ES-330 Questions???????

[Notes_Norton]

1) I have an old Gibson ES-330. It says "Made in USA" on the back, which makes me believe it was made in 1970. However, another person told me the color was discontinued in the late 60s (if anyone can help with that I'd appreciate it).

 

2) It has the "long neck" (joins at the 19th fret) and I have heard they are worth less as collectors items than the "short neck" models. I really like the "long neck" better than the "short neck" Casino, so I wonder why that is?

 

Here is a picture, next to my Epiphone Casino (the one I take on gigs).

 

 

Notes

[Notes_Norton]

Doesn't anyone have a guess as to why:

 

1) "Long neck" ES-330s are worth less than the "Short Neck" variety? (I still think they are better)

 

2) When the dark "tobacco" color finish was discontinued?

 

3) Where I can get answers to these questions? (Gibson can't help)

 

(I'm responding to my own post to keep the post alive for a while)

 

Thanks.

 

Notes

[retrorod]

Hey Bob! I would think the longneck vs shortneck thing would be an individual preference. Technicaly....maybe the short neck gives the neck a little more stability and tone transfer, since more of the neck is attached to the body?

Gibsons, in general, from the 70's are less 'revered' than those from the 50's and early 60's. My reference material does not,however, show any difference in value between the short and long neck versions ine late 60/ early 70 period. Value stated at $3,000 or so.

Also, it looks like the walnut finish was an option in the late 60's. I think they were available in S/burst, cherry and natural and also a sparkling burgundy color....Yum! The darker tobacco- burst usually went out in the early 60's when they started to add the cherry to the burst.

Yours appears to be a walnut finish. Gorgeous pair of guitars!! Does your guitar have the volute on the neck? That is typically a '70 feature as well as the made in USA.

Hope this helps...RRoD

[L5Larry]

2) It has the "long neck" (joins at the 19th fret) and I have heard they are worth less as collectors items than the "short neck" models. I really like the "long neck" better than the "short neck" Casino' date=' so I wonder why that is?[/quote']

 

Value of any older instrument is determined by demand. Age in itself has nothing to do with the value of an instrument, there has to be a demand for it, nor does original selling price. Demand is determined by the history of the piece, what famous players may have owned or played one, and also by the "standard" configuration and specs.

 

There is no great demand by collectors or players for the 330, not to say they arn't great guitars, they have been long over shadowed by the 335. The only "famous" 330 player that I can think of was jazz guitarist Grant Green, and unless your a jazzhead, you wouldn't even know that. So that brings us down to standard configuration and specifications. The 330 was known for the short neck, and is generally thought of that way. That is also the configuration in which the greatest numbers of them were built. A change from standard specs of any instrument, regardless of the fact that it might have been a upgrade in features and price, will never hold the same value as the standard issue.

 

For example, a 50's sunburst LP Standard, is worth more than a Gold Top or Custom, both of which cost more to buy new. An LP with a Bigsby is worth less than one without. A vintage 335 is always worth more than a 345 or 355, both of which were upgrades, in both features, quality and price of the same basic instrument. A 50's Strat in sunburst holds more value than a custom color, which cost more at the time.

 

This is just the way of the market.

[Notes_Norton]

Hey Bob! I would think the longneck vs shortneck thing would be an individual preference. Technicaly....maybe the short neck gives the neck a little more stability and tone transfer' date=' since more of the neck is attached to the body? [/quote']

 

Perhaps, but as an acoustic guitar, the Gibson sounds better than that Epiphone. Of course they are made of different woods, have a different wood finish, and the Gibson has plastic/nylon (?) saddles on the bridge.

 

Gibsons' date=' in general, from the 70's are less 'revered' than those from the 50's and early 60's. My reference material does not,however, show any difference in value between the short and long neck versions ine late 60/ early 70 period. Value stated at $3,000 or so. [/quote']

 

That's reassuring :-)

 

I have been watching eBay and the short neck versions seem to go for up to $5k and the longer necks a little less.

 

Also' date=' it looks like the walnut finish was an option in the late 60's. [/quote']

 

I was told it was tobacco by another guitarist (UN-qualified opinion)

 

Gorgeous pair of guitars!!

 

Thanks.

