stein Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 It's historical significance aside, it's value as an actual guitar that you would take out and use, I think the pickups are worth more than the whole thing. But that's just me. rct I'm curious why you say the pups are worth more. They would LIKELY be great sounding pups, but they CAN be replicated. Gold covered original PAF pups are the most expensive and sought after of all, but the only reason they actually go for such high dollar amounts is because they are often needed to restore an expensive/priceless guitar. If it were not for such high prices for vintage 'original' guitars, the pups would not be priced so high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 I'm curious why you say the pups are worth more. They would LIKELY be great sounding pups, but they CAN be replicated. Gold covered original PAF pups are the most expensive and sought after of all, but the only reason they actually go for such high dollar amounts is because they are often needed to restore an expensive/priceless guitar. If it were not for such high prices for vintage 'original' guitars, the pups would not be priced so high. My recollection of the few pairs of PAFs I've actually used is of THAT sound. We all know what it is, it's why we have a mahogany bodied maple topped humbuckered guitar not made by Fender. THAT sound. Can't explain it, it was what a Les Paul is. I have 57 Classics in them these days, and they are sure close enough. PAFs are wonderful, they sound wonderful in even a mediocre guitar. I just would rather have the pickups than the V is all. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 My recollection of the few pairs of PAFs I've actually used is of THAT sound. We all know what it is, it's why we have a mahogany bodied maple topped humbuckered guitar not made by Fender. THAT sound. Can't explain it, it was what a Les Paul is. I have 57 Classics in them these days, and they are sure close enough. PAFs are wonderful, they sound wonderful in even a mediocre guitar. I just would rather have the pickups than the V is all. rct I know what you are talking about. I have been lucky enough to have played a few as well. There IS something to them, to say the least. Not everyone has, so a lot of it is word of mouth and assuming they sound great. I make some assumptions as well-I haven't played a lot of them to compare differences, and haven't played enough humbuckers in general to be able to say which ones are as good, or even differences between different vintage ones (PAF, PATEND# DECAL, etc.), or played enough 'boutique' PAF style to know which ones are better than others. I HAVE owned and swapped enough Strat pups to know that there are 'vintage' ones that sound truly great, and I know what THAT is. And also, that there are makers who DO replicate those and even make them better in a lot of cases. I ASSUME that is true with PAF style, but I don't actually know from personal experience. I have played some GREAT sounding aftermarket/modern PAF style pups though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mosquito3 Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 The reason is not "because it was brilliantly ahead of it's time." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 I couldn't disagree more about the magic of the original PAF pickup. PAF pickups were inconsistent. So inconsistent in fact that it's better to think of "PAF" as a proses more than a pickup. They were widgets being stamped out by line workers getting paid by the unit randomly snatching Alnico 2,3,4,5 grade magnets, some 2.25" long, some 2.5" long, without any idea what they were and winding bobbins on winders with inaccurate counters and willy nilly tension systems. Most of them are very average sounding. "Good" being a very subjective term, most of them don't sound as good as a 57 Classic. But the inherent inconsistencies of the process led to a few having coils mismatched just so and combined with just the right grade magnet for that combination of coils. These were truly great sounding pickups and pickup makers have been saying they know the exact formula ever since. PAFs don't command stupid prices because they are any good. They command stupid prices because of the dogma of "Mojo". They are getting to be rare though so now the Patent Number pickups are starting to have "Mojo" which is understandable since the only difference between a 1960 PAF and a 1962 Patent Number pickup is the sticker on the bottom and the color of the hook up wire. In the end, saying any random "PAF" pickup sounds good enough to be worth $2500 is a lot like saying that any random 58 Flying V sounds so good it's worth $500,000. However, If you're willing to pay $2500 for a PAF then that's what it's worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riffster Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 Yea, it is funny how a '59 les paul is the holy grail while another guitar with the same humbuckers made in the same factory do not have as much mojo...or at least don't command the same price. Even the color matters, a '57 les paul with PAFs does not command the same money as a