1960s Dating Question

[sportrdr41va]

I have a Gibson Les Paul Gold Top that has a serial number of 821xxx. It is a thin headstock and no vollute. According to the blue book and other web sources it is a 1966. When I got the guitar in 1980, it didn't have a "Les Paul" sticker on it but instead just a blank spot. Is the guitar really a 1966 and that is why there was no Les Paul sticker on it or is it a mistake in serial numbers? Seems as if there is a common thread that serial numbers in the 1960s were messed up. The pickups were changed to humbuckers before I got it. Any ideas on the date of this guitar?

[modoc_333]

there is no such thing as a '66 les paul. can you post us some pictures?

[Thundergod]

Are you sure it is a gibson? maybe someone put one of those gibson stickers on the headstock too... I'm just saying...

 

Some pics would help a lot.

 

Welcome to the forum BTW.

[sportrdr41va]

It is definitely a Gibson. It has a beautiful 3 piece neck and one piece body and nicely carved top. Has the original tuners and tuneomatic bridge. I'll post a picture later today after work. I got it at a very reputable store in about 1981. The pictures will show what looks exactly like the 68 Gold Top that came with P-90s when they were reissued routed for humbuckers. My theory on the guitar is that the serial number is just an anomaly (historians seem to suggest Gibson serial numbers were sometimes messed up in that era) or perhaps it was a prototype or one off made in 1966 and that is why it didn't have the Les Paul sticker.

 

Thanks for the welcome.

[bobv]

Please don't keep clinging to the 1966 idea, it's just not possible. The did not reintroduce Les Pauls until 1968 and then, as you point out, the goldtop had P90's. get some photos that show some details such as:

1. the absence of a volute on the back of the headstock - easily viewed from the side.

2. remove the neck pickup and see whether' it's got a long or short neck tenon and whether the cavity was recut for the humbucker or if it was original

3. take photos of the backs of the pickups; if the covers have been removed then make a note of the markings visible on the tops of the bobbins (which might not show up in a photo)

4. take photos of the wiring

5. see if you can make out the date codes on the pots

6. you might want to obscure part of the serial number on the headstock (it's a courtesy to help prevent fakes) but it's important to see if it's ink stamped or embossed into the wood or if there's a "made in USA" stamp back there.

7. if you can capture the detail, show the stampings on the underside of the bridge

8. see if there are any glue lines visible from inside the control cavity or the pickup routes - some years have a "pancake" sandwich of two slabs of mahogany separated by a thin layer of maple, not including the maple top

9. when you say "three-piece neck" are you referring to a one-piece neck with two small ears glued on at the headstock, or can you see two glue lines that run the length of the neck?

10. various changes have been made to the Gibson logo inlay on the headstock, but it's puzzling that the "Les Paul Model" decal would not be there.

11. does the binding in the cutaway follow the top and leave a gap of maple visible underneath, or is it a very wide shaped piece that stays in a straight line across the mahogany body?

 

I wouldn't be able to date the guitar for you; all I know is that there are time windows applicable to each of these features, and the members of this forum can certainly help pin it down.

 

Oh and pictures. we all like pictures.

[modoc_333]

i'm guessing a refin. at least the front of the headstock. also, that serial range can fit into 1973-1975.... this is sounding like it is the most likely. the lack of volute and made in USA usually suggests 68-70. we need to know how many pieces the neck really is though.

it's always possible that the volute was shaved (i've seen it done) and then the neck and headstock (or whole guitar) got a refin. the serial could be wrong, changed, an anomolly, or the OP is misreading it (easy to do when it's full of paint).

 

we really need pics..... good pics.

[sportrdr41va]

First off, thank you for the very detailed response. I will post pictures later today. The only reason I said it was a '66 is because the serial number which is 821xxx is listed in every book as 1966. It is most likely a serial number anomaly. On 3 of your points:

 

1. The neck definitely does not have a volute and the serial number is embossed in the wood. There is no made in USA. I have looked at a bunch of websites and I have this correct.

2-3. What is a tenon (sorry)? The pickups are definitely not original. They are seymour duncan that I had put on in 1983. It had dimarzio's when I got it. You can see where the pickguard was cut to switch from p-90s to the humbuckers and the same for the body, so it definitely came with P-90s when new.

 

I will post pictures of your other points later today. Thanks.

[modoc_333]

the tenon is the neck joint. pull the neck pup and take a pic of the cavity for us.

it's possible to fill/sand off the made in USA stanp during a refin. i have also seen some late 70s guitars that apparently just missed getting stamped.

you never answered the part about the neck. is it one big piece and then just the other 2 on the headstock as "wings" or can you see 3 pieces running the entire length of the neck?

also, remove the truss rod cover and take a pic of that cavity too.

[sportrdr41va]

Here are some pics. These don't cover everything requested but gives you a feel for the guitar. Thanks all for your interest and help.

 

[sportrdr41va]

One more thing and then I'll stop bothering you all. I put the yellow toggle on and the knobs too to make it look like a 57 back in 1983 or so at the same time I put the Les Paul sticker on. The luthier that put the sticker on told me at the time that the neck was original (i.e., not refinished). The original toggle was white and the knobs were same size all around (like a tire sort of).

[modoc_333]

your photos didn't post.

also, their may have not been a refin, but we need to see it anyway. if everything else is ok except for the finish, then it's a refin... perhaps just a really good one that the luthier couldn't pick out.

[sportrdr41va]

Trying again with the pics.

 

[modoc_333]

that guitar started it's life as a early/mid 1969 les paul deluxe... as best i can tell without having it in my hands.

can you read the codes off of the pots? they may have been changed at some point, but maybe not.

[sportrdr41va]

Thanks for the advice. It plays beautifully by the way and sounds great. Why do you say 69 as opposed to 68? You believe the serial number was just an anomaly? Thanks again.

[modoc_333]

hard to tell with the serial numbers. that guide you see about gibson serial numbers is as wrong as it is right in regard to those years. basically, it's the features of the guitar you have to use to date it...... the logo, 3 piece neck, one piece body, no volute, the bridge, etc, etc, etc.