btoth76 Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 Hello Glenn! Unlike my father, I am not skilled at electronics at all. It was His suggestion to go with this brand He knows well and trusts. As He said, He only saw Jensen components when worked on the most expensive TVs and audio equipment. Sorry, wish I could've given You a more technical reason on my decision. It was purely a trust in my father's experience. Cheers... Bence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glennc Posted May 2, 2012 Author Share Posted May 2, 2012 Hello Glenn! Unlike my father, I am not skilled at electronics at all. It was His suggestion to go with this brand He knows well and trusts. As He said, He only saw Jensen components when worked on the most expensive TVs and audio equipment. Sorry, wish I could've given You a more technical reason on my decision. It was purely a trust in my father's experience. Cheers... Bence Thanks Bence, Wow, I been searching and have found them from $138 each to newly made in Denmark Jensen for $20.00 each. Way out there. Of course the $20 ones are out of stock..... Oh well! Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btoth76 Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 Ouch! That's not cheap! I just noticed that I have sent You a wrong link. This is the one: https://audio.jensencapacitors.com/products/capalutube/alu-aglead/. Item 140937. Sorry! Cheers... Bence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glennc Posted May 2, 2012 Author Share Posted May 2, 2012 Ouch! That's not cheap! I just noticed that I have sent You a wrong link. This is the one: https://audio.jensencapacitors.com/products/capalutube/alu-aglead/. Item 140937. Sorry! Cheers... Bence Hey Bence, there is a company called Angela Capacitors that have the Jensen one I mentioned marked with the Angela Logo in addition to Jensen and the aluminum ones are $17.99 each but they are even wider in tolerance -10/+30. You've been a help Dude! Thanks Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 Changing the caps from one "type" to another (Pio, ceramic, orange drop, etc) will not change the tonality or the balance, but may change the QUALITY of the tone. +1 Just to add a little bit more about caps I think stein hits the nail squarely with this observation. Caps of similar value will do exactly the same thing in a technical sense but the resulting tonal characteristics might differ as an end result. Using an analogy, I tried to explain my thoughts on the subject a while ago and the gist of it was this; Two different brands of cameras with the same focal length aimed at the same subject from the same position will record the same image but if one camera is a high-end DSLR and the other is a poorly made budget-price compact the results will differ in their inherent QUALITY. A ceramic cap might have the exact same function as a PIO yet the ensuing results might differ markedly. But I'm No Expert ! ! ! ! ! ! P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 My long experience with guitars, and that length of time in no way indicates accuracy, has been that a guitar player looking to have eye popping changes to tone, having their guitar FINALLY awesome sounding, knowing beyond doubt that THIS is the uber schweet vintage caramel-y tones I've been dreamin of, never finds it in a handful of way overpriced caps. If you are chasing sounds that far down? You need a new guitar, or you need to stop obsessing, because it is my experience that nobody can hear that. Except you. And you are telling yourself what you hear. It's a little extreme, I know. But putting a fine point on it like Mr. Stein has is in fact doable, and it may be that the perceived "quality" will be "better". But turn yer amp up in a bar and lay into Bad Moon Rising or turn up yer amp and lay into your latest opus in the studio and believe me, nobody can hear yer 135 dollar caps. Nobody. That is just my experience, and I'm trying to say to newish er players to take such things with a grain of salt. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 That is just my experience, and I'm trying to say to newish er players to take such things with a grain of salt. What can I say, rct? I comlpetely agree that individuals should take things with a very great pinch of salt. I certainly do - far more than most people, I expect. I don't believe in at least 99.999% of the utter shite trotted out regarding 'Chasing Tone' as I hope you know by now. But swapping the caps (BTW, they cost me £10 ($15) from a friend who had them 'surplus to requirements') DID make a substantial difference in the case of my '95 '1960 Classic'. That's really all I can say. If there are enough doubters I might be persuaded to swap the old ceramics back in to prove it.......... P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glennc