stein Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Not much to say. Unless they take them apart and examine the windings, it is purely a process of elimination. Guess i will close this tread down since it it now gotten past the point of suggestions and has moved on to examining my character. By the way, the people who looked at this stuff well seasoned bench technicians. Signing off. I hope you aren't turned off to this forum, and it seems to me you ARE getting some geniune help efforts here. I have never met SEARCY, but from what I have read from him on this forum and other places, he is what I would call an extremely qualified 'guitar tech'. While it is difficult to diagnose a guitar over the web, his suggestions are very sound advice. (Get it? sound advice. hehe) I don't see any attack on your character here, but rather a question of your 'service/repair guy's' competence and motivation. You have to understand, that as for the reasons stated in this thread, pointing to a lack of sheilding in the control cavities, lack of Gibson logo on the pots, and pups reading different from each other is so "wrong" an explanation for your issue that it pretty much proves this guy should NOT be working on guitars, let alone calling himself a "Gibson repair center". He obviously does not have any experience or knowledge on what SHOULD be found inside a Gibson guitar, or any other guitar for that matter. And as SEARCY pointed out, and I will put it plainly, for a grounding issue, even if this tech was a below average tech in skill or qualification, a grounding or hum issue is something he should have been able to fix right on the spot. It isn't a challenge. And at the least, should be able to tell WHAT is wrong with the pups, if that was the problem. Not a question of IF it MAY be the pups because he can't find the problem. Unfortunately, there are many dishonest poeple working as guitar techs, who do make up reasons to take advantage and score free parts. An accusation of such is not far fetched, given the explanations presented. Please don't take this wrong, but remember you started this thread with accusations of poor quality of Gibson, and used explanations from a clearly unqualified person. The goal here is to have you with the guitar sounding and playing the way you want it. The best way to get that from this end of the computer is to find an honest and competent repair place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smalaney Posted March 14, 2012 Author Share Posted March 14, 2012 I hope you aren't turned off to this forum, and it seems to me you ARE getting some geniune help efforts here. I have never met SEARCY, but from what I have read from him on this forum and other places, he is what I would call an extremely qualified 'guitar tech'. While it is difficult to diagnose a guitar over the web, his suggestions are very sound advice. (Get it? sound advice. hehe) I don't see any attack on your character here, but rather a question of your 'service/repair guy's' competence and motivation. You have to understand, that as for the reasons stated in this thread, pointing to a lack of sheilding in the control cavities, lack of Gibson logo on the pots, and pups reading different from each other is so "wrong" an explanation for your issue that it pretty much proves this guy should NOT be working on guitars, let alone calling himself a "Gibson repair center". He obviously does not have any experience or knowledge on what SHOULD be found inside a Gibson guitar, or any other guitar for that matter. And as SEARCY pointed out, and I will put it plainly, for a grounding issue, even if this tech was a below average tech in skill or qualification, a grounding or hum issue is something he should have been able to fix right on the spot. It isn't a challenge. And at the least, should be able to tell WHAT is wrong with the pups, if that was the problem. Not a question of IF it MAY be the pups because he can't find the problem. Unfortunately, there are many dishonest poeple working as guitar techs, who do make up reasons to take advantage and score free parts. An accusation of such is not far fetched, given the explanations presented. Please don't take this wrong, but remember you started this thread with accusations of poor quality of Gibson, and used explanations from a clearly unqualified person. The goal here is to have you with the guitar sounding and playing the way you want it. The best way to get that from this end of the computer is to find an honest and competent repair place. I do appreciate all the advice and suggestions. I also have an electrical engineering degree, guitar circuits are very simple compared to the kinds of electrical circuits the guys i have gone to, work on - radar, sonar, hi-end custom sound systems and PA systems. The place I am taking it is a Certified Gibson Repair Center. We also checked the grounding from the bridge to the strings early on and this came out fine. Generally, the testing of grounds (by myself and others) has shown no problems. So I am left with the results of a process of elimination. No noise until I plug the guitar directly into the amp. Other guitars do not show the same level of noise using exactly the same cables, etc. Once we bypass the controls on the guitar and go directly from the pickup to the amp. the hum is still there. If the grounding on the bridge and the pickups come out