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Californiaman

Suspended without pay for the rest of the year.

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That's brutal what they're doing to Sean Payton.

I'd love to have a great discussion about this.

But, sadly I'm being censored. [cursing]

 

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Guest farnsbarns

That's brutal what they're doing to Sean Payton.

I'd love to have a great discussion about this.

But, sadly I'm being censored. [cursing]

 

This post will need approval from a moderator before this post is shown.

 

Missed something there then? Why are your posts being moderatedbefore going up?

 

Who is Sean Payton?

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I think all the Saints did was get caught. I would imagine the suspension is meant to set an example. I haven't read much about it, but I think if there's a cash pot paid out for injuries, something needs to be done about it

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I don't think the punishment was severe enough. We're talking about potentially ending people's careers here.

 

Saints should have to forfeit the Lombardi trophy which they won right in the middle of all this.

 

IMHO.

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Hockey's been doing this from the get go. Saw on a sports channel the other night a clip from a game between the Devils & Rangers I think, as soon as the opening puck dropped, three fights broke out. 40 mins of penatlies, tell me this wasn't planned. I agree the Saints just got caught. I don't condone it, but I would guess the majority of teams do this.

TC

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.

Playing hard, hitting hard, possibly injuries in the course of fair play - that's all part of the game.

 

Paying a bounty for injuries is a criminal activity and it would be no surprise to me if the law/feds investigated this twisted perversion of the game.

 

IMO those guys got what the deserved and they're lucky they didn't get worse.

 

As for hockey, it's ridiculous that there aren't more fines, and suspensions.

 

 

.

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Please stop equating fighting in hockey with this thug mentality in the NFL New Orleans where the intention is to end a career. If you don't follow hockey, you don't understand how fighting is a part of the sport. It's a release valve for this high contact sport and there are honor rules that are followed during fights. Even if you disagree with fighting, at least the players face each other and know what's coming as opposed to getting your legs cut out from under you by a linebacker and defensive linesmen.

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Saints were dumbasses to document a common - and ILLEGAL - bounty system, let alone document it so, so, so extensively. And all the while, SP continued to associate with the shady felon character who Goodell really, really frowns upon. Covering it up only made Goodell lose face, so he gave SP a little extra FU in the punishment.

 

SO, the NFL punished the Saints - but also made the Saints a scapegoat (in the truest Biblical sense) to play 'CYA' regarding the concussion lawsuits. It is a very heavy punishment indeed, due to the NFL's exploiting this golden PR opportunity regarding those lawsuits.

 

It's all about the NFL & Goodell saving face. "Player safety" rhetoric is legally-advised PR lip service. The bottom line is that the NFL is a business, and those lawsuits (and the public perception of them) are a very real threat to the NFL's profitability.

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Sean Payton and the rest of the Saints organization got everything they deserved. End of story. The blatantly broke the rules, then tried every plan in the book to cover it up.

 

Should've been worse IMHO. I wouldn't complain if the Saints franchise did not play for a entire season.

 

Professional football is BIG business. And just as much as the Saints tried to protect thier interests by covering up the truth, the NFL is at a reposnsibility and liability to catch such acts. It's business. And the NFL is FAR more important than one (almost failing) franchise.

 

Go Bears!

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There are a lot of great points being made here.

I can think back to some serious hits the Saints dished out.

A bounty is terrrible.

 

Even Teddy Roosevelt spoke about this type of thing when he gave a speach entitled "What does It Mean To Be An American Boy."

 

"Hit the line hard; don't foul and don't shirk, but hit the line hard!"

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Don't take this wrong, but after having been involved in some heavy contact sport myself, I think we have a real problem getting folks to play nice at such games.

 

The problem at "higher levels" of such sport - as perceived at least by the participants - is that mental intimidation through a degree of physical intimidation always has been part of the game.

 

The problem then arises in figuring at what point the gamesmanship no longer is allowed to be part of the game. And how does one truly and fairly apply the rules?

 

One thing I loved about SASS cowboy action shooting competition is that the "spirit of the game" is reason to disqualify someone. I think that is relatively easy to do because one has historic precedent as one guideline for equipment and a timed individual event versus other timed individuals rather than a face to face physical confrontation. In that sense, the sport is more like swimming or running events.

 

But American-style football, rugby and its variants, hockey, boxing, wrestling, etc., all depend to an extent on a mental game in which intimidation always has been a part.