 

Does your guitar have the volute on the neck? That is typically a '70 feature as well as the made in USA.

 

Yes it does (I had to look up the word volute - thanks for increasing my vocabulary)

 

That helps. The reference Gibson referred me to indicated that it was probably either a '69 or a '70 by the serial number, the Made In USA meant probably '70, but the "Tobacco" finish meant 60s. Now that I know that the finish is Walnut, I can with some confidence figure it is a 1970 model.

 

I love both guitars.

 

I've doubled on guitars for years, mostly rhythm (bar and other movable chords) and bass. When I decided to get serious about playing lead in my duo, I didn't like my Kramer/Focus/Faux-Strat and didn't want to take the Gibson on stage since it has become a collector's item (I spent $300 on it a loooong time ago). Especially since I play sax, flute, wind synth, guitar and percussion on stage -- I didn't want to ding up a $3K guitar. So I bought the Casino to bring on stage since it was the closest thing I could find to my 330. I'm very happy with the Epiphone, and although I rarely, if ever, need it, I would like for the Epi to have the longer neck (in case I ever get good enough to want it <grin>).

 

Notes

[Notes_Norton]

Value of any older instrument is determined by demand. Age in itself has nothing to do with the value of a instrument' date=' there has to be a demand for it, no does original selling price. Demand is determined by the history of the piece, what famous players may have owned or played one, and also by the "standard" configuration and specs. <...big snip...>

This is just the way of the market.[/quote']

 

I understand that. My old Selmer Mark VI sax (I wish I hadn't traded it in) has become sort of a "Holy Grail" of saxophones, even though my H. Couf sounds better. The King Super 20 Silversonic from the same era, doesn't fare as well for collectors even though it is actually a better horn (IMHO) and has a sterling silver neck and bell (which does great things for the tone of the sax).

 

I'm not interested in selling the Gibson, but was simply curious about it. Like the Mark VI, the Gibson is worth 10x what I paid for it (but I traded the Mark VI in for a Mark VII which didn't become a collectors item, and I traded that in for the H. Couf which sounds better than both Selmers but is wearing out so now I play a Grassi).

 

Thanks for the info.

 

Notes

[retrorod]

"Value of any older instrument is determined by demand. Age in itself has nothing to do with the value of a instrument, there has to be a demand for it, no does original selling price. Demand is determined by the history of the piece, what famous players may have owned or played one, and also by the "standard" configuration and specs"

 

Hi L5Larry, I feel that you underestimate (or choose to ignore).... the correlation between age and value of a vintage piece! How would you explain the values of Strats and Teles that rise to the stratosphere from present day models to the originating years in the 50's? The 'Golden Era' of Gibson....Lloyd Loar Era.....Norlin Era....All related to age....And value.....be it high or low....and THEN driven and determined by demand!

I just don,t understand how you can say...Age in itself has NOTHING to do with the value of a(n) instrument...RRod

[L5Larry]

Hi L5Larry' date=' I feel that you underestimate (or choose to ignore).... the correlation between age and value of a vintage piece! How would you explain the values of Strats and Teles that rise to the stratosphere from present day models to the originating years in the 50's? The 'Golden Era' of Gibson....Lloyd Loar Era.....Norlin Era....All related to age....And value.....be it high or low....and THEN driven and determined by demand!

I just don,t understand how you can say...Age in itself has NOTHING to do with the value of a(n) instrument...RRod

[/quote']

 

Let me present this scenario, I think this will make it pretty clear.

 

I was manufactured during the same years as the heyday of the most sought after Gibson guitars, the Eisenhower administration. I was made from good stock by a respected midwest couple that put everything they had into my design, creation and developement. I am in vintage condition, although well used, with only a few minor scrapes and dings, in original condition (including tonsils, appendix, teeth and MOST of my hair). My ex-wife thinks I'm a worthless piece of s**t. My new wife thinks I'm the greatest thing that ever walked the earth (OK, that's a SLIGHT exageration).

 

I'm still the same person I always was, the only difference is who wants me, and who doesn't. OK, which am I?

 

No need to get personal here, I'm just trying to make a point.

[Notes_Norton]

IMHO there is DEFINITELY a correlation between both age and desirability and it is in some weird, undefinable way.