correct with an ohm meter, then that ultimately leaves the Pickups's as the suspected problem. Yes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smalaney Posted March 14, 2012 Author Share Posted March 14, 2012 I hope you aren't turned off to this forum, and it seems to me you ARE getting some geniune help efforts here. I have never met SEARCY, but from what I have read from him on this forum and other places, he is what I would call an extremely qualified 'guitar tech'. While it is difficult to diagnose a guitar over the web, his suggestions are very sound advice. (Get it? sound advice. hehe) I don't see any attack on your character here, but rather a question of your 'service/repair guy's' competence and motivation. You have to understand, that as for the reasons stated in this thread, pointing to a lack of sheilding in the control cavities, lack of Gibson logo on the pots, and pups reading different from each other is so "wrong" an explanation for your issue that it pretty much proves this guy should NOT be working on guitars, let alone calling himself a "Gibson repair center". He obviously does not have any experience or knowledge on what SHOULD be found inside a Gibson guitar, or any other guitar for that matter. And as SEARCY pointed out, and I will put it plainly, for a grounding issue, even if this tech was a below average tech in skill or qualification, a grounding or hum issue is something he should have been able to fix right on the spot. It isn't a challenge. And at the least, should be able to tell WHAT is wrong with the pups, if that was the problem. Not a question of IF it MAY be the pups because he can't find the problem. Unfortunately, there are many dishonest poeple working as guitar techs, who do make up reasons to take advantage and score free parts. An accusation of such is not far fetched, given the explanations presented. Please don't take this wrong, but remember you started this thread with accusations of poor quality of Gibson, and used explanations from a clearly unqualified person. The goal here is to have you with the guitar sounding and playing the way you want it. The best way to get that from this end of the computer is to find an honest and competent repair place. I do appreciate all the advice and suggestions. I also have an electrical engineering degree, guitar circuits are very simple compared to the kinds of electrical circuits the guys i have gone to, work on - radar, sonar, hi-end custom sound systems and PA systems. The place I am taking it is a Certified Gibson Repair Center. We also checked the grounding from the bridge to the strings early on and this came out fine. Generally, the testing of grounds (by myself and others) has shown no problems. So I am left with the results of a process of elimination. No noise until I plug the guitar directly into the amp. Other guitars do not show the same level of noise using exactly the same cables, etc. Once we bypass the controls on the guitar and go directly from the pickup to the amp. the hum is still there. If the grounding on the bridge and the pickups come out correct with an ohm meter, then that ultimately leaves the Pickups's as the suspected problem. Yes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Last May (2011) I purchased a 1960's Custom Shop Les Paul from Guitar Center. After fixing some obvious problems (tubes, loose wires) on my new Fender amp, it became quite clear to me that the "hum" at medium to high volumes was coming from the guitar. The local Gibson repair center noted a few things. 1) No shielding on the either of the body cavities 2) Ground wiring incorrect 3) Non-standard pots (no Gibson name on the back of the pots) 4) Different impedance between the Bridge and Neck pickups. I took my 1964 vintage Musicman guitar (with built in pre-amp - shielded body cavity) hooked it to the same amp, no "hum. Now it has been a number of years since I got my electrical engineering degree, No offense, no attack on your character, but if I had a dollar for every eelektronnikal engineering genius I've seen run smack into the not sense making world of guitars I'd be pretty rich. but as hi-gain preamps on guitar amps have come to predominate the scene, shielding the electronics in the guitar is done specifically to cure this kind of (hum) problem. Gibson doesn't do that. Actually, not many if any guitar makers send out guitars that are "shielded" as you suggest. It just doesn't make much sense, because somebody is always going to be carping about barely audible buzz or hum that the company doesn't want to have to explain to them. You. Whomever. Gibson guitars previous actually had metal casing around the pots, etc specifically to eliminate these kinds of problems. I have contacted Guitar Center, but wonder is anyone else seeing these kinds of "quality issues with the guitars they buy from Gibson. I have always wanted a very nice, playable Les Paul, and after saving up for it (and numerous arguments with my wife about spending so much money on a guitar) I feel cheated. Guitars and guitar makers don't do what you want them to do, they don't even do what you think they should do. The guitar is still under warrantee, and it looks like the service center will try to get me a new set of pickups, but frankly, I would be hard pressed to recommend this (or any other Gibson Guitar) to anyone I know. smalaney It's ok, there are plenty of people