Vintage Tone - standard caps or other??

[glennc]

Purchased a Les Paul Traditional and the 57 & 57+ to my ear, don't have the rich mellow tones I expected. It is wired in the vintage style with tiny caps. Is the changing to some sprague or PIO caps going to make a noticeable difference. All opinions welcome, not meant to start any contention and I have no experience, just reading about it. Thanks for any assistance!

Glenn

[Gary Moore Tribute]

Fit £36 USA Bumble Bee's and you'll get what your after I also have a Traditional and did the below:

 

[vexorgtr]

Usually "Vintage Tone" is just as much a function of the amp... What ya got there?

[glennc]

Fit £36 USA Bumble Bee's and you'll get what your after I also have a Traditional and did the below:

 

 

Thank you for your response and the experienced information. Am considering and there seem to be many types, you like the bumble bees. Who makes them, is that the brand name?

Glenn

[glennc]

Usually "Vintage Tone" is just as much a function of the amp... What ya got there?

 

Hello,

Yes that would be a function. I am running it through a Fender Blues Jr. Amp. Since this is the first real Les Paul I've had, this is my first experience. On a 335 with 57's it sound great!?!!?? Thank for your response!

Glenn

[Gary Moore Tribute]

Thank you for your response and the experienced information. Am considering and there seem to be many types, you like the bumble bees. Who makes them, is that the brand name?

For that vintage tone most people go for these (I have "Orange Drops" in one guitar but its not the same...)

Heres a link to a UK seller http://guitar-xperience.com/onlinestore/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=660&category_id=205&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=38&vmcchk=1&Itemid=38

 

Your amp as a Blues JR is a good vintage sounding amp but designed more for brighter single coil sounds

So going for a valve Blackstar or Marshall would be a good move

[glennc]

For that vintage tone most people go for these (I have "Orange Drops" in one guitar but its not the same...)

Heres a link to a UK seller http://guitar-xperience.com/onlinestore/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=660&category_id=205&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=38&vmcchk=1&Itemid=38

 

Your amp as a Blues JR is a good vintage sounding amp but designed more for brighter single coil sounds

So going for a valve Blackstar or Marshall would be a good move

 

Thanks again,

So these are really russian PIO caps made to replicate the look of the bumble bees? In regards to the amp, it is all I got and although I may one day mod it, I can't afford another amp, but I see your point. I appreciate your time and help. Now I have to find a pound to Dollar calculator {:-))!

Glenn

[GuitarBuilder]

The caps will make a difference, but it's not dramatic. Your mileage may vary depending on your hearing and imagination. The amp is a much larger factor; the Fender will not be nearly as mellow as a Marshall.

 

Compared to an ES-344, the Les Paul will sound somewhat brighter - is that what you're referring to?

[Danner]

Tantalum capacitors were state of the art in the 1950's. They were the best technology to transition from vacuum tubes to transistor as well. That's kind of a neat benchmark.

 

Here's an interesting read:

 

History

[stein]

Changing the caps from one "type" to another (Pio, ceramic, orange drop, etc) will not change the tonality or the balance, but may change the QUALITY of the tone.

 

So, if you change caps from one .022 to another of the same value, it will still be just as bright, or just as dark. If you want to change the brightness or darken it up, you can 1)change the value of the caps. or 2) change the value of the pots.

 

A rough generalization is that ceramics caps enhance some of the sizzles to the highs, or the 'resonanance'. Pio caps can supports lows, or the 'punchyness' of a guitar that has them, and orange drops/polyester can have a little more clarity. BUT THESE ARE SUBTLE DIFFERENCES!

 

In my personal experience, it only makes a difference you can tell easily when done in combination of rewiring or when using certain pups. Simply changing caps from a ceramic to a "bumblebee" won't change much.

 

I might expect an LP to sound brighter than a 335, but not always. It is certainly possible to have a dark sounding LP that is not as bright as a 335. But mostly, they are 2 individual guitars that obviously sound different. Besides that, it would be helpful to know if the values of the caps and/or pots on the two guitars are different or the same.

 

Also, it might be worthwhile to use the knobs on the LP to achieve different "tones". There is NOT a higher quality of sound when you turn the knobs all the way up, as some believe. If you find you really like the sound of the guitar with the tone rolled back a bit, you may not want to change anything.

 

If you DO want to change it, if you let us know WHAT you want to change it to, that would be helpful. If you want to change it to be more like your beloved 335, it would be helpful to know what is in that guitar as far as well.

