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light bulb moment...!!!


daveinspain

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I know to many of you this is insignificant but not to me. I always wondered how guitar players could fly up and down the neck and never hit a bad note. Now I know and I am improving my skills at it.

 

1. It is essential that you learn the major and minor scales in all the modes and can play them with ease. Learn the pentatonic scales and any others that interest you as well. The more you know the more freedom you have.

 

2. Know what key or tone the song is in you are playing and if you don't know the key know how to figure it out.

 

3. Know that what ever key you are in, the whole package of shapes apply to that key but change where they are on the neck of the guitar. learn the mode shapes, jonica, dorica, frijia, lidia, mixolidia, eolica and locria These mode names are in Spanish because that's how I learned them but they will be similar to the English names as both the English and Spanish names actually come from Greek.

 

4. Know that, for an example, in a song in the key of G. All the notes in the scale of G will work to improvise on or do a lead on but so will all the notes in the 5th of G which is D and all the notes of the relative 6th will also work. So the root note (G), the perfect 5th (D) and the relative 6th (E) scales will all work as well to use for soloing/improvising...

 

This will give you much more freedom to move around on the neck. I hope I am explaining this right... :-k

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... learn the mode shapes, jonica, dorica, frijia, lidia, mixolidia, eolica and locria These mode names are in Spanish because that's how I learned them but they will be similar to the English names as both the English and Spanish names actually come from Greek. ...

Well, these Greek names translate to German, too as we use these foreign words slightly transcribed in the same sense. I hope I spell them right in English in the following - I couldn't find the items in online dictionaries! [confused]

 

(Comment: I had been wrong and later corrected via editing.)

 

Especially when soloing in a blues, boogie woogie, or rock'n'roll, this in most cases works using a mixolydian scale, and to avoid the 3rd and the 7th. The diminished 3rd bent up to a slightly flat 3rd, however, is an important spice as a "blue note".

 

The 1st locrian triad is one of my favourites since it's the "natural" diminished triad chord besides the three Majors, and the three minors. I like playing of augmented chords, too, but they require an alteration as any chromatic playing.

 

Finally, Steve Lukather once pointed out: "There are no wrong notes, but only bad ideas." [wink]

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I know to many of you this is insignificant but not to me. I always wondered how guitar players could fly up and down the neck and never hit a bad note. Now I know and I am improving my skills at it.

 

1. It is essential that you learn the major and minor scales in all the modes and can play them with ease. Learn the pentatonic scales and any others that interest you as well. The more you know the more freedom you have.

 

2. Know what key or tone the song is in you are playing and if you don't know the key know how to figure it out.

 

3. Know that what ever key you are in, the whole package of shapes apply to that key but change where they are on the neck of the guitar. learn the mode shapes, jonica, dorica, frijia, lidia, mixolidia, eolica and locria These mode names are in Spanish because that's how I learned them but they will be similar to the English names as both the English and Spanish names actually come from Greek.

 

4. Know that, for an example, in a song in the key of G. All the notes in the scale of G will work to improvise on or do a lead on but so will all the notes in the 5th of G which is D and all the notes of the relative 6th will also work. So the root note (G), the perfect 5th (D) and the relative 6th (E) scales will all work as well to use for soloing/improvising...

 

This will give you much more freedom to move around on the neck. I hope I am explaining this right... :-k

And this was a "moment"? [cool]

 

I've gone back to basics to learn a bit of theory, and am studying the material you are referencing now. It's a lot to memorize (still not there yet) and then to internalize (make it part of a "fluent vocabulary"), but I've concluded that's what's been holding me back.

 

WRT the modes, you learned them in Spanish, of course the guitar when introduced to North America was called the "Spanish Guitar". Now I'll pose a question or two. Ah, better yet, I'll hold off and see if those answers present themselves in what I study today!

I have much to learn!

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In the UK we avoid 'hiccups' whenever possible.... <_<

 

So we say Ionian, Mixolydian etc rather than 'ic'...

 

Just one more aspect to the 'smooth' way of life... [biggrin]

 

V

 

:-({|=

 

[blush] I am sorry that I wasn't able to find the words in a dictionary. We spell "-isch" in German, pronounced like "-ish" in English. I will correct that via editing. So I hope it all will be good then.

 

Thank you very much for your tip - I will try to remember.

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And this was a "moment"? [cool] ...

 

Cognition may happen in very different ways - slowly creeping up or suddenly breaking in like a flash of genius.

 

As of the circle of fifth, I prefer thinking upwards only. So I think in a circle of fourth upwards instead of fifth downwards. Those who prefer thinking downwards may apply it vice versa.

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Cognition may happen in very different ways - slowly creeping up or suddenly breaking in like a flash of genius.

 

As of the circle of fifth, I prefer thinking upwards only. So I think in a circle of fourth upwards instead of fifth downwards. Those who prefer thinking downwards may apply it vice versa.

Well, the images actually being a circle, literally following the same it is neither up nor down, but clockwise (for 5ths) or counter clockwise (for 4ths). I'm the visual type, therefore working to learn it visually then convert that to aural and thus tactile memory... no wonder it isn't just a "moment" to me! [laugh]

 

I'm a little confused by your indications of up or down though. Take the key of A. If we go counter clockwise (to the 4th), we get D. 5 half steps up, or 7 half steps down. The 5th OTOH being E, (from A) is 7 half steps up, or 5 half steps down.