 

Almost anything that is either very popular or famously unpopular is bound to be a collector's item if you keep it long enough.

 

Take the '57 Chevrolet and the '58 Edsel. The '57 Chevy was an extremely popular car and the '58 Edsel a famous flop. Both are worth a lot of money in the collector's market.

 

The aforementioned Selmer Mark VI saxophone from the late 50s are worth much more than the older and newer Selmer saxophones. While the VI is a fine sax, it isn't much better than the Balanced Action that came before it, IMHO not quite as good as the King Super 20 Silversonic produced in the same era, and as old horns with moving parts that do wear out, not as good as many new saxophones. Is it because the Mark VII that followed the VI was inferior that made the VI the collector's item it is today (much like the pre-CBS Fenders)???

 

Who knows.

 

I had a Mickey Mouse watch when I was a kid. I broke the mainspring. I wish I still had it.

 

Perhaps that for some reason, if something is designated by enough people to be a collector's item, it just catches on and the word of mouth does as much or more than the intrinsic value of the item itself.

 

BTW, my former wife didn't think very much of me, and my present wife thinks I'm the greatest (that's her in the picture below).

 

So I am going to take care of my ES and only bring the Casino on stage in the hopes that someday it will pay for my retirement ;-)

 

Notes

[retrorod]

L5Larry...

Bad anology....You might have the same DNA...But I doubt seriously that you are same person now as you were then... I am mid-50's and on my second marriage also and I am definitely not the same as I was in my 20's. Thats not the point, and I don't want to get into a pissing match over a non-issue! I think I will agree to dis-agree wid' ya!

As far as Gibson's go....I like 'em old,vintage....clean and mean!

 

" Notes"....I wish I had my Mickey Mouse watch too! I think we all can agree that our first wives sucked.....and I wish my wife had a set of legs like your present one in the picture.....You lucky man...Ha!

[Notes_Norton]

<...>

" Notes"....I wish I had my Mickey Mouse watch too! I think we all can agree that our first wives sucked.....and I wish my wife had a set of legs like your present one in the picture.....You lucky man...Ha!

 

I am a very lucky man. Leilani is my best friend, a great singer, a good musician, and she looks good, too!!! Now if she was only rich ;-)

 

I married the first wife for all the wrong reasons, and found out what I didn't want in a mate. Second time around all I tried to do was (1) find somebody in the entertainment business and (2) avoid the things I didn't like in the first marriage. Well, I got much more than I expected -- I did get lucky.

 

The first wife was like my first guitar. A learning instrument :-O

 

So now I play music with my very best friend, and at the end of the night they pay me money and say "Thanks for a lovely evening", and I go home with my lover. I don't think it gets much better than that!!!!

 

Notes

[dougg330]

Notes, it looks like you got the year of manufacture sorted out (1970), and you certainly got what you were looking for with your second wife :)

As to why the long neck 330's aren't as valuable as their shorter-necked brethren... I have 3 thoughts:

1. I've heard speculation from some collectors & dealers that the neck joints are weaker - the longer necks aren't anchored as well, etc. Don't know if it's true.

2. They come from a period that was considered less desirable (post 1966)... the Norlin era.

3. Neither 1 & 2 matters if it sounds and plays right. Plus, it seems like periods that weren't highly valued creep higher every year. I remember when people said '70's Fenders weren't worth a dime, and now the prices are sky high. Same thing is happening already to 330's like yours.

Be well and play well -

Doug

[JimR56]

A 50's Strat in sunburst holds more value than a custom color, which cost more at the time.

 

This is just the way of the market.

Wow!! L5Larry, who is a very active member here, does know a lot about guitars. On occasion, though, he says things that really damage his credibility. I've seen him make claims that vintage Gibson archtops are worth more in a sunburst finish than in blonde (natural), which is false. The above statement concerning the value of sunburst Strats vs custom colors is (and was in 2008, when he said it) absolutely insane, to anybody who knows anything about the vintage guitar market.

 

-----

 

dougg330, I concur with your three thoughts.

[lp7631010]

really?

[JimR56]

really?

Really, what?

[stein]

If I read correctly, age IN ITSELF is not the determining factor, but desirability. Example: a 1960 Gibson L-7C is worth about the same as a Norlin era 1974 Les Paul Deluxe.