Posted May 2, 2012 Author Share Posted May 2, 2012 +1 Just to add a little bit more about caps I think stein hits the nail squarely with this observation. Caps of similar value will do exactly the same thing in a technical sense but the resulting tonal characteristics might differ as an end result. Using an analogy, I tried to explain my thoughts on the subject a while ago and the gist of it was this; Two different brands of cameras with the same focal length aimed at the same subject from the same position will record the same image but if one camera is a high-end DSLR and the other is a poorly made budget-price compact the results will differ in their inherent QUALITY. A ceramic cap might have the exact same function as a PIO yet the ensuing results might differ markedly. But I'm No Expert ! ! ! ! ! ! P. Hello Pippy, Thanks for your time and explanation. Your analogy, I like. Although that is more quantitative and discernible. The cap things seems like magic that is based on opinion which of course is a great variable. I do believe I am going to some PIO's out, not going to spend excessive amounts nor do I care necessarily if they look authentic. Just have the ES-337 57 sound in my head and can't get it with the LP and the 57 and 57+. If I had more experience with amplifiers and tech stuff, I could probably do it. I read a lot of threads where officionados discuss what was called cork-sniffing. I am surely not that refined. Take Care! Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glennc Posted May 2, 2012 Author Share Posted May 2, 2012 My long experience with guitars, and that length of time in no way indicates accuracy, has been that a guitar player looking to have eye popping changes to tone, having their guitar FINALLY awesome sounding, knowing beyond doubt that THIS is the uber schweet vintage caramel-y tones I've been dreamin of, never finds it in a handful of way overpriced caps. If you are chasing sounds that far down? You need a new guitar, or you need to stop obsessing, because it is my experience that nobody can hear that. Except you. And you are telling yourself what you hear. It's a little extreme, I know. But putting a fine point on it like Mr. Stein has is in fact doable, and it may be that the perceived "quality" will be "better". But turn yer amp up in a bar and lay into Bad Moon Rising or turn up yer amp and lay into your latest opus in the studio and believe me, nobody can hear yer 135 dollar caps. Nobody. That is just my experience, and I'm trying to say to newish er players to take such things with a grain of salt. rct Howdy rct, I follow your line of thought and experienced opinion. I am certainly not going to spend that kind of money. I am looking in the $20 each range. Maybe a better amp or soundproofing so my neighbors don't mind me cranking it up a bit.... Thanks for your time! Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glennc Posted May 2, 2012 Author Share Posted May 2, 2012 What can I say, rct? I comlpetely agree that individuals should take things with a very great pinch of salt. I certainly do - far more than most people, I expect. I don't believe in at least 99.999% of the utter shite trotted out regarding 'Chasing Tone' as I hope you know by now. But swapping the caps (BTW, they cost me £10 ($15) from a friend who had them 'surplus to requirements') DID make a substantial difference in the case of my '95 '1960 Classic'. That's really all I can say. If there are enough doubters I might be persuaded to swap the old ceramics back in to prove it.......... P. Hey again!! Might I ask what specific caps you used in your 95 LP. I am circling around and not sure which way to go! Thanks for any info! Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btoth76 Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 Hey Bence, there is a company called Angela Capacitors that have the Jensen one I mentioned marked with the Angela Logo in addition to Jensen and the aluminum ones are $17.99 each but they are even wider in tolerance -10/+30. You've been a help Dude! Thanks Glenn Hello Glenn! You are welcome! "Angela" is kind of rebadging of a Jensen cap. (Like Ford and Mercury :)). There are Jensen caps under other brandnames as well: RS Guitars for example. Cheers... Bence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 It's Humble Pie time for me - and I don't mean the band! I've just double-checked what I THOUGHT I knew to be the facts and discovered that I had missed something important! The caps I swapped in to the LP were a pair of Luxe PIO 'Grey Tigers' which have the values .02mfd. / 400v. (this is identical to Bumblebees : GT's were commonly used from '52-'56 and 'Bees from '56-'61). The ceramics' only markings are 20 3M which, it turns out (having Googled the code), represent a cap with the values .02mfd. / 250v. NOT 400v. made