burst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WahKeen Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 So is that how you get Sl00sh tone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 SEARCY: Good post. I would plus ya but I am plum out. I might add that I perceive the "value" or going rate of PAF pups to be more out of a need or use to restore a vintage instrument, rather than for the actual tone or quality. I don't know who is buying them or what they are ACTUALLY selling them for, but I can see them being worth 2500 from a parts dealer for restoring, say, a '60 ES-335 or a Les Paul that is missing them. I don't know who would pay that for the 'tone'. It is GOOD to hear from someone with actually experience. I believe the only way to really know and be able to have a real opinion is to be able to compare, or swap, pups to be able to quantify or hear differences. I can't say I do because I haven't with Humbuckers. It could be, that MY experiences with them (limited) and my impressions are the result that throughout the 80's and 90's, nearly ALL humbuckers that a guy like me would try or play would have VERY likely been 'overwound' at least to some degree. In that case, I think an original PAF would likely sound the best to MY ears, and stand out in my memory. That could be the 'mojo' right there. Another thing though, I have a theory I can't prove, but I believe. From my days as an 'audiophile', I have learned that a conductor SOUNDS better after it has had a certain amount of electricity running through it. It isn't a myth...I have tried and compared and listened to many components, cables, and the like that after about 40 hrs or so of playing time from newly built, the sound opens up and is much better. It is true in nearly every case, but not always. If you can imagine, listening to Pre recorded music on a familiar stereo makes it a lot easier to hear and determine if something is clearly better, different, or both. An instrument has other factors. It takes longer and more work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damian Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 Someday my MIM Strat will be worth $500,000.00 Pesos........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brundaddy Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 IDGAF who Ronnie Montrose was. A second-rate footnote in the rock and roll history books. I'd rate this specimen on face value only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlashPerryBurst Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 IDGAF who Ronnie Montrose was. A second-rate footnote in the rock and roll history books. So what does that make you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brundaddy Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 A zero. A nobody. Which is why it would be only slightly more ridiculous to use my name as a selling point on an original Flying V as it is to push a Ronnie Montrose angle. The seller is clearly trying to make a big, fat selling point out of it. "See this huge ding in this otherwise gorgeous original Flying V? *Ronnie Montrose* put it there. While opening for Journey!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlashPerryBurst Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 "See this huge ding in this otherwise gorgeous original Flying V? *Ronnie Montrose* put it there. While opening for Journey!" It's a nice little bit of history. As you can guess from my username, I'm a huge fan of the 59 tobacco burst owned by both Joe Perry and Slash. Slash was thrilled when he bought it as he had a poster of Joe playing the guitar when growing up. The guitar has a very recognisable "ding" under one of the knobs. A big fan of Ronnie may cherish this guitar as it has a bit of history. Still don't think it's worth that much though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This_Dying_Soul Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 I wouldn't pay $500,000. I think the guy might be able to get $100,000 for it's rarity... and that's being generous. Maybe a bit more if the seller was a big Montrose fan. I get how some people would not be that into the V because they are not exactly easy to sit down with, but they do have a nice sound to them in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LT ED Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 Whilst on the subject of Ronnie Montrose just read on the classic rock website that he took his own life due to depression[ shot him self] ,not natural causes as first stated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 It could be, that MY experiences with them (limited) and my impressions are the result that throughout the 80's and 90's, nearly ALL humbuckers that a guy like me would try or play would have VERY likely been 'overwound' at least to some degree. In that case, I think an original PAF would likely sound the best to MY ears, and stand out in my memory. That could be the 'mojo' right there. That might be it right there. I think you could be right. Another thing though, I have a theory I can't prove, but I believe. From my days as an 'audiophile', I have learned that a conductor SOUNDS better after it has had a certain amount of electricity running through it. It isn't a myth...I have tried and compared and listened to many components, cables, and the like that after about 40 hrs or so of playing time from newly built, the sound opens up and is much better. It is true in nearly every case, but not always. Well, I'll let you guess what my opinion is on that one but if this is true you should be able to discharge a few 9V batteries through your pickup winding and hear a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveinspain Posted April 11, 2012 Author Share Posted April 11, 2012 Whilst on the subject of Ronnie Montrose just read on the classic rock website that he took his own life due to depression[ shot him self] ,not natural causes as first stated. Read what Rolling Stone says.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 I couldn't disagree more about the magic of the original PAF pickup. PAF pickups were inconsistent. So inconsistent in fact that it's better to think of "PAF" as a proses more than a pickup. They were widgets being stamped out by line workers getting paid by the unit randomly snatching Alnico 2,3,4,5 grade magnets, some 2.25" long, some 2.5" long, without any idea what they were and winding bobbins on winders with inaccurate counters and willy nilly tension systems. Most of them are very average sounding. "Good" being a very subjective term, most of them don't sound as good as a 57 Classic. But the inherent inconsistencies of the process led to a few having coils mismatched just so and combined with just the right grade magnet for that combination of coils. These were truly great sounding pickups and pickup makers have been saying they know the exact formula ever since. I agree. And I agree that Fender did the very same, their "magic" wasn't actually Abigail or George or TGomez, it was random parts put together in a nearly haphazard fashion resulting in Happy Accidents. I did write "my recollection". It is distant, now way distant memory, I haven't actually picked up a vintage Les Paul in a very very long time, I wouldn't give anyone the money they want for one for a truckload of them. PAFs don't command stupid prices because they are any good. They command stupid prices because of the dogma of "Mojo". They are getting to be rare though so now the Patent Number pickups are starting to have "Mojo" which is understandable since the only difference between a 1960 PAF and a 1962 Patent Number pickup is the sticker on the bottom and the color of the hook up wire. I agree with all of this. In the end, saying any random "PAF" pickup sounds good enough to be worth $2500 is a lot like saying that any random 58 Flying V sounds so good it's worth $500,000. However, If you're willing to pay $2500 for a PAF then that's what it's worth. Speaking for myself, I put no price on them, because I wouldn't buy them anyway. I prefer the current, well, what, 15 years now? 57 Classics. Longer than that. Anyway, my words "pickups worth more than the whole guitar" were an exaggeration mostly regarding the whole stupid vintage thing. It's a guitar, prolly a crappy one, but a beautiful one at the same time. I should also put "my recollection" of PAFs in context. In the glorious black and white 33 and 1/3rpm days, we only had whatever Gibson was putting in their guitars and Dimarzeros. Yes, we called them Dimarzeros. If anyone remembers, aftermarket stuff that was any good was pretty hard to find in them days. There weren't 17 makers all claiming to have Teds original homebrew winder and Les Pauls' screwdriver. So I'm pretty sure that the beauty of most of the PAFs I ever tried had a bit to do with their surroundings. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky4 Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 From a Flying V fan site. Go to the gallery and look up 57,58, and 59 section. http://www.flying-v.ch/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dem00n Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 I'll take one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveinspain Posted April 11, 2012 Author Share Posted April 11, 2012 I don't see any pricing there but there are some very nice Vs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brundaddy Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 It's a nice little bit of history. As you can guess from my username, I'm a huge fan of the 59 tobacco burst owned by both Joe Perry and Slash. Slash was thrilled when he bought it as he had a poster of Joe playing the guitar when growing up. The guitar has a very recognisable "ding" under one of the knobs. A big fan of Ronnie may cherish this guitar as it has a bit of history. Still don't think it's worth that much though. That's all I was trying to say. The tobacco burst specimen you refer to was maimed by proper stars who could legitimately add mystique, at least, unlike this original (!) and otherwise fairly sharp korina Flying V up for auction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rainbowdemon427 Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 I wish people advertising on ebay would check their spelling and grammar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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