Paddle cut

[Hogeye]

These are the photos of the paddle cut dovetail that was used in the early 90's

 

 

[j45nick]

Yikes! How do you do a neck re-set with THAT configuration? What were they thinking? When was this started/stopped, and was it used on all Gibson acoustics in that period?

[jdd707]

Yes more information please.

[retrorod]

Was that "Ren-approved"...

Details...please.

[J-1854Me]

I would guess that it was perhaps even Ren-designed.... but perhaps Hogeye will enlighten us further on this!?

 

Fred

[j45nick]

That appears to be a laminated maple neck, as well.

[pfox14]

I am guessing that's a J-200 neck. I've seen other ones with the same big paddle-cut dovetail. I don't understand why they would use this design, unless the paddle is just excess material used to hold the neck in a jig & and it gets cut off later in the process.

[jt]

yep, that's the infamous dovetail that Gibson/Montana used on acoustics in its early days, until around 1993. Neck resets are basically impossible because that paddle blocks the dovetail pocket and lies under the top.

[j45nick]

yep, that's the infamous dovetail that Gibson/Montana used on acoustics in its early days, until around 1993. Neck resets are basically impossible because that paddle blocks the dovetail pocket and lies under the top.

 

We really need to know when and on what models this was used, as it dramatically impacts on the desirability of those guitars long-term. I'd love to know what the thinking behind this was, as it's not usually the instability of the neck joint that causes the need for a re-set over time.

[jdd707]

yep, that's the infamous dovetail that Gibson/Montana used on acoustics in its early days, until around 1993. Neck resets are basically impossible because that paddle blocks the dovetail pocket and lies under the top.

 

 

Ummmm .... since I've got a dog in this fight, I agree with Nick .... do we know what models ect ................. detailed information? Where can we find it ..... or is it unknowable? Although I hope the 92 AJ and it's neck joint out lives me.

[jt]

We really need to know when and on what models this was used, as it dramatically impacts on the desirability of those guitars long-term. I'd love to know what the thinking behind this was, as it's not usually the instability of the neck joint that causes the need for a re-set over time.

 

Nick,

 

I don't know all of the details. The last chapter in the "Fabulous Flattops" book references the neck joint. The book quotes Ren for the proposition that Gibson instituted the joint to provide greater structural integrity to the neck/body area and then abandoned it for obvious reasons. My belief is that Gibson/Montana used that joint on all models from circa 1990 to circa 1993.

 

I'll check my Fab Flattops book this evening, though my recollection is that it didn't provide a lot of detailed info.

 

Perhaps someone from Gibson might comment.

[j45nick]

Nick,

 

I don't know all of the details. The last chapter in the "Fabulous Flattops" book references the neck joint. The book quotes Ren for the proposition that Gibson instituted the joint to provide greater structural integrity to the neck/body area and then abandoned it for obvious reasons. My belief is that Gibson/Montana used that joint on all models from circa 1990 to circa 1993.

 

I'll check my Fab Flattops book this evening, though my recollection is that it didn't provide a lot of detailed info.

 

Perhaps someone from Gibson might comment.

 

I just pulled out the "Bible". The "neck set" references are on pages 194-195. It says this joint was used from the mid-1970's until the spring of 1992, at which time Ren deemed it unnecessary!

 

This puts a whole new light on the problem, for sure.

 

EDIT:

Page 94 of "Fabulous Flat-Tops" has an excellent picture of the paddle-joint neck and the associated body recess. The paddle extension is not under the top, but fits into a cutout, with the top of the paddle flush to the surface of the top. There is a huge amount of gluing surface, and I can see how, as Hogeye says, this could result in a stiffer, more stable top. These guitars must have a huge neck block compared to the one for the conventional dovetail neck joint.

 

Not sure about the tone/volume implications of this arrangement, and I can see that the neck re-set would be more complex. Definitely not the neck joint design you want to encounter for your first attempt at a neck re-set.

[jt]

I just pulled out the "Bible". The "neck set" references are on pages 194-195. It says this joint was used from the mid-1970's until the spring of 1992, at which time Ren deemed it unnecessary!

 

This puts a whole new light on the problem, for sure.