by the 3M company. This now makes more sense to me. As I stated in an earlier post I was sceptical that swapping like-for-like would make any difference and, as it transpires, I DIDN'T swap like-for-like at all! Sorry for the confusion my lack of attention to detail caused and apologies especially to stein and rct. Anyhow, FWIW...... Here are a couple of links; one is to the site showing the caps I bought along with 'Bumblebees' and 'Woman Tone' versions - all at $46 per pair. They can only be bought on-line. The second is from someone who bought some bits for his Strat but he goes into some detail about how much attention the Luxe company puts into their products which is of some interest. http://retrospec-gui...ufacturers_id=7 http://artbarsnstrip...nt-company.html Philip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btoth76 Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 Hello Pippy! As I said earlier I do not know anything about electronics. What struck me is that mentioned, that the former caps were rated at 250 Volts, while the replacements are at 400 Volts. Does the Volt-rating is important factor at all? Pickups produce around 200 milli-Volts... Cheers... Bence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glennc Posted May 3, 2012 Author Share Posted May 3, 2012 Hello Glenn! You are welcome! "Angela" is kind of rebadging of a Jensen cap. (Like Ford and Mercury :)). There are Jensen caps under other brandnames as well: RS Guitars for example. Cheers... Bence Cool, that is what I was hoping for. Thanks Bence! Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glennc Posted May 3, 2012 Author Share Posted May 3, 2012 Hello Philip, Thanks for the clarification and the sites to purchase acceptably priced bumblebees. I was attempting to find the tolerances for the caps. Will reread it is early hear and the coffee hasn't kicked in. I've noticed that some sights/people suggest the .015 and a .022 micro farad caps. Others just go with the .022's. You went with the .02 so I see your choice, did you have any specific reasoning? May I ask what sort of amp you play through. As previously mentioned I am not 100% happy with my Fender Blues Jr. I mean it is great and all for the price, but..... Again I appreciate you help! Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 It's Humble Pie time for me - and I don't mean the band! I've just double-checked what I THOUGHT I knew to be the facts and discovered that I had missed something important! The caps I swapped in to the LP were a pair of Luxe PIO 'Grey Tigers' which have the values .02mfd. / 400v. (this is identical to Bumblebees : GT's were commonly used from '52-'56 and 'Bees from '56-'61). The ceramics' only markings are 20 3M which, it turns out (having Googled the code), represent a cap with the values .02mfd. / 250v. NOT 400v. made by the 3M company. This now makes more sense to me. As I stated in an earlier post I was sceptical that swapping like-for-like would make any difference and, as it transpires, I DIDN'T swap like-for-like at all! Sorry for the confusion my lack of attention to detail caused and apologies especially to stein and rct. Anyhow, FWIW...... Here are a couple of links; one is to the site showing the caps I bought along with 'Bumblebees' and 'Woman Tone' versions - all at $46 per pair. They can only be bought on-line. The second is from someone who bought some bits for his Strat but he goes into some detail about how much attention the Luxe company puts into their products which is of some interest. http://retrospec-gui...ufacturers_id=7 http://artbarsnstrip...nt-company.html Philip. Well...Im not so sure they are really 'different'. There has been debate about the voltage rating making a difference. technically, it shouldn't from an electrical point, and 250v FAR exceeds the need in a guitar anyway. In addition to that, PIO caps are more for higher voltage applications, and Cermaics are more for low voltage applications. If you did have a 400 volt ceramic, it would be pretty big. If, for a LOW voltage application we were going for the most similar as far as the size if the electrical components, (the conductors and the gap), the voltage rating is not going to be the same anyway. So perhaps 250v ceramic is closer to 400v PIO? My memory of values is unreliable at this point, so don't go by what I say. I was thinking the typical Gibson value was .047, but apparently it is .022 (.02). I was also thing the voltage rating for a vintage strat/tele was 50 and 100 volts for the cap. Anyway, the voltage rating is not supposed to have an effect on the frequencies effected. It doesn't in that regard. But, caps of the same value are not SUPPOSED to sound different, but they do, or can. But comparing the same voltage rating between caps is not really accurate, as they have different ratings as a