that do and will continue to use Gibsons. The short answers, as people have so helpfully tried to give you, again: 1) No shielding on the either of the body cavities Right. If you want that done, you have to do it yourself. Too much hassle for them to stand behind if they do it. 2) Ground wiring incorrect Not unusual actually, the store should take care of that while you stare at the latest Shredderifical Amplifones that came out this week. 3) Non-standard pots (no Gibson name on the back of the pots) I don't know where you got that this is a requirement. It isn't. 4) Different impedance between the Bridge and Neck pickups. No offense to your higher education, but impedance is only one measure of any pickup, and "output" as measured by impedance should differ between a front and back, neck and bridge, whatever you care to call them, pickup. So gather up yer diplomas and put them aside. Remember that for every guy that just got themselves all balled up in some stupid thing that Fender or Gibson did with their guitar, there are three hundred that have been there and done that and know what to do about it, they'll help you, but they might sound like tools doing it because this is, after all, T3h 1nt4rwebz. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Plains Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 To assume "I did not know what i was buying" is a pretty big leap. Humbucking Pickups are intended to reduce hum. these do not. Every issue you mentioned in your first post - other than the hum and incorrect ground wire (if it is incorrect) - is completely normal and every historic reissue is the same. That's what I meant - that all these guitars are supposed to be this way and you thought they were wrong or incorrect based on what some repair shop told you. Sounds to me like the people assessing your guitar don't know what they're doing, or haven't worked on many historics. Either way, I would not let them touch the guitar again. Welcome to the forum. It's usually a good place for guitar addicts to learn and drool over each others gear. If you come out with a post like your first in this thread pointing out a bunch of Gibson QC issues that are really just a lack of your own knowledge about these guitars, people will likely pounce on you. They're like rabid animals. Oh, and if you don't mind, please stop typing within the quotes when you reply/quote someone. It makes it hard to read what you added. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Once we bypass the controls on the guitar and go directly from the pickup to the amp. the hum is still there. If the grounding on the bridge and the pickups come out correct with an ohm meter, then that ultimately leaves the Pickups's as the suspected problem. Yes? No. By bypassing the controls and wiring the pickups directly to the amp you have bypassed the string ground. This means the signal from the amp will have substantial hum. Did your repair tech come up with this test? If so he's either a moron or a con man. Either way he's ruining your $6000 Gibson Custom Shop 1960 Les Paul. If you and your electrician buddies came up with this test you have voided the warranty on your $6000 Gibson Custom Shop 1960 Les Paul. Your wife is right to be pissed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eracer_Team Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Actually my thought is. Why do you have to wait for this 'authorized shop' get you new pickups? From every other shop I've seen has many pickups around. Can't they for test purposes only; put in any other pickup just as a test? Surely they have to have other Gibson or non-Gibson pickups there they can toss in for a test. BTW.. glad Tim (aka R9) pointed this out; I was just about to I was having a hard time reading your replies; when your notes got blended into the quote; you can just start typing after the [ / quote ] . Oh, and if you don't mind, please stop typing within the quotes when you reply/quote someone. It makes it hard to read what you added. or if you want.. you don't need to Quote someone with hitting the reply button. just look under the dark blue like at the bottom of the posts. you'll see what section of the forum you're in (currently Les Paul) just below that you'll see a Green Arrow and the words Add Reply. if you click on that it opens a reply box for you to type without having to quote someone. cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 SMALANEY: just some random thoughts in an EFFORT to help: (although, understand no one can properly diagnose over the net). It is a common misconception that "humbuckers" ELIMINATE hum-they don't. In order to REDUCE hum, the coils must be balanced, or both coils must be equal. The more 'equal' they are, the more amount of hum is reduced. Many "humbuckers" are DESIGNED with unbalanced coils, for tone purposes, so you can't expect all humbuckers to be equal in the ability to reduce hum. So, it is relative from one guitar to the next. I would expect an LP with BB pups to be quiter than say, a Strat with SC pups. But if another guitar with more 'balanced' is quiter, it does not mean the Gibby is defective. Another thought: IF the 'sound' of the hum does NOT change at all when you touch the bridge or the strings, then it ain't connected. Whenever you touch ground, there SHOULD be at least a difference, wether more or less. Touching the bridge or strings SHOULD