 

That is, or at least should have been, considered in how this particular case is being decided. You simply cannot remove the mental factor - called intimidation - from the game or it no longer is the game. On the other hand, you have to determine at what point physical damage, or encouraging physical damage, to an opponent is not acceptable.

 

We may say, "the bounty was not acceptable," but then we listen to paying fans screaming, "Kill Him!" about the opposing team's quarterback when their team is on defense. I personally find that a horrid, horrid thing to say, or even to think - let alone to scream aloud.

 

Frankly I think I'm seeing even grade school level basketball reaching the point where physical intimidation and intentional physical fouls are encouraged by the state of the game. Is that good? Bad? Just the way the game is played nowadays? I dunno.

 

I personally don't care for the current "mixed martial arts" thing, but it's my observation that messy as it is, they haven't gone further into intimidation than one might see in a high school basketball game; and "real" martial arts rather than combat sports have plenty of damaging techniques these guys manage to keep out of their game - regardless of blood and bruises from elbows to the face.

 

I dunno. But I think this is one that folks should think about a bit.

 

m

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So I went to a boxing match and a hockey game broke out. Sorry, couldn't resist (an oldie but a goodie).

 

They have been cracking down on hits to the head a lot in hockey. Someday a player will get a career ending punch to the head and fighting will be band in hockey too. But I have never heard of a bounty from any coach to hurt a player in hockey, at least that I remember.

 

Williams was our head coach in Buffalo for a while. There are conflicting stories about it happening here. If our owner (Ralph Wilson) ever knew about it then you'd be sure that Williams would be fired the next day.

 

Around here, Marv Levy was the most liked coached ever. He was all about class. He was smart and well respected by his players. When Thurman Thomas scored his first touchdown he did a dance in the endzone. Levy congratulated him but told him to never celebrate again to make the point that he belonged in the endzone. Thurman never celebrated again. Now he and Levy are in the Hall of Fame.

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While I do think that they should NOT put a bounty on players, this is still old news. And, this guy is a scapegoat. Not saying he doesn't deserve a fine or some kind of punishment, but this has been done for years. Buddy Ryan, when he was a defensive coach did it routinly. He put a bounty on Joe Montana 4-5 times. Once in a championship game after Montana came to Kansas City it got into the news. There was an uproar, but they still took several cheap shots on Montana. He got knocked down, dazed a few times, but still shot their eyes out. ......I just think this guy is taking the brunt of it while numerous people are the doing the same thing. Pro sports are BIG money and if you can get the other team's best players sidelined, you're chances of making even bigger money improve.. It's not just coaches, it's players too.

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Well... they called the Saints' defense the "Ain'ts."

 

Consider the inherent violence in nicknames alone, and say there wasn't a perceived reward for those involved regardless of a "bounty" per se:

 

Giants defense at one point the "Big Blue Wrecking Crew." also "Crunch bunch."

The Eagles' Blitz Inc.

Blitzburg...

Doomsday Defense...

Fearsome Foursome...

Gang Green...

Killer Bees...

Monsters of the Backfield...

Orange Crush... (Included an acquaintance of mine, the late Lyle Alzado.)

Purple People Eaters...

Sack Pack...

 

m

 

Swat Team...

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Yeah I prefer something like our "French Connection" instead.

 

"French Connection (Sabres)

Rick Martin, Rene Robert, Gilbert Perreault

Named for the popular movie and their Gallic flavor, the potent offensive trio of left winger Martin, center Perreault, and right winger Robert skated as a unit from 1972 through `79 and led the Sabres to the 1975 Stanley Cup Final."

 

martin-robert-perreault.jpg

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Seven reason's William's and the players involved should be treated like criminals.

1. We are not talking about hockey, this is NFL football.

2. Since Buddy Ryan placed bounties on QB's, the practiced was banned.

3. William's knew he was breaking the rules, that is why he kept it secret.

4. Defensive players are payed well, there is no reason to place bonus's for injurying players.

5. Defensive players have been protected from intentional career ending hits. A O-line player can not hit a defensive player who is already engaged with another offensive player. Offensive players are not allowed to chop block defensive players, WR's, and TE's are not allowed to tackle defensive players who are attempting to intercept a pass until after the catch is made. (Just ask Hines Ward who has been booted from games for doing that)

6. If we are going to allow this, why not put a bounty on coaches or officials?

7. There is a good chance at least one QB suffered head injuries that may have caused brain trauma.

I remember the "good old days" when D-players would wear plaster casts on their arms and use them like clubs, I remember Deacon Jones and Big Hands Johnson taping coins onto their fingers and head slaping O-Linemen...That doesn't make it a good thing now..