 

Thanks, Nick!

[Hogeye]

Ummmm .... since I've got a dog in this fight, I agree with Nick .... do we know what models ect ................. detailed information? Where can we find it ..... or is it unknowable? Although I hope the 92 AJ and it's neck joint out lives me.

You are over reacting just a bit. First the neck is very stable and the paddle cut was designed to eliminate neck resets. The big problem that causes neck resets is when the top is de-humidified and the top sinks. This causes the bridge to drop and then the action can't be adjusted. The paddle cut kept the top from droping above the sound hole and eliminates all the problems that that can cause. It's actually a better mouse trap. I wish they still used it. If you look at the design you will see that the paddle actually cuts in and joins with the dovetail feature on the back of the neck. This makes it very easy to inject steam into the joint. Since there are very few problems with the neck it is very rare that the neck needs to be removed. If it is determined that the neck has to come off the paddle cut is just sawn thru and and the neck pops right off. When the neck is put back on the paddle can be reglued to the neck. No muss no fuss. I did say it took an experienced luthier to reset one of these necks.

 

The paddle cut was used on every Montana Gibson in the early 90's. I believe they stopped using it in 1992. I don't recall it being used in '93. If you have a guitar from that era you are a very lucky picker. The only reason it was taken out of production was because Gibson was beginning to sell and to increase production speed they decided to drop it. It takes more time to set the neck properly with the paddle so it was just a cost cutting and time cutting measure to increase production. At the time Gibson was not using the CNC machines and they used a ball carver to make the necks. If you look closely you can see that the joint at this state of productuon was a bit crude and needed a lot of hand work to get it clean. The neck is a J-200 neck and it is a three piece Maple laminate. The neck and heel are very rough and there was a lot of hand work that was needed to complete it and get it ready. The heel is very square as is the rest of the neck and they would be completed on a spindle sander by a guy. The quality of this work was inconsistant and the necks all felt different as there was no way to keep them uniform. It was sanded by hand.

 

I have three guitars with the paddle cut and they are outstanding. Everyone that plays them wants to buy them.

 

I know that Gibson could take a paddle cut neck off and replace it in less than 20 minutes. Just about the same time it takes to remove a bolt on Taylor neck. The point is don't be afraid of this feature. It was designed to do a specific job and it works very well.

 

This is the only neck I know of that is off a guitar from that era. If you ask anyone at Gibson today they will have no way to know what you are talking about. When Ren left the knowledge went with him. I believe that when the collectors are speaking in hushed tones about the Montana guitars they will be talking about this feature and they will highly value it for what it really is. A wonderful and inovative neck joint.

[j45nick]

See my edit to an earlier post above for more input on this.

[Del Nilppeznaf]

Fascinating

 

This is the kind of thread that keeps me on this forum. Thanks guys

[jt]

I just pulled out the "Bible". The "neck set" references are on pages 194-195. It says this joint was used from the mid-1970's until the spring of 1992, at which time Ren deemed it unnecessary!

 

This puts a whole new light on the problem, for sure.

 

EDIT:

Page 94 of "Fabulous Flat-Tops" has an excellent picture of the paddle-joint neck and the associated body recess. The paddle extension is not under the top, but fits into a cutout, with the top of the paddle flush to the surface of the top. There is a huge amount of gluing surface, and I can see how, as Hogeye says, this could result in a stiffer, more stable top. These guitars must have a huge neck block compared to the one for the conventional dovetail neck joint.

 

Not sure about the tone/volume implications of this arrangement, and I can see that the neck re-set would be more complex. Definitely not the neck joint design you want to encounter for your first attempt at a neck re-set.

 

Nick,

 

Thanks for the additional information!

[retrorod]

Yes, Thanks.This is 'ground-breaking' I am still digesting it, as I reply.

[jt]

Thansk, again, nick.

 

I'm now home with my copy of the book. As I wrote earlier, Gibson ceased using this joint for obvious reasons. From the book:

 

"This joint is extremely difficult to reset: first, the paddle eliminates easy access to the dovetail area with steam; also, because the paddle is a mortise-and-tenon joint in its own right, a second tight-fitting joint has to be loosened. Since the paddle is glued to the underside of the fretboard extension, heating and loosening the fretboard during reset is difficult.