produce the same effect as touching the sleeve of the cable while it is plugged into the guitar (provided it is like most cables, being the sleeve is connected to the ground). If it doesn't, that os a good clue the ground is NOT connected somewhere in your guitar. Obviously, the volume must be up on the guitar. IF all these conditions are present, and the guitar SEEMS to not make any difference where you touch it, or the cable while it is plugged into the guitar, the source of the hum may not have anything to do with the guitar at all. If the hum is being introdued somewhere else, like a pedal or maybe the amp itself, trying to 'diagnose' the guitar may be your problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 In truth, the OP never asked us for help to fix his guitar. He just wanted to tell us how crappy it was. So much of this tale don't add up that I strongly suspect this is a fabricated story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smalaney Posted March 16, 2012 Author Share Posted March 16, 2012 Another comment that leads me to feel like i ought to leave this forum. Not fabricated. You are of course entitled to your opinion. My opinion is that while I did get many useful suggestions, which I much appreciate, these comments however make me wonder about the overall usefulness. The real issue is this. One of the original design criteria for the Humbucker pickup was to help reduce the hum (noise canceling magnetic fields) naturally produced by an electrical coil in an audio application. As the industry moved on, high gain preamps became prevalent in amplifiers. The noise, no matter how small from the pickups, became accentuated. One method for helping to eliminate the hum is to shield the various components in the guitar, not completely effect but it helps. That is why people shield the cavities in the guitar after purchase. The notion that Gibson does not do that in an order to duplicate the original design, is somewhat nonsensical. Shielding the body cavity to reduce hum will not change the tone or intrinsic sound of the guitar. That is why they put a metal plate between the pots and the guitar body to provide some additional shielding and grounding. The Custom shop Les Paul guitar I bought had none of that, but it should have been there. Even better would be to shield that body cavity completely. While this may add to the cost a bit, it would not be significant enough so that Gibson would take a big financial hit and they would likely pass the cost on anyway. People who buy these guitars are not interested in cheap. I did ask for help in fixing my guitar, but in all the ways I could figure, we tested the suggestions that were made and the problem still existed. I am now paying to get the cavity full shielded to see how much that helps the problem, I will faithfully report back to the forum on the output of that effort. I also seek understanding as to the rational behind why known electrical best practices, which would improve the users experience with the instrument, would be ignored. Just my 2 cents and my opinion. As i stated earlier, you are entitled to you opinion, as am I. Personal comments seem out of place here, but I guess that is the nature of these forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SugarBear Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 "Electrical best practices" were ignored because it's a REISSUE..... Ps - you spelled "shielding" wrong in the thread title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Why are you shielding the cavities? I thought the pickups were the problem? In fact, why shield the body cavities at all? The pickups have grounded covers and base plates that shield the pickups so shielding those cavities would be redundant. The pots and other components, if properly grounded will not induce 60 cycle hum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Another comment that leads me to feel like i ought to leave this forum. Not fabricated. You are of course entitled to your opinion. My opinion is that while I did get many useful suggestions, which I much appreciate, these comments however make me wonder about the overall usefulness. The real issue is this. One of the original design criteria for the Humbucker pickup was to help reduce the hum (noise canceling magnetic fields) naturally produced by an electrical coil in an audio application. As the industry moved on, high gain preamps became prevalent in amplifiers. The noise, no matter how small from the pickups, became accentuated. One method for helping to eliminate the hum is to shield the various components in the guitar, not completely effect but it helps. That is why people shield the cavities in the guitar after purchase. The notion that Gibson does not do that in an order to duplicate the original design, is somewhat nonsensical. Shielding the body cavity to reduce hum will not change the tone or intrinsic sound of the guitar. That is why they put a metal plate between the pots and the guitar body to provide some additional shielding and grounding. The Custom shop Les Paul guitar I bought had none of that, but it should have been there. Even better would be to shield that body cavity completely. While this may add to the cost a bit, it would not be significant enough so that Gibson would take a big financial hit and they would likely pass the cost on anyway. People who buy these guitars