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Sancho Panza

Question about a scale

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Hi Sancho...the short, classical-sounding part definitely uses notes from the D harmonic minor scale. DEFGABbC#. In the solo he puts in some notes from D blues scale.

 

In the early 1970s there was a dispute between the remaining core members of Fleetwood Mac and their manager Clifford Davis over who owned their name. Davis assumed that he did and hired members of Elmer Gantry to be the 'fake' Fleetwood Mac for a scheduled USA tour that resulted in lawsuits. Fax n' info...

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Thanks for that, will try work it out once I get the guitar back!

 

Yes, I remember reading something about that, pretty weird.

 

Their first album is mind blowing, pre-prog, psychedelic, it holds various genres.

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Hi Sancho...the short, classical-sounding part definitely uses notes from the D harmonic minor scale. DEFGABbC#. In the solo he puts in some notes from D blues scale.

 

How do you figure out what scale he is playing? I've been trying to figure out one, I believe that it isn't that hard (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkPL5fSTBCE, but it would be waaaay easier to have a scale to build from.

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Hi Sancho...the short, classical-sounding part definitely uses notes from the D harmonic minor scale. DEFGABbC#. In the solo he puts in some notes from D blues scale.

 

In the early 1970s there was a dispute between the remaining core members of Fleetwood Mac and their manager Clifford Davis over who owned their name. Davis assumed that he did and hired members of Elmer Gantry to be the 'fake' Fleetwood Mac for a scheduled USA tour that resulted in lawsuits. Fax n' info...

yes yes, blame Elmer.

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How do you figure out what scale he is playing? I've been trying to figure out one, I believe that it isn't that hard (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkPL5fSTBCE, but it would be waaaay easier to have a scale to build from.

It's down to training your ear. Start by getting able to identify the root or key note. That will take you awhile.

And yes, you will make the whole process easier in the long run if you learn some scale patterns by heart. 'Standard' Minor pentatonic, blues scale (min pent. with 1 more note), Major scale, Natural Minor and perhaps find out how Harmonic Minor is different to Natural Minor (one note is raised one fret).

Never mind speed or trying to play flashy runs, just keep learning to 'hear by heart' off the root note initially. It does take awhile, depending on how much time you have to give to it. It can be encouraged but not forced.

Musical pitch recognition is one of those areas where you are either right or wrong..."ninety-nine and a half won't do"!

 

And I loved Elmer's comment....regards!

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So both scales are rooted in the harmonic minor?

 

I'm afraid not. I understand why you ask that though. The 2nd example (blimey you're obscure guv'nor!) features a guitar solo which...hmm...it's difficult to say whether or how much the guitarist was aware of the scales. This one is again for my money 'mixed scale usage' and the formula is 1,b2,3,4,5,b7...which gives us a total of 6 notes but a scale should really have 5 or 7 (or 8 in the case of 'synthetic' scales).

 

So this is possibly;

1) An 'off' derivation of a melodic minor mode called the superlocrian but - no, I don't think the guitarist knew that at all.

 

2) A run using the half-step/whole-step diminished scale. That almost fits and given the examples you have put up in past posts, you should find out about this one. 1, b2, b3, nat 3, b5, nat 5, 6, b7. This scale has 8 notes because the diminished chord has 4 notes. But...I don't think it's that either.

 

3) Please excuse this somewhat arrogant conjecture. As you know, in 1967 the Beatles released 'Sgt Pepper' which featured the G.Harrison track 'Within you, without you'. The melody of that song was almost entirely composed of notes from an Indian pentatonic scale which runs 1,3,4,5,b7. This scale (which does NOT follow the rules generally applied to pentatonics in Western music theory) can also be found in the music of Indian sitar maestro Ravi Shankar, which is where Harrison got it. As you also know, the record was highly influential.

 

I could be way off here, but I am reasonably certain that the guitar player on this record would have found the above scale on 'Pepper', sort-of-mastered it and added the b2 note. I wonder where else he might have got it...? I'm also fairly sure that they would have played it in key of A (the chord is major) although it comes out a little flat from concert A in 2012, but they didn't have guitar tuners in NZ in 1968 so in fact the whole track is really quite miraculous and ahead of its time. Sounds a bit like the Yardbirds.

 

Regards Sancho!

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I'm afraid not. I understand why you ask that though. The 2nd example (blimey you're obscure guv'nor!) features a guitar solo which...hmm...it's difficult to say whether or how much the guitarist was aware of the scales. This one is again for my money 'mixed scale usage' and the formula is 1, b2,b3, natural 3, 5,b7...which gives us a total of 6 notes but a scale should really have 5 or 7 (or 8 in the case of 'synthetic' scales).

 

So this is possibly;

1) A derivation of a melodic minor mode called the superlocrian but - no, I don't think the guitarist knew that.

 

2) A run straight out of the half-step/whole-step diminished scale. That fits and given the examples you have put up in past posts, you should find out about that scale. But...I don't think it's that either.

 

3) Please excuse this somewhat arrogant conjecture. As you know, in 1967 the Beatles released 'Sgt Pepper' which featured the G.Harrison track 'Within you, without you'. The melody of that song was almost entirely composed of notes from an Indian pentatonic scale which runs 1,3,4,5,b7. This scale (which does NOT follow the rules generally applied to pentatonics in Western music theory) can also be found in the music of Indian sitar maestro Ravi Shankar, which is where Harrison got it. As you also know, the record was highly influential.

 

I could be way off here, but I am reasonably certain that the guitar player on this record would have found the above scale on 'Pepper', sort-of-mastered it and added the b2 note. I wonder where else he might have got it...? I'm also fairly sure that they would have played it in key of A (the chord is major) although it comes out a little flat from concert A in 2012, but they didn't have guitar tuners in NZ in 1968 so in fact the whole track is really quite miraculous and ahead of its time. Sounds a bit like the Yardbirds.

 

Regards Sancho!

Thanks for your in depth analysis jdmg!

 

Maybe it's one of those songs that uses influences from the time, I know for a fact that many bands started to experiment with eastern sounding guitar before Sgt. Pepper approximately around '65, '66. One can assume that Butterfield Blues Bands "East-West" must've been a huge influence on young guitarists, but I do concur with you about the Beatles record. I read though that the writer of the song spend some time in USA in '66 or '67, can't remember and can't seem to find the interview either, maybe he was exposed to the eastern influences there. Many of the songs that I've heard don't use a particular scale, they just add, excuse me now, since I don't know ANY theory, so it might look wrong, a semi-tone to get that "eastern" sound.

 

Two examples:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fqLiojNEsI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js6H1fxEhHc

 

So I don't think that he was ahead of his time, just played what sounded "in" for that time. Though I wish that he had a scale, would've been easier for me to have that as a starting point, haha.

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Thanks for your in depth analysis jdgm!

 

Maybe it's one of those songs that uses influences from the time, I know for a fact that many bands started to experiment with eastern sounding guitar before Sgt. Pepper approximately around '65, '66. One can assume that Butterfield Blues Bands "East-West" must've been a huge influence on young guitarists, but I do concur with you about the Beatles record. I read though that the writer of the song spend some time in USA in '66 or '67, can't remember and can't seem to find the interview either, maybe he was exposed to the eastern influences there. Many of the songs that I've heard don't use a particular scale, they just add, excuse me now, since I don't know ANY theory, so it might look wrong, a semi-tone to get that "eastern" sound.

 

So I don't think that he was ahead of his time, just played what sounded "in" for that time. Though I wish that he had a scale, would've been easier for me to have that as a starting point, haha.

 

I think you've nailed it, the thinking I mean. Note I edited my post slightly while you were reading it, apologies.

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