 

Also, the paddle dovetail itself is only half the normal length. During a reset, the bottom of the heel, which isn't connected to the dovetail and consequently has no strength, may remain glued to the body while the rest of the neck comes loose."

 

You can see in the pic that Hogeye posted that the dovetail stops well short of the bottom of the heel.

[j45nick]

Thansk, again, nick.

 

I'm now home with my copy of the book. As I wrote earlier, Gibson ceased using this joint for obvious reasons. From the book:

 

"This joint is extremely difficult to reset: first, the paddle eliminates easy access to the dovetail area with steam; also, because the paddle is a mortise-and-tenon joint in its own right, a second tight-fitting joint has to be loosened. Since the paddle is glued to the underside of the fretboard extension, heating and loosening the fretboard during reset is difficult.

 

Also, the paddle dovetail itself is only half the normal length. During a reset, the bottom of the heel, which isn't connected to the dovetail and consequently has no strength, may remain glued to the body while the rest of the neck comes loose."

 

You can see in the pic that Hogeye posted that the dovetail stops well short of the bottom of the heel.

 

It does strike me as an overly-complex joint that may or may not accomplish its intended purpose. The fact that it apparently originated in the Norlin era set of alarm bells in my mind, as I don't particularly associate that with the high point of Gibson engineering history, even though I realize there are some very good guitars from that period.

[PickitPaul]

This is very interesting, I have a '91 AJ that has this paddle cut. So it was during the Norlin era that this first appeared, or was Ren involved with its design?

 

Here are some pictures. The neck block looks like every other Gibson, can't tell until you look up inside under the top, with a mirror.

I also just noticed while i was with the mirror, that the bridge has small bolts poking thru the maple bridge plate. I didn't think Gibson bolted down the bridge any longer? I have not seen this on any other bridge from Gibson in more recent years. Could be just this model & year.

 

 

 

[j45nick]

This is very interesting, I have a '91 AJ that has this paddle cut. So it was during the Norlin era that this first appeared, or was Ren involved with its design?

 

Here are some pictures. The neck block looks like every other Gibson, can't tell until you look up inside under the top, with a mirror.

I also just noticed while i was with the mirror, that the bridge has small bolts poking thru the maple bridge plate. I didn't think Gibson bolted down the bridge any longer? I have not seen this on any other bridge from Gibson in more recent years. Could be just this model & year.

 

 

I'm pretty sure Gibson has used small bolts on the bridge on most models for eons, and still does.

 

As far as the neck block goes, it looks like they've chamfered off the corners, perhaps as a way to reduce the mass a bit. It's hard to tell, but the block looks deeper (comes back further into the body) than on my conventional neck dovetail guitars.

 

According to "Fabulous Flat-Tops", the paddle joint originated in the mid 1970's. It was discontinued in late 1992, because Ren felt it was an unnecessary structural complication the made it far more difficult to re-set the neck in the future. As a luthier, Ren was/is always looking down the road, as he understands that these guitars are meant to last for decades, and that a neck re-set is likely to be in the cards at some point. This foresight is the same reason all Gibson necks (at least the acoustics--don't know about the electrics) are set with hide glue, which is reversible with the aid of steam.

[gearbasher]

As far as neck resets, the hole drilled into the top of the paddle looks like it is in the proper place to introduce steam. I wonder if that is its' purpose?

[Guth]

My first Gibson was a 1991 J-30. The guitar had nice tone, but it fell far short from the current Gibsons I own in the areas of responsiveness and volume. No telling if that had anything to do with the paddle configuration.

[Hogeye]

As far as neck resets, the hole drilled into the top of the paddle looks like it is in the proper place to introduce steam. I wonder if that is its' purpose?

The hole you are refering to is actually drilled into the neck at two locations. It is not intended to be used to inject steam. These holes have small pegs fitted into them and the pegs fit into holes drilled into the fretboard. Locators if you will. This keeps the fretboard from creeping when glued into place. There are many points along the production line that locators are used. This system eliminates as many human errors as possible. Locator holes are used to fit the top as well.