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For anyone to conspire with their team members to try and inflict career ending injuries on opposing team members is reprehensible and anyone who partakes in this type of behaviour or any of the team hierarchy that endorses or condones it should be barred for life from any manner of sports because that is the most unsportsmanlike action anyone could be involved in.They should be brought up on criminal charges if at all possible.

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Bonzo...

 

The problem is that these guys are in a different world where both giving and receiving pain is the game, and something their mind not only allows, but embraces it.

 

So... other than proving a connection to additional cash for damaging someone, I think there's a difficulty in drawing a line between incidental damage and paid intentional damage in terms of what you see in a "sports event."

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not excusing it, just setting the scene. The adrenalin pumps, vision tunnels; gross muscle tissue becomes stronger and fine motor skills shrink. We're talking about guys who have incredible strength potential, are moving very, very fast and are armored in body, if not in mind.

 

It's also a fact that a lotta the old martial arts masters wanted nothing to do with competition and others schooled students for a brutal but hopefully non-lethal sport. Lines are very, very difficult to draw.

 

m

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i'm satisfied with the punishment. i'm into MMA, a different argument yes, but the same idea: this is sports and entertainment. live to fight/play another day and afford your opponent the same opportunity you had. shake hands after the match. it's just a *game*.

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I played football all through high school and college football and have competed in full contact fighting events but this is wrong and the ban should have been a complete ban forever from the NFL injuries occur no doubt it's a brutal blood sport in many ways but things like bounties should not be tolerated just like cheap shots should not be tolerated and if proven again a ban should be done permanently. I don't care what sport it is hockey, football, or even basketball if two menu square off and want to fight let them fight and ref's should stay out of it but taking cheap shot's on people for a cash bounty isn't sportsmanship and it should be career ending to allow or tolerate it.

 

Ive hurt people and been hurt on the football field but sportsmanship is required or it's just a gladiator sport, At least in full contact fighting sports you know what your facing and have accepted those risks but on a football field late hits and cheap shot's are not the norm and as I said before if subsidized by a coach or team it should be career ending. if the owners knew about it the saints should be sidelined for the season still required to pay all players and evn the people that work the games but they should not make a cent.

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I played football all through high school and football and have competed in full contact fighting events but this is wrong and the ban should have been a complete ban forever from the NFL injuries occur no doubt it's a brutal blood sport in many ways but things like bounties should not be tolerated just like cheap shots should not be tolerated and if proven again a ban should be done permanently. I don't care what sport it is hockey, football, or even basketball if two menu square off and want to fight let them fight and ref's should stay out of it but taking cheap shot's on people for a cash bounty isn't sportsmanship and it should be career ending to allow or tolerate it.

 

Ive hurt people and been hurt on the football field but sportsmanship is required or it's just a gladiator sport, At least in full contact fighting sports you know what your facing and have accepted those risks but on a football field late hits and cheap shot's are not the norm and as I said before if subsidized by a coach or team it should be career ending. if the owners knew about it the saints should be sidelined for the season still required to pay all players and evn the people that work the games but they should not make a cent.

 

this.

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Bonzo...

 

The problem is that these guys are in a different world where both giving and receiving pain is the game, and something their mind not only allows, but embraces it.

 

So... other than proving a connection to additional cash for damaging someone, I think there's a difficulty in drawing a line between incidental damage and paid intentional damage in terms of what you see in a "sports event."

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not excusing it, just setting the scene. The adrenalin pumps, vision tunnels; gross muscle tissue becomes stronger and fine motor skills shrink. We're talking about guys who have incredible strength potential, are moving very, very fast and are armored in body, if not in mind.

 

It's also a fact that a lotta the old martial arts masters wanted nothing to do with competition and others schooled students for a brutal but hopefully non-lethal sport. Lines are very, very difficult to draw.

 

m

 

 

Milod,

as always you bring great points to the topic.

There is indeed a difference between giving pain and receiving pain.

The bounty system that the Saints used should be illegal.

The team has been penalized. Sportsmanship went out the window so to speak and the result is where we are today.

I can only hope that other teams learn from this.

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