live he used Music Man 100 watters (or something in that arena). Plus, small amps would easily blow up because they were really pushing things, so big amps were needed. You needed stacks. Running more than two heads with a shitload of 4x12s was the way to go in the late 70s/early 80s.

 

Another thing is the headroom of a high powered amp. A cranked Marshall is of course a nice distortion sound, but it still has tons of headroom. A lot of people miss the point that loud amps are the rock sound. Originally, people needed headroom because they wanted clean tones (hence the high-powered Twin). But a 100 watt head with a 4x12 or two produces a tight, clear, ballsy sound that you cannot get with little combos. A loud, cranked up 100 watt Marshall with a 4x12 is what gives you THE TONE. Sure, combos are more friendly and practical but who said rock and roll is?

 

All in all, it depends on what you like. For blues and country, low wattage combos are great, but if you really wanna rock, a 50 to 100 watt head and a 4x12 is the way to go. And always remember, for heavy rock, DISTORTION AND OVERDRIVE BOXES DO NOT APPLY (unless you're using a Tube Screamer or something to boost. Which I usually don't depending on the amp. For example, a JCM 800 will benefit hugely from a kick in the *** courtesy of a TS-808 but a Soldano SLO will definitely handle anything on its own---unless you're playing Norwegian death metal or extreme metal---which I probably never will). And I thought I'd just add this in: there is nothing wrong with rackmount effects no matter what EVOL! says. (EVOL!, I am just yanking your chain. IMHO you're one of the better guys on this forum; arguments about Nirvana, grunge music, and hair metal aside :) AWK!

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Summer, 1969...I had my Marshall "Major" (200 watt) full stack, with my guitar pre-amped

into a Fender Twin Reverb w/JBL's, then into the Marshall. The Bass player used 2 Vox

Super Beatle amps, on roller stands. The Sound/"Tone" was phenomenal!! I've never had

as good a raw tone, since...even though I can get decent tone, now, from almost anything, with

just a little trial and error/tweaking, etc. But, that 1969 combination, was KILLER! Only

problem was, it was So Loud, that people danced outside the building, on several occasions. [biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]

In one instance, the proprietor made us turn down...so, I just unplugged the Marshall, and my

bass player, unhooked one "Beatle" amp, and away we went! [tongue][thumbup]

Oh, to be 19, again! [biggrin]

 

CB

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Summer, 1969...I had my Marshall "Major" (200 watt) full stack, with my guitar pre-amped

into a Fender Twin Reverb w/JBL's, then into the Marshall. The Bass player used 2 Vox

Super Beatle amps, on roller stands. The Sound/"Tone" was phenomenal!! I've never had

as good a tone, since...even though I can get decent tone, now, from almost anything, with

just a little trial and error/tweaking, etc. But, that 1969 combination, was KILLER! Only

problem was, it was So Loud, that people danced outside the building, on several occasions. [biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]

In one instance, the proprietor made us turn down...so, I just unplugged the Marshall, and my

bass player, unhooked one "Beatle" amp, and away we went! [tongue]

Oh, to be 19, again![thumbup][biggrin]

 

CB

 

Well, I only meant the big time bands like Zeppelin, Cream, Hendrix, etc.

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Music got louder in the late 60's when transistor amp's and acoustic suspended speaker's became readily available and they where much easier to transport then the old tube amps and very large sub-boxes. The new PA Power amp's could throw massive amount's of wattage at the speaker's witch in turn could now accurately reproduce that power into clear and loud sound's. Thus bands could now play bigger venue's and the stage volume rises. Then the bands started using multiple stacks of 50 watt and 100 amp's. By the lat 70's and early 80's the bands where playing stadiums all the time so you can have a big stage and crank the heck out of those stack's.

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CB pretty well hit it.

 

"We" in the 1950s and 60s were using increasingly powerful tube stuff that was being developed because bands and other PA needs were increasingly needing and wanting power.

 

The problem is that unlike our ancestors a cupla thousands of years ago, we weren't thinking about acoustics.