are not interested in cheap. I did ask for help in fixing my guitar, but in all the ways I could figure, we tested the suggestions that were made and the problem still existed. I am now paying to get the cavity full shielded to see how much that helps the problem, I will faithfully report back to the forum on the output of that effort. I also seek understanding as to the rational behind why known electrical best practices, which would improve the users experience with the instrument, would be ignored. Just my 2 cents and my opinion. As i stated earlier, you are entitled to you opinion, as am I. Personal comments seem out of place here, but I guess that is the nature of these forums. With all due respect, you have to at least try and appreciate how 'left field' the original post was, and how much your 'opinions' are out of the popular belief system. The majority who purchase the high dollar reproductions of vintage Gibsons want authenticity, and don't want to see anything different done than what was built for the original guitar the model is supposed to be replicating. The reason someone might think this is made up, or a troll effort, is because you oddly describe EXACTLY what SHOULD be in the model of guitar you name, and call it a something of a defective guitar. For a "certified Gibson service center" to say it isn't right is just too incredible to not wonder. Also, you should at least consider that for someone who seems to know electronics, or have access to 'experts' in this field, the fact your guitar is still having such a problem is very odd. Remember, you came out swinging first. And you are presuming to tell "experts" what should be right for a guitar that doesn't take an "expert" to fix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smalaney Posted March 17, 2012 Author Share Posted March 17, 2012 Mea culpa. Perhaps it I'd just the nature of my day job, and the rather bad day I was having, that caused it to come out in such a negative fashion. I also appreciate that my views are at odds with the majority, but I have received some useful and thoughtful responses and I appreciate those replys.. As I stated, the cavity where the pots and the switch is located are being shielded (as some have pointed out) and the grounding is being thoroughly re-checked. I am reminded by the story of the man who marries a woman and he comes enjoy an old family pot roast recipe. After watching her make it a few time he is struck by the fact that she cuts off an inch off each end of the roast before cooking, so he asks why. Her reply is that her mother made it that way and she did not want to diviate from the recipe for fear of changing the flavor and quality. He calls his mother in-law ands gets basically the same answer. Finally he calls the grand mother who tell him "I had to cut off an inch at each end of the roast In order to get it to fit into the only roasting pan I had and it just became a habit." Reissue for me should also encompass one of the original main criteria for buildinkg these guitars, which would be to make the best quality instrument that one can. Craftsmenship. The day I wrote at post I was confronted in my job with 2 different scenarios where people were doing things out of habit without examining to process to see if they could produce a better product. I have always respected craftsmen. The guitar I bought seemed more about selling nostalgia (which one could argue I was doing as well) than about producing the finest quality instrument. If I offended people on the list, my apologies, that was not my intent. I will let you know how it turns out after them changes are done and the grounding hs been re-verified. It may make some difference and it may not. In either case I own the guitar and will play it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Plains Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 The majority who purchase the high dollar reproductions of vintage Gibsons want authenticity, and don't want to see anything different done than what was built for the original guitar the model is supposed to be replicating. Yup, it would be a monumental fukc up if Gibson did otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eracer_Team Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 ok.. you want shielded control panels, you want to move into the future (assuming your story of the roast.) Gibson has something for you then. forget reissues, forget traditional' and standards,, you want one of these. Gibson FireBird X link 20 Revolutionary Features "Revolution" is a powerful word — and not one to be thrown around lightly. It indicates a sweeping change, obliterating the past and ushering in a new era. Firebird X does just that, with features that would have seemed like science fiction just a few years ago. If you don't believe us, take a tour of this beast and decide for yourself - the dynamic range exceeds 100dB. Even with high-gain distortion and compression, Firebird X is astonishingly quiet -Either coil in each of the three mini-humbuckers can be off, on or reverse polarity, and can be switched into single coil modes as well series and parallel - emulates iconic guitar tones with analog technology — not digital modeling just trying to help you out with your guitar buying decision.. Looks like this is exactly what you're looking for (and more) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.