[stein]

For that vintage tone most people go for these (I have "Orange Drops" in one guitar but its not the same...)

Heres a link to a UK seller http://guitar-xperience.com/onlinestore/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=660&category_id=205&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=38&vmcchk=1&Itemid=38

 

Your amp as a Blues JR is a good vintage sounding amp but designed more for brighter single coil sounds

So going for a valve Blackstar or Marshall would be a good move

It's been a while, but PLEASE refrain from posting mis-information.

 

When you invent things or post things that just aren't true, OR misrepresent your experience it makes it HARDER for those looking for answers and advice on the forum have a harder time in the end.

[Gary Moore Tribute]

Yes MUM

[pippy]

...In my personal experience, it only makes a difference you can tell easily when done in combination of rewiring or when using certain pups. Simply changing caps from a ceramic to a "bumblebee" won't change much.

Hmmm..........

 

I greatly respect your knowledge, opinions and experience, stein, but for the very first time I find myself in partial disagreement with something you have written.

 

I changed a set of ceramics for a pair of the Russian 'Luxe'-branded repro PIO Bumblebees and it made a drastic improvement on the resultant tone. It may be that the particular model of p-ups fitted - a matched pair of S-D Antiquities - is one of the 'certain pups' to which you refer in the quote above, but I can assure you the perceived change was neither slight nor was it imagined.

 

In fact beforehand I had been considering selling the guitar, so unimpressed was I with its tone, but after the swap it instantly became my #2 favourite guitar, so great was the improvement.

 

Unfortunately I don't have 'Before and After' sound clips. I was, myself, extremely sceptical that there would be a pronounced change and therefore didn't think there would be any point in recording such, but I was very wrong.

 

R9 has, in the past, mentioned that this type of capacitor swap works for some guitars and not for others. He's probably right.

 

P.

[glennc]

The caps will make a difference, but it's not dramatic. Your mileage may vary depending on your hearing and imagination. The amp is a much larger factor; the Fender will not be nearly as mellow as a Marshall.

 

Compared to an ES-344, the Les Paul will sound somewhat brighter - is that what you're referring to?

 

Hello GuitarBuilder,

Yes the Paul sound much less mellow and dreamy. I have been further investigating and have read that when the tone pots are at 10, where I usually keep them, they are effectively out of the circuit. So basically it wouldn't matter what caps I had in it. But last night I was experimenting and found that when used, the tone controls work, but sound IMO like they are dull. Is this possible or is it just my perception. The 57's that I like are in the 335 at 10 and I had a ES-175 on 10 usually. They sounded extremely different. Thanks for responding.

Glenn

[glennc]

Tantalum capacitors were state of the art in the 1950's. They were the best technology to transition from vacuum tubes to transistor as well. That's kind of a neat benchmark.

 

Here's an interesting read:

 

History

 

Hello Danner, the times they are a changing! Thanks for the history!

Glenn

[glennc]

Changing the caps from one "type" to another (Pio, ceramic, orange drop, etc) will not change the tonality or the balance, but may change the QUALITY of the tone.

 

So, if you change caps from one .022 to another of the same value, it will still be just as bright, or just as dark. If you want to change the brightness or darken it up, you can 1)change the value of the caps. or 2) change the value of the pots.

 

A rough generalization is that ceramics caps enhance some of the sizzles to the highs, or the 'resonanance'. Pio caps can supports lows, or the 'punchyness' of a guitar that has them, and orange drops/polyester can have a little more clarity. BUT THESE ARE SUBTLE DIFFERENCES!

 

In my personal experience, it only makes a difference you can tell easily when done in combination of rewiring or when using certain pups. Simply changing caps from a ceramic to a "bumblebee" won't change much.

 

I might expect an LP to sound brighter than a 335, but not always. It is certainly possible to have a dark sounding LP that is not as bright as a 335. But mostly, they are 2 individual guitars that obviously sound different. Besides that, it would be helpful to know if the values of the caps and/or pots on the two guitars are different or the same.

 

Also, it might be worthwhile to use the knobs on the LP to achieve different "tones". There is NOT a higher quality of sound when you turn the knobs all the way up, as some believe. If you find you really like the sound of the guitar with the tone rolled back a bit, you may not want to change anything.

 

If you DO want to change it, if you let us know WHAT you want to change it to, that would be helpful. If you want to change it to be more like your beloved 335, it would be helpful to know what is in that guitar as far as well.