 

That's why everybody, rock and country alike - even bluegrass and folkies! - got as big a stuff as they could either afford or carry. But it almost inevitably was all set up behind the band and we took a literally physical beating from it on stage and in the front rows of dancers/audience.

 

I remember playing gigs, driving a cupla hours home, and still not be able to hear the water running in the shower when I went to clean up a bit.

 

Another problem is that often in the back of a room all you heard was mush, depending on the acoustics of the place. It was horrid.

 

I think personally that about the time that SS amps and especially powerful PA systems became available at practical price points that "we" started to get a bit more professional about our sound.

 

The problem is that we also tend to be power freaks and equate big power to big sound. That's not necessarily the way it is, unless you're happy with a mix that never really is right if it comes directly from big amps. Then there are mixing drums and...

 

Nowadays I figure the amplification money should go into the sound system, then into guitar amps that will get "the tone" of some sort. I think our egos come into this in that we consider our guitar-pedal-amp system "our tone" rather than seeing it as part of an overall band system that will be somewhat changed through the board anyway. That's one reason why I'm not a "tone freak" as some other guitar pickers of dozens of styles seem to be. Heck, even a full-acoustic, no PA, gig will sound different in different venues.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'd still play as loudly in ways, but I'd rather have everybody in the joint get a dose of 90 decibels that sounded like music rather than 120 on stage, 110 in front for 30 feet, etc., then just mush at the tables past the dance floor.

 

m

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Yeah, Milod...that reminds me of another memory, involving amps, and the "sound cone,"

you're talking about. My dear mother, co-signed a loan, in 1968, so our band could buy

6 Vox Super Beatle amps, and a (then) State of the Art, Altec Lansing "Voice of the Theater,"

PA System. We were in heaven, with that setup. The first night, we got to use it all,

after it arrived, my mother drove 60 miles up, to see us perform, with the newly acquired

gear. She lasted about 2 numbers, and then I saw her get up, and leave, rather hurriedly.

When I got up, the next morning, as she was cooking breakfast, I asked her WHY she left so

suddenly, and so quickly. She said: "Oh, Charlie...I couldn't breath...the concussion from

your amps made me feel like I was going to have a 'heart attack!'" "I HAD to leave!" She

told me she couldn't believe, how loud we played. Yet, up on stage (in a Civic Auditorium)

it wasn't that loud, at all. At least, to US! But yeah, out about 30-40 feet, it was bone

crushing loud! LOL I had "her" experience, a year or two later, when I went to see "Deep

Purple," in a similar venue size. Unbelievable! It was a real "ear opener," for me. [tongue][biggrin]

 

CB

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Back when I was gigging I was the only one in the band who wasn't miced into the board-I didn't need to be.I used a 130W Traynor and a 135W Peavey Deuce daisy-chained together.I never had to set either one of these amps at full volume no matter how big the venue.I built up a reputation as being about the loudest guitarist in town-except of course Brian "Loud" McCleod of Chilliwack and The Headpins fame who was also gigging around town at the same time-he hadn't gotten "discovered" yet. I was pretty pleased to be in such good company.Brian had a couple of late 60s 1959 plexis-he .the envy of every guitarist in the province-mostly because of his unbelieveable virtuosity but also because of his amps and his near mint '57 Strat.There was something about the raw volume of an uber Wattage amp that just was beyond comparison and can't be duplicated or emulated by any other means.You haven't heard Dark Side of The Moon unless you heard Brian and his band Husky play it note for note with Brian nailing every little nuance and idiosyncracy of Gilmore's playing and adding his own flourishes which were every bit as incredible as Gilmore's. If you see any of The Headpin's early CDs or any of Chilliwacks with Brian on them,pick them up and prepare to be amazed.

 

Pardon my digressing from the topic but when I get on the topic of Brian McCleod I can't help but getting carried away,he passed away with cancer in the 90s just as his career was about to take off beyond huge.As far as rock musicians go he's definitely Newfoundland's favourite son and a virtuoso on at least a dozen instruments. He played every instrument on the Headpins album and the only other person on it was Darby Mills who just lended her vocals.When the album went platinum everybody wanted to know who this group of amazing musicians was not realizing that it was just Brian and he was left to scramble and round up 5 musicians who were gifted enough to play anywhere close to his style so that they could go on tour in support of the album.