result of the different materiels, as much as size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 Hello Philip, Thanks for the clarification and the sites to purchase acceptably priced bumblebees. I was attempting to find the tolerances for the caps. Will reread it is early hear and the coffee hasn't kicked in. I've noticed that some sights/people suggest the .015 and a .022 micro farad caps. Others just go with the .022's. You went with the .02 so I see your choice, did you have any specific reasoning? May I ask what sort of amp you play through. As previously mentioned I am not 100% happy with my Fender Blues Jr. I mean it is great and all for the price, but..... Again I appreciate you help! Glenn .02 and .022 are actually the same spec. Same as .05 is the same as .047. It means that is what the aim for in the manufacturing, and then there is a tolerance rating (such as =/- 10%, etc). While you are at it, consider getting some wire. If your Gibson is not wired with the braided wire throughout, you might rewire it at the same time. The .015 caps that some people like to get are to make it 'brighter' than stock, and usually for the neck pup...not what you seem to be after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glennc Posted May 3, 2012 Author Share Posted May 3, 2012 .02 and .022 are actually the same spec. Same as .05 is the same as .047. It means that is what the aim for in the manufacturing, and then there is a tolerance rating (such as =/- 10%, etc). While you are at it, consider getting some wire. If your Gibson is not wired with the braided wire throughout, you might rewire it at the same time. The .015 caps that some people like to get are to make it 'brighter' than stock, and usually for the neck pup...not what you seem to be after. Hello stein, I am currently in flux although leaning toward the lux bumblebees that Pippy pointed out. You are correct, I am not looking for the bright tone, got it! Technically .02 isn't the same as .022, but for the actual use the difference may be irrelevant. I am looking for the tolerance ratings, I've read original Gibson BB were 20%. I consider that excessive, again it may not be relevant in this application but I was looking at jensens that were -10/+20 %. I'd like to get closer to 10% or better +/-, probably not possible with PIO caps? Also, now that I think of it, will the .022uF be the right choice for a Gibson 57 Classic + pickup due to it's higher output? I dun't know. Thanks again for your information and time! Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 Hello Philip, Thanks for the clarification and the sites to purchase acceptably priced bumblebees. I was attempting to find the tolerances for the caps. Will reread it is early hear and the coffee hasn't kicked in. I've noticed that some sights/people suggest the .015 and a .022 micro farad caps. Others just go with the .022's. You went with the .02 so I see your choice, did you have any specific reasoning? May I ask what sort of amp you play through. As previously mentioned I am not 100% happy with my Fender Blues Jr. I mean it is great and all for the price, but..... Again I appreciate you help! Glenn Hi Glenn. Good luck with the coffee : I've had about 3 pints of tea this morning so I'm feeling fine! My 'choice' of the .02/.022s was simply because a friend had them going spare (in the end didn't need them as his tech fitted a second pair into his LP in their place). He knew I was unhappy with the amplified tone of what should have been a very fine-sounding instrument and suggested I spent the requisite 10 mins soldering them in 'just in case' they improved things - which they did. As far as my amp is concerned; I play through a circa '78 Music Man 2x12 'Sixty-Five'. As you probably already know, M-M was a company set up by Leo Fender a decade after he sold his eponymous company to CBS. The 2x12 was, in effect, an updated version of the 'Twin Reverb' model. It's a hybrid design with a S/S pre-amp section and a valve (tube) power-amp. In theory (and in practice) the S/S gives a very clean signal whilst the valves allow for pretty much any degree of natural O/D the player could desire. A very knowledgeable friend has studied the wiring schematics and, apparently, there are no fewer than four O/D circuits which work in a very clever fashion. They will (if required) give full 'artificial' O/D at low volumes but the influence these circuits have on the end-tone decreases as the volume is increased and natural valve O/D takes over. If I can find a sound-clip I'll stick one on later... Philip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glennc Posted May 3, 2012 Author Share Posted May 3, 2012 HowdyPhilip, Neat info. The specs sound great on the amp, sure wouldn't mind a clip to actually hear the sound if you can!!! I may eventually upgrade or mod my amp for a better sound, but being a amateur, I don't really need a lot. Thanks mate! Going for my third caffeine induction!! Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 Hello stein, I am currently in flux although leaning toward the lux bumblebees that Pippy pointed out. You are correct, I am not looking for the bright tone, got it! Technically .02 isn't the same as .022, but for the actual use the difference may be irrelevant. I am looking for the tolerance ratings, I've read original Gibson BB were 20%. I consider that excessive, again it may not be relevant in this application but I was looking at jensens that were -10/+20 %. I'd like to get closer to 10% or better +/-, probably not possible with PIO caps? Also, now that I think of it, will the .022uF be the right choice for a Gibson 57 Classic + pickup due to it's higher output? I dun't know. Thanks again for your information and time! Glenn a .022 cap with a tolerance of +/- 20% literally means .02-.024, (I think..if my math is correct). Anyway, it is pretty close. The tolerance is NOT the same as quality, although, higher tolerance caps are often made to a higher quality. The point is, they have standard values in electronics...that is why a .023 cap doesn't exist. .02 and .022 are considered the same, just for some reason they decide not to add the extra number. (if you NEEDED a specific number such as .023, or .o225, you would be expected to measure them and use the one that has the number you need...not applicable here). Don't worry about finding the tolerance value, because you are after 'authentic' vintage tone if you are going PIO. The tolerance values you are likely to find are well within the pups' tolerance anyway. I'd bet you pots don't measure 500k either. (the ones I have measured have been from 350-525k). Personally, when I DON'T know exactly what I want or what to expect, I go for "vintage" spec as close as I can get it for a starting point. The idea being that they most likely got it right the first time when they decided on the spec when they first designed it, AND it gives me a good reference point for discussion with others, and a good basis to make changes FROM if I want. The other thing you COULD do if you wanted is to look at what is in your other guitar (if you can), as you know you like that one, and it may reveal something different between the 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 Hi Glenn. Unfortunately I can't find one of the LP I'm talking about in the post but FWIW, here are three clips with the M-M amp. They were all recorded purely to show a friend on another forum how the amp sounds - nothing more serious - hence my lack of concern with all the 'fluffs'....lol!. Clip 1; This was recorded to show how two identically-spec'd instruments (a '93 1959 re-issue and a '95 1960 re-issue; both fitted with a pair of '57 Classics, 'Bees and 500k pots), set to the same levels can yet sound slightly different. Clip 2; This is merely a longer version of the second part of the first clip with the R0 so you can hear the sound of the thing for even longer if you so desire!...... Clip 3; My mate had expressed an interest in hearing how the O/D sounded at low volume when the Hi / Low switch was set to 'Hi' hence my spoken intro to show the volume was at normal speech level. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5xeimLkDY0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvSOqiJjOoE Philip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glennc Posted May 3, 2012 Author Share Posted May 3, 2012 Hello stein, I follow you completely. The ES-335 is a semi-hollow body so that probably has a lot to do with it also. I also found that my amp will not play below loud with full tonal quality IMHO. I contacted RS and talked to a tech, who was very helpful. I wanted a more mellow, warm sound and surprisingly he said the bumblebee caps would not cure but accentuate the brightness. He suggested I go with the Jensen caps .015 for the neck and .022 for the bridge. He also stated that the stock volume and tone pots were a sound problem and suggested there superpots to replace the stocks. The Jensens are only like $40. I do have the 300K volume pots as opposed to the vintage 500Ks. So I might just try the pots out and see/hear if it makes a noticeable difference. I was taken aback about not using the grey tigers or the bumblebees..... Ah well. Thanks again! Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glennc Posted May 3, 2012 Author Share Posted May 3, 2012 Hello and thanks Philip, Nothing like hearing to tell. Personally I like the 59 reissue, but they seem to me to be pretty close. Undiscerning ear maybe. Now what I really need to do is to learn to play like that {:-)! Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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