 

Is this what you're referring to when you refer to the 4th being up and the 5th being down? (tonally, each being the shortest direction to travel from the tonic to reach the indicated interval)?

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It's just about supposing as a melody instead of a roundabout. I do this always upwards, for the sharp keys in fifth: C - G - D - A - E - B - Fsharp - Csharp (- Gsharp), and for the flat keys in fourth: C - F - Bflat - Eflat - Aflat - Dflat - Gflat - Cflat (- Fflat).

 

Thinking in intervals came much easier to me by assuming something going up or down instead of around and around. Upwards is matching me better than downwards, perhaps since my age is continuously increasing :rolleyes:

 

Convenience is the only reason for me to stay with it. That looks maybe a bit irrational, but it works for me [wink]

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The circle of fifths.

 

Learn it ... Live it.

 

 

Funny thing is I discovered this" Key to improv" before I even knew that's what it was called. It's a game changer for sure. I always wondered how the pros could just play along whenever another artist called out the key a song was in.

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Guest farnsbarns

Your not quite right there, Dave.

 

G major is... G, A, B, C, D, E, and F♯

 

and D Major (the fifth of G) is D, E, F♯, G, A, B, and C♯.

 

If we present them like so...

 

 

G, A, B, C, D, E, F♯, G, A, B, C, D, E, F♯

-----------------D, E, F♯, G, A, B, C♯,D, E, F♯, G, A, B, C♯

 

 

As you can see, all the notes line up apart from the 7th (C vs C#). If both these notes are played at once by different instruments, they'll be dissonant, especially if played in the same octave.

 

If, however, we play in G major with a flattened 7th we are playing the Mixolydian mode. Basically Mixolydian mode in any key is the same as playing the major scale of it's 5th (D), only starting from (or having a tonal centre at) the actual root, in this exapmple, G.

 

For this reason, IMHO, Modes are not required knowledge, they can help with understanding but to say "this is in G major Moxolydian" is the same as saying "This is in G major with a flattened 7th".

 

Why do I prefer the latter? Well, it gives you more information, now a chap who hasn't memorized all the names of all the modes and therefore, knows all the notes in the scale, can still improvise on our scale. It also means that, if you've learned your scales and know where the 7ths for the current key are all over the neck you've only got to remember to play them flat.

 

I'm sure there'll be plenty of people who disagree but I was taught by a New Orleans Jazz musician (you wont catch them talking about modes) and have formed these habits over the last 20 odd years so it's too late to change now!

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Well I guess you are right, if you used the old - major, minor, minor, major, minor, minor, major and you are starting with G then the relative 6th is E minor and the frigia mode, Eb7, will work just fine to improvise on all day long... [biggrin]

 

I'm no expert mind you but I think what I say is true, as I said i'm just starting to get it...

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Guest farnsbarns

Well I guess you are right, if you used the old - major, minor, minor, major, minor, minor, major and you are starting with G then the relative 6th is E minor and the frigia mode, Eb7, will work just fine to improvise on all day long... [biggrin]

 

I'm no expert mind you but I think what I say is true, as I said i'm just starting to get it...

 

Yes, but...

 

If you're playing on a G major scale and I play on a D major scale we'll be dissonant if we both play our 7ths at the same time so it's not true to say "All the notes in the scale of G will work to improvise on or do a lead on but so will all the notes in the 5th of G which is D". Just saying!

 

All that said, we must all remember the artistic license of the composer, if he/she wants dissonance, that's up to them.

 

A good example of artistic license is BB King's regular use of mixed 3rds from one phrase to the next, or even within a phrase.

 

E.G...

 

Playing in G major BB king loves to do this...

 

-----------

-----3-----

3-4--------

--------5--

-----------

-----------

 

or

 

Flat 3rd, 3rd, 5th Root.

 

If you'd like to try this the flat 3rd and 3rd are beat one, the 5th is beat 2 and the root last's for 2 beats. Of course, there's a lot of syncopation so none of the timing is bang on the beat.

 

expanding it a little, try adding flat 3rd, second, flat 7th (slide) root or...

 

-------------------------

-----3------------------

3-4--------3\2--------

--------5--------3/5--

------------------------

------------------------

 

Where \ is a slide down and / is a slide up.

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Yes, but...

 

If you're playing on a G major scale and I play on a D major scale we'll be dissonant if we both play our 7ths at the same time so it's not true to say "All the notes in the scale of G will work to improvise on or do a lead on but so will all the notes in the 5th of G which is D". Just saying!

 

All that said, we must all remember the artistic license of the composer, if he/she wants dissonance, that's up to them.

 

Ok I get that but what do you mean by "but so will all the notes in the 5th of G which is D" All the notes in the 5th of G is the dorica mode so the notes following that mode shape will work over the G major scale?

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What did I mean by a light bulb moment... We'll it sort of all just came together and made sense...

First Dave, let me thank you for posting this thread! It is this type of discourse that I need to engage in and read to further my understanding of music theory, and get to that "light bulb" moment. And why I was getting a laugh out of the whole "moment" thing, is that to me anyway, this only sinks in and becomes part of the knowledge base with a lot of work and study, and the idea of it just hitting in an instant amuses me. Sort of like the career Musician who toured for 20 years, paying dues... then hits it big and becomes an "overnight" success.

 

OTOH, I do get completely what you mean, at some point it just sort of "clicks", as in "Ah, now I see... it all makes sense now". Thing is, with me, I know the logic behind it and it does make sense, I've just not gotten all the knowledge required to go with it to stick yet. So for me, it is more of a process of working through the material which I know in principal is correct.

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Guest farnsbarns

Ok I get that but what do you mean by "but so will all the notes in the 5th of G which is D" All the notes in the 5th of G is the dorica mode so the notes following that mode shape will work over the G major scale?

 

OK, yes, spot on, you need to play D in the correct mode for the actual key, that wasn't clear and I thought you had not realised it. Seems I was wrong and you had. At least anyone coming along and reading this thread now will understand so I'm not completely useless! [biggrin]

 

BTW, when I said "but so will all the notes in the 5th of G which is D". I was quoting your OP.

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First Dave, let me thank you for posting this thread! It is this type of discourse that I need to engage in and read to further my understanding of music theory, and get to that "light bulb" moment. And why I was getting a laugh out of the whole "moment" thing, is that to me anyway, this only sinks in and becomes part of the knowledge base with a lot of work and study, and the idea of it just hitting in an instant amuses me. Sort of like the career Musician who toured for 20 years, paying dues... then hits it big and becomes an "overnight" success.

 

OTOH, I do get completely what you mean, at some point it just sort of "clicks", as in "Ah, now I see... it all makes sense now". Thing is, with me, I know the logic behind it and it does make sense, I've just not gotten all the knowledge required to go with it to stick yet. So for me, it is more of a process of working through the material which I know in principal is correct.

 

I'm right with you Mr. T My music teacher/professor has been pounding these ideas into me for about a year now and I'm just starting to get it. I don't think it would ever have sunken in if I didn't learn the scales modes and their names. It just helps you keep track of things. I've been doing music all my life without knowing what i was doing, just going on what felt right and goes well together. Now I have an idea where to go if I'm looking for the right chord or notes while creating...

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OK, yes, spot on, you need to play D in the correct mode for the actual key, that wasn't clear and I thought you had not realised it. Seems I was wrong and you had. At least anyone coming along and reading this thread now will understand so I'm not completely useless! [biggrin]

 

BTW, when I said "but so will all the notes in the 5th of G which is D". I was quoting your OP.

 

Not at all the discussion is great...! I think I remember being told to watch out for the 7ths and I knew you were quoting me... [biggrin]

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Guest farnsbarns

7ths are tricky little buggers full stop. As you probably know, when ever you see a chord described as *7, for example...

 

B7

 

x21202

 

---2---

---0---

---2---

---1---

---2---

---x---

 

It really refers to a flattened 7th.

 

The thing I find weird is that in a 1/4/5 twelve bar the 3rd of the chord derived from the 5th is a major 7th in the root.

 

So, a 12 bar in E could go E E E E A A E E B7 A E B7. The third in that b7, highligted in red...

 

---2---

---0---

---2---

---1---

---2---

---x---

 

 

is the major 7th in the root (The third in B and the major 7th in E are both E flat) so we must simply avoid the flattened 7th if soloing in E over B in this example. My ears knew this long before my concious mind.

 

The way each of us learns the logic of music and the logic of our fret boards depends upon our starting point, I have found many times that when I learn a song with something odd in it I don't get at first I eventually realise and see how it slots in with other things. It seems like reverse engineering the new fact and getting back to where I was before. For me, that is part of the beauty of music, not only music itself but the elegance of the maths and physics behind it.

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Well I guess you are right, if you used the old - major, minor, minor, major, minor, minor, major and you are starting with G then the relative 6th is E minor and the frigia mode, Eb7, will work just fine to improvise on all day long... [biggrin]

 

I'm no expert mind you but I think what I say is true, as I said i'm just starting to get it...

Sorry, but in mixolydian order it is major, minor, diminished, major, minor, minor, major.

 

There always are three majors, three minors, 1/4/5 in both tone genders, and one diminished if staying without alteration (avoiding chromatic notes). And be aware of the tritonus (e. g. B F B, upwards or downwards) - they called it the devil in music long ago [scared]

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I too had a 'lightbulb moment' very similar to what you have described, long ago...I used to practice major scales 6 ways; 2 octave scale with root on E or A string, Ist finger starts, 2nd finger starts, 4th finger. I did this for years without anything but blind faith and wanting to fret the instrument accurately. One day about 5-6 years into this I was doggedly running through all keys, all positions...and the fretboard sort of lit up...I got the lightbulb on FULL...I could almost see it above my head...I had read about the modes and it all suddenly made sense to me...one of the greatest moments of my life.

 

To anyone reading this...just keep practising with your 'alertness on' and a sincere desire to figure it out, and it will come.

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