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The story I love is when John of The Who went to Jim Marshall and asked for more power to be heard over Kieth and then Pete when to Jim and asked for more power to be heard over John. Also Pete wanted enough power to drown out the kids in the front row that would heckle the band. The 100 watt Marshall stack was born.

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Let me clarify my question. I understand the use of Marshall stacks in the late 60s and on. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Fender Twins from the mid 50s packed over 50 watts. Before rock took hold, why was such high wattage needed? Can you imagine a Tele played at that volume back in 50s? I think the sound would go through your head like a nail.

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I took my 15 watt Pro Jr to play with some guys a while back and it was too loud. I don't think my Marshall Class 5 would have been usable either. Both amps have no master volume. They break up naturally as you turn them up, like all amps used to be. At what point in amp history did 50 -100 watt amps become in need? If my little combos can peel the paint off of walls, why would somebody want a bigger amp? Any big crowd would require a P.A,

 

Arena's, big clubs and playing outside require amps with wattage..... most guitar players dont like their stage sound coming through a stage monitor [thumbdn]..... I like my stage sound from the amp and cabs, which means the amp has to be loud to be heard over the drums..... especially in a rock band

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I'm at a point where I ask myself, do I buy a half stack for gigging like a 50 watt head and a cab or do I just get a single speaker combo. My drummer said to me at our recent gig "half stacks are for high schoolers dude, you'll never need that kind of power". I do believe that a combo would easily handle the size places we play but I always love the stage presence of a nice stack

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When my band plays (mostly small to mid sized clubs) we keep our stage volume at a level where we can hear everyone in the band. We mic the drums and mic our guitar cabs, but typically the guitars are coming through the PA more as "balance" to the sound and are not at a high level through the PA. I think I would have a lot of trouble hearing my bandmates if I was running a 100 watt amp balls-out on stage....I don't think I would like that.....I KNOW our singer wouldn't like it! :blink:

 

I use a 30 watt Egnator Rebel and 2x12 cab.

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Let me clarify my question. I understand the use of Marshall stacks in the late 60s and on. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Fender Twins from the mid 50s packed over 50 watts. Before rock took hold, why was such high wattage needed? Can you imagine a Tele played at that volume back in 50s? I think the sound would go through your head like a nail.

 

I think Kaleb's earlier answer still covers it. The PA systems back then just didn't have the oomph to fill a room up, so the amps had to compensate. The 60's and 70's saw even bigger venues, and that's where things got really crazy. A friend that I used to jam with had a vintage Orange OR120 from the 70's. It didn't have a master volume. It was the loudest thing I've ever heard in my life. Louder than Motorhead.

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I think Kaleb's earlier answer still covers it. The PA systems back then just didn't have the oomph to fill a room up, so the amps had to compensate. The 60's and 70's saw even bigger venues, and that's where things got really crazy. A friend that I used to jam with had a vintage Orange OR120 from the 70's. It didn't have a master volume. It was the loudest thing I've ever heard in my life. Louder than Motorhead.

back in the 60s+70s there were more and more outside gigs and even the indoor ones probably did'nt have any PA and if it did it was no where near what was needed to work with the band ! [scared] so most bands at the time had to figure out what would be the largest amps that would be needed for where ever the might play! like CB with with the 200 watt major, plenty to turn up to if you need to and you could always turn down!a lot of bands even had their own PA set up, a little different today!those guys had quite an outlay of cash for the equiptment! even the the little bar gigs back then had no PA to mic into! ](*,)

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Theres just something about a half stack Marhsall thats magic, you know that right tone...

agreed but there is even more with a full stack!even more with CBs marsh. major! \:D/ man I would really, like to hear it cranked! especially now that I'am half deaf! :-$ [-(

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