 

Hello Stein,

That was an interesting and clear explanation. Thanks of course. Since I usually and I mean 99% of the time leave the guitar knobs at ten, the difference between the two style guitars must be the construction. Same amp, 335 mellow, can sound jazzy, but will crank up fine. The LP is powerful and to me very trebly. I intially had to get the 57+ bridge pickup lowered as it was too high and the treble would come through using both pickups. This has helped. The other guitars had dual 57 Classics. I believe I have learned that I am really not using the tone caps the way I play usually. Great information from the members, thanks!

Glenn

[johnnyraff]

I dropped some orange caps in my sg they sound great, there is only a slight difference in tonality. My recomendation is just start playing your guitar and it will get better with time.

I have 3 gibsons with different configuratons, i found the orange caps are just as good as any other.

[glennc]

I dropped some orange caps in my sg they sound great, there is only a slight difference in tonality. My recomendation is just start playing your guitar and it will get better with time.

I have 3 gibsons with different configuratons, i found the orange caps are just as good as any other.

 

Hello and thanks! Sound advice. Ultimately playing better will make a better sounding guitar {:-))!

Glenn

[stein]

Hmmm..........

 

I greatly respect your knowledge, opinions and experience, stein, but for the very first time I find myself in partial disagreement with something you have written.

 

I changed a set of ceramics for a pair of the Russian 'Luxe'-branded repro PIO Bumblebees and it made a drastic improvement on the resultant tone. It may be that the particular model of p-ups fitted - a matched pair of S-D Antiquities - is one of the 'certain pups' to which you refer in the quote above, but I can assure you the perceived change was neither slight nor was it imagined.

 

In fact beforehand I had been considering selling the guitar, so unimpressed was I with its tone, but after the swap it instantly became my #2 favourite guitar, so great was the improvement.

 

Unfortunately I don't have 'Before and After' sound clips. I was, myself, extremely sceptical that there would be a pronounced change and therefore didn't think there would be any point in recording such, but I was very wrong.

 

R9 has, in the past, mentioned that this type of capacitor swap works for some guitars and not for others. He's probably right.

 

P.

Thanks for the compliment...I would say the same of you.

 

I don't think we disagree at all, or at least I agree with you. I don't know if I was making myself very clear...I was attempting to put it into a perspective. Describing sound, or changes, is difficult at times.

 

I think there are no real sure rules, but I try and UNDERSTAND why some things sound better than others, and when that occurs. I think that for Gibson types, the wires and caps make as much difference as good pickups, but with Strats, wire doesn't matter so much.

 

From my somewhat limited experiments with Gibsons, I found when the coax wire is used as opposed to the thin copper harness type, combined with PIO caps makes a big difference. The caps by them selves not nearly as much. Perhaps the times it makes more difference has to do with which wire the guitar is wired with?

[stein]

Hello GuitarBuilder,

Yes the Paul sound much less mellow and dreamy. I have been further investigating and have read that when the tone pots are at 10, where I usually keep them, they are effectively out of the circuit. So basically it wouldn't matter what caps I had in it. But last night I was experimenting and found that when used, the tone controls work, but sound IMO like they are dull. Is this possible or is it just my perception. The 57's that I like are in the 335 at 10 and I had a ES-175 on 10 usually. They sounded extremely different. Thanks for responding.

Glenn

I have read this as well, but it isn't true. The caps and the pots are ALWAYS in the circuit, regardless of being on 10 or 4. So, you are always hearing them.

 

The Pots provide resistance to ground. On "0", it is a short, so you get no sound. Turn a 500k pot to "10" and you get 500k resistance to ground. That is why a 500k pot with twice the resistance of a 250k pot is louder and brighter. So...if it is turned down a little, you might have 400k resistance, or 350k, depending on where you turn the knob. The full "ON" means nothing more than the stopping point at the end of the travel. It is always part of the circuit in equal amounts, regardless of where you turn the knob.

 

Bear with me...I'm confused today.

 

The CAP is always in the circuit. You always hear it, regardless of where you have the knob set.

 

Anyway, the reason I go into all this, is because if you can get the idea out of your head that "full on" is "wide open", you can better evaluate and decide how you want to wire or configure your wiring, or what changes might be helpful. You may be able to better decide if the wiring is what you want when the knobs are full up, OR if the usable sounds when you USE the knobs work the way you want.