 

Regarding the guitar in question, the point here is that while a long neck ES-330 may SEEM more desirable, and may even be a better instrument, there is not the same demand for it BECAUSE of it's uniqueness. People are usually seeking either a 335 OR a vintage casino (or the Gibson equivalent the 330), and usually do not want to compromise what EITHER have to offer.

 

I think I agree with what the book says in this case: I think the long neck and the normal version are the same value. If anything, I think the difference may be that the earlier 60's that were NOT available in the long neck are more valuable than the years than the years when the long neck was available.

 

Really though, regarding the Fenders, GENUINE custom colors from the pre-CBS are FAR more valuable than the sunburst. 50's especially. The reason is that colors became the norm, and we tend to view a Fender in something besides sunburst as just the way it is, but for a 50's or 60's guitar, it just wasn't popular. A color other than sunburst from the 60's is actually not too common, and is RARE in a 50's Fender.

[stein]

Odd...this thread seemed to disappear for a bit.

[JimR56]

If I read correctly, age IN ITSELF is not the determining factor, but desirability. Example: a 1960 Gibson L-7C is worth about the same as a Norlin era 1974 Les Paul Deluxe.

Well, obviously age is not the ONLY factor. But your example is odd. You have to at least compare the same model if you're going to talk about what determines relative values.

 

Regarding the guitar in question, the point here is that while a long neck ES-330 may SEEM more desirable, and may even be a better instrument, there is not the same demand for it BECAUSE of it's uniqueness.

The average person wouldn't have any idea that there were two different neck designs on vintage 330's. I think someone who is looking for a vintage 330 probably wants one (if they can find one at the right price) from the pre-Norlin era, simply based on the reputation of the older guitars being of higher quality.

 

People are usually seeking either a 335 OR a vintage casino (or the Gibson equivalent the 330), and usually do not want to compromise what EITHER have to offer.

A 335 is not an "equivalent" of a 330, so again, that point is moot here. A vintage Casino would be a good comparison.

 

I think I agree with what the book says in this case: I think the long neck and the normal version are the same value.

If you're talking about examples that are almost the same vintage, then that may be true.

 

If anything, I think the difference may be that the earlier 60's that were NOT available in the long neck are more valuable than the years than the years when the long neck was available.

Obviously.

 

Really though, regarding the Fenders, GENUINE custom colors from the pre-CBS are FAR more valuable than the sunburst.

Again, that's a no-brainer.

[Jerry-ES330]

I have a 1967 Gibson ES330TD with sunburst finish , mahagony neck and back with rosewood fretboard with mother of pearl blocks (instead of dots). The top is (I think) Maple. The pickups are nickel plated P90 single coil (blues) pickups and from what I've read they are a popular and sought after pickup if vintage ones can be found. Mine has a trapeze tailpiece and Klausen (attempting to spell this correctly) tuners, all original. I read the same as above about how the longer necks caused more problems and became a weak part of the guitar. I also believe I read that they can sometimes bring more money than the short necks, simply because they made fewer of them (even though the neck was less reliable). Mine is the shortneck (actually it just joins the body at a different fret) and I have learned to live with it. I've heard rythmn players actually prefer these but I tend to play more lead (blues). I paid $250 back in the early 80's and now it's worth many times more. It is in absolutely pristine condition. The casinos are comparable but they used less expensive wood. My ES330 seems to sound better as the wood ages and as years go by and I wouldn't think of selling it. The ES335 is a totally different animal because instead of being fully hollow body, they have a solid piece of wood running right through the middle, top to bottom. They are joined at the neck at a higher point (more access to upper frets) and they generally have humbucker pickups , so you get a completely different sound than the ES330. The ES330 is much lighter and at first glance may even seem fragile, but I have found over the years that this guitar is much tougher and more durable than it's weight would make you think. The P90s are super hot and can really scream with the right AMP and effects. I play mine through a 70's VT22 Ampeg (2x12 cabinet) and a Dunlop MXR Distortion plus stomp box. Among players that have owned ES330s are Keith Richards, The Edge, Grant Green and BB King used an ES330 earlier in his career. I wouldn't take anything for mine as it has sentimental value. An old friend who was at one time a Capricorn Records recording artist helped me pick it out knowing I was just playing mostly at home. He had a 64 (I believe ) sunburst ES335 , a Firebird and an Explorer. With the ES330 at higher volumes you can get a lot of feedback with the hot pickups and because of the hollow body. I have heard you can put foam rubber in the F-holes to control this but I tend to enjoy it. You can generally find a loud enough volume that's just on the edge of feedback. I abolutely love my ES330.

