Tuning problems

[Weller]

ive got a VOS 1961 les paul (sg shape) with a maestro trem, absolutely amazing sounding guitar i must say!

the only problem is that it loses tuning very easily (typical of guitars with trems). Is there anything i can do to improve the tuning? maybe by installing locking tuners?

 

thanks

[brundaddy]

Yep, Sperzel locking tuners.

[Weller]

will they fit without re-drilling? also would you think sperzels would spoil the look of the guitar seeing as it currently has aged vintage style tuners with plastic knobs?

[hellion102792]

When you go to tune, does the culprit string make a "plink" noise? If so then the problem lies in the nut, not the tuners. The string is binding itself into the plastic slots, which are probably too narrow. There are a few things you can do: (1) Use a thin hobby knife to grind some graphite off the tip of a pencil and spread it into the slots, (2) Look up a product called Big Bendz Nut Sauce, (3) Take it to a local luthier and have him widen the nut slots, or (4) buy a bone or graphite nut and have a luthier install it. The graphite seems to work fine for me, ever since I tried it I can do some crazy bends without the strings popping out of tune.

[Weller]

you can hear the 'plink' noise you described when using the trem sometimes, not when tuning though.

[Tim Plains]

Let's see some pictures of it. I have one too and it's wild...just wild! If you have the Custom Shop version, I believe it's referred to as the '62 reissue because there already is a '61 reissue.

[Weller]

[Dynadude]

The experience I had with these tremolos on an SG, is that you'd better get used to re-tuning very often, and no amount of changes will make much difference. The same goes for Bigsbys.

 

I tried the graphite, the new nut, the locking tuners, different strings, voodoo, exorcisms, and nothing made any signifigant change. I finally took it off and sold it.

[sunburstfaded]

I had a Gary Rossington reissue SG with Grovers and the big tremolo...it would stay in tune for 30 seconds on a good day. My choices were ditch the trem or the guitar, I sold it.

[80LPC]

Even if you could eliminate the problems at the nut, you still have the horror of a trem system that moves the bridge when the string tension varies. The bridge and saddles were not originally designed with this in mind. I would enjoy the sound of the guitar, but leave the trem alone.

[Marcelo]

Can the problem also lie in the choice of strings you are using?

 

For instance, my guitar does NOT have a tremolo and it had a set of old strings until recently, so I adjusted the bridge to also get the strings it in-tune at the 12th fret. These old strings were beginning to lose their elasticity and I needed to tune the guitar everyday as the strings kept stretching on their own. When I changed them for a new set of strings, the old bridge intonation adjustment was now way off, so I had to do it all over again. Also, the guitar went from low action to high action just because of the new strings, so I had to lower the bridge too. My guess is that if you use stiffer strings, your guitar may stay in tune longer, but the drawback is that it may make the guitar a bit harder to play.

[80LPC]

That's right, heavier gauges do give better tuning stability, as well as better and louder tone. But they take a while to get used to, and make bends and legato more difficult. It's interesting how you mention that the bridge needed lowering for the new strings. If this was the case, it is very likely that the truss rod requires an adjustment also. How much relief does your neck have ? What is the height of the action on the 1st and 6th strings at the 12th fret and the last fret ?

[Marcelo]

I just noticed that the truss rod must have come loose, because the neck now bows forward. The shop that fixed this for me a few weeks ago, obviously messed it up, so I have to return the guitar back to them to set the neck straight once again. All I did myself was to adjust the bridge height for lower action and adjust the intonation at the 12th fret and I then put on a new set of strings. I don't think that my actions caused the neck to bow out, but the guy might want to charge an additional fee for doing this neck adjustment again, which I will refuse to pay. I am probably in for an arguement with this guy.....

[Dynadude]

I just noticed that the truss rod must have come loose' date=' because the neck now bows forward. The shop that fixed this for me a few weeks ago, obviously messed it up, so I have to return the guitar back to them to set the neck straight once again. All I did myself was to adjust the bridge height for lower action and adjust the intonation at the 12th fret and I then put on a new set of strings. I don't think that my actions caused the neck to bow out, but the guy might want to charge an additional fee for doing this neck adjustment again, which I will refuse to pay. I am probably in for an arguement with this guy.....[/quote']

 

A good tech would have suggested that you install new strings before doing adjustments, so he shouldn't be surprised to see you.

[Marcelo]

I went to the tech last night, he set the neck straight, this morning, its a banana once again. What can be done to fix this?

[80LPC]

Interesting....Some necks are a little slow to respond to a truss rod adjustment. But, there could be a problem.

It might be an idea to let another tech check your guitar over.

[Thundergod]

you can hear the 'plink' noise you described when using the trem sometimes' date=' not when tuning though.[/quote']

 

Maybe the strings arent installed correctly, that or you are not tuning correctly (always up... never down)

[Dynadude]

I went to the tech last night' date=' he set the neck straight, this morning, its a banana once again. What can be done to fix this?[/quote']

 

If the adjustments aren't holding, there has to be a problem with the truss rod itself, or it's anchor points in the neck.

 

You need to be sure the tech knows what he is doing here. Make sure he has checked for stripped threads at the top, and that the top anchor point is not crushing the wood. If the problem is at the other end of the truss rod, you will have to get it replaced, which could require some drastic neck disassembly and repair.

 

Some rods have threads at both ends, and the rod itself can be replaced without "surgery" on the guitar. As long as the threads in the anchor are good, that will sort out the problem. If the anchor threads are bad, or the anchor is not holding in the wood, you're back to the drastic repairs.

[Marcelo]

I took it to the tech once again. He told me to stop looking at the neck binding itself because it can be misleading, instead, he took out a long metal ruler and stuck it between strings 3 and 4 and we could see that the frets were pretty much in-line with each other. So, maybe it was the perfectionist in me, this guitar was OK and I was looking for perfection.

 

I still had him adjust the truss rod to pull the headstock back a bit, he warned me that this would require me to raise the action a lot at the bridge. He was right, I had to almost double the action as I was getting fret buzz on the low-e when played open. Eventually and lucklily, the truss rod settled down, but it did not fully sag like before (so the truss rod must be holding up now), so I was able to lower the action a lot. I now got the action so that there is a 2/32 clearance from the bottom of the low-e to the fret at the 12th fret, which is supposed to be so low its almost obscene. I had taken the guitar in with a 3