[btoth76]

Hello Glennc! I have the very same problem with my Classic Custom. After a discussion with good people here and some research I came to this conclusion. The Luxe Repro Bumblebees have General Instruments PIOs inside. A good alternative to them for the fraction of price is: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Russian-PIO-Capacitor-K40Y-9-0-022uF-22nF-1000V-1pc-or-more-/380367968474?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item588fb298da. Although I am getting the Jensens which are known to be the best PIOs on the market, used mostly in high-end equipment. Regards... Bence

[glennc]

I have read this as well, but it isn't true. The caps and the pots are ALWAYS in the circuit, regardless of being on 10 or 4. So, you are always hearing them.

 

The Pots provide resistance to ground. On "0", it is a short, so you get no sound. Turn a 500k pot to "10" and you get 500k resistance to ground. That is why a 500k pot with twice the resistance of a 250k pot is louder and brighter. So...if it is turned down a little, you might have 400k resistance, or 350k, depending on where you turn the knob. The full "ON" means nothing more than the stopping point at the end of the travel. It is always part of the circuit in equal amounts, regardless of where you turn the knob.

 

Bear with me...I'm confused today.

 

The CAP is always in the circuit. You always hear it, regardless of where you have the knob set.

 

Anyway, the reason I go into all this, is because if you can get the idea out of your head that "full on" is "wide open", you can better evaluate and decide how you want to wire or configure your wiring, or what changes might be helpful. You may be able to better decide if the wiring is what you want when the knobs are full up, OR if the usable sounds when you USE the knobs work the way you want.

 

Hello Stein,

The part about the caps being out of the circuit threw me. I am glad to get some contradictory opinion on it. My ears have been my gauge. In the past, I just set the guitar to 10 and adjusted the amp. But after buying a FAT pedal and playing with it and the guitar, I found a much larger range of sounds than I have been used too. This is partially due to your initial response. I've found that if I turn the bridge p/u and turn down the tone on both Bridge and Neck pickup, I can get close to the sound I am used to from 57s. More experimentation will surely refine this. So thanks for your pov. I have found that with this LP the Fender Blues Jr. does sound less than great. Something I've never noticed before. Adjusting it has given me a larger range of sound, but there something doesn't sound right. Might be ghost or perceptions..... I do believe it was made for fender single coil guitars and tuned that way. Thanks you for your experience viewpoint and help!

Glenn

[glennc]

Hello Glennc! I have the very same problem with my Classic Custom. After a discussion with good people here and some research I came to this conclusion. The Luxe Repro Bumblebees have General Instruments PIOs inside. A good alternative to them for the fraction of price is: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Russian-PIO-Capacitor-K40Y-9-0-022uF-22nF-1000V-1pc-or-more-/380367968474?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item588fb298da. Although I am getting the Jensens which are known to be the best PIOs on the market, used mostly in high-end equipment. Regards... Bence

 

Howdy Btoth,

Thanks for the information. Funny, I've read that the Luxe Repros had the Russian PIO's in them {:-)! What a price difference!!!!!! So you like the Jensens? Can you be more specific on the specs or part number. Still investigating.

Appreciate you time and good luck getting the sound you want!

Glenn

[btoth76]

Howdy Btoth,

Thanks for the information. Funny, I've read that the Luxe Repros had the Russian PIO's in them {:-)! What a price difference!!!!!! So you like the Jensens? Can you be more specific on the specs or part number. Still investigating.

Appreciate you time and good luck getting the sound you want!

Glenn

 

Hello Glenn! Please check this out regarding the Luxe Bumblebees: http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/tonefreaks/109840-uncloaking-repro-caps-luxe-gibson.html. As far as Jensens are concerned, please check this site: https://audio.jensencapacitors.com/products/capalutube/sn-aglead/. A pair of them delivered to middle-Europe is 32 USD, which is fair compared to Bumblebees. There are five US dealerships! I've ordered the 0.022 micro-Farad versions. Regards... Bence

[glennc]

Hello Glenn! Please check this out regarding the Luxe Bumblebees: http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/tonefreaks/109840-uncloaking-repro-caps-luxe-gibson.html. As far as Jensens are concerned, please check this site: https://audio.jensencapacitors.com/products/capalutube/sn-aglead/. A pair of them delivered to middle-Europe is 32 USD, which is fair compared to Bumblebees. There are five US dealerships! I've ordered the 0.022 micro-Farad versions. Regards... Bence

 

Hello Bence,

Thanks again for your time and help. Strange, as it was on that forum I read that they were Russian. Maybe they upgraded? In any case I don't know if I want to spend that much money.... I believe the Jensens are quality capacitors but I am a bit concerned about their tolerances. -10/+20 from a non technical standpoint seem a bit large. I've read of 10% +/- caps. What is you opinion on the tolerance, knowing you purchased them?

Glenn