[JimR56]

I have a 1967 Gibson ES330TD with sunburst finish , mahagony neck and back with rosewood fretboard with mother of pearl blocks (instead of dots). The top is (I think) Maple.

Laminated maple, yes. The back was not made of mahogany, by the way (unless you have something unusual there). The whole body was laminated maple.

 

The pickups are nickel plated P90 single coil (blues) pickups

"Blues" pickups? That's a new one to me. P90's have been used by players in all kinds of genres since their inception, so I can't say this makes much sense to me.

 

and from what I've read they are a popular and sought after pickup if vintage ones can be found.

Absolutely, to the right person or player.

 

Mine has a trapeze tailpiece and Klausen (attempting to spell this correctly) tuners, all original.

Kluson. :)

 

I read the same as above about how the longer necks caused more problems and became a weak part of the guitar. I also believe I read that they can sometimes bring more money than the short necks, simply because they made fewer of them (even though the neck was less reliable). Mine is the shortneck (actually it just joins the body at a different fret) and I have learned to live with it. I've heard rythmn players actually prefer these but I tend to play more lead (blues). I paid $250 back in the early 80's and now it's worth many times more.

That brings back memories... I bought a 1960 model (clean) back around the same time for $200, and was so proud of myself for selling it a few years later for $450. Wish I still had it.

 

It is in absolutely pristine condition. The casinos are comparable but they used less expensive wood.

Where did you hear that? I doubt it. I would have thought they used the same wood for both, back in the 60's when they were both under the Gibson umbrella.

 

My ES330 seems to sound better as the wood ages and as years go by and I wouldn't think of selling it.

They're great guitars. I don't blame you.

[Jerry-ES330]

You are absolutely correct about the maple laminate. As soon as I posted I was polishing on the back and began to question myself. It was looking more like a walnut finish and once I researched , it surely was maple. You tend to get things stuck in your head after some time passes and the old noodle plays tricks on me. As far as the pickups , a friend of mine (roadie for a Southern Rock/Blues band , called my pickups single coil blues pickups , and that too stck in my head. As far as I know he may have been the only person calling them that. A close relative of mine has 2 really nice PRS guitars. He had spent a lot of money on a black Santana PRS model(real USA , not Korean) , and he found that he wanted another guitar with single coil pickups to get the tone he wanted for certain songs. He got a green PRS with a totally diffefren style and sound. I have read the Casinos also had a 5 layer laminated maple-birch (whatever maple/birch means) and have also read some reference to some being made with Spruce. I also read that they were at times making Casino guitars in China and Korea, however , like you said before in different words , you can't take everything you read for the gospel (especially on the Internet). I have read where the Fenders (for instance) that are made in Mexico use cheaper woods like poplar (I think it was poplar) whereas the USA Fenders use a higher quality wood ( and naturally a higher price). I read where the guitars that Eddie Van Halen and Stevie Ray Vaughan made tons of moolah with were cheap knockoff versions of Fender Strats that they had customized. One is even on the cover of a SRV album (can't remember which ). I can remember seeing a PRS SE (Santana) guitar in St. Augustine years ago in a shop window for $299. I thought there has GOT to be a mistake here. I later heard that they were in fact making a cheaper PRS SE in Korea. I was kind of let down because I thought you could pretty much rely on PRS being more on the reliable "high-end" side of guitars. The 2 my cousin has sure are nice. When I said my Gibson was in pristine condition, I failed to mention some slight "checkering" and lines that follow the grain of the wood. To me , it just makes it more beautiful. It still shines like crazy. I only use Gibson or Martin guitar polish because I heard some of the other polishes (ex. furniture) have citrus extracts that can harm the finish. One thing I think we can both agree on , if we could do it again in the $250 and $299 range, we'd jump all over that chance. It seems like in the last 10 years they just keep going up, up, up. Thnks for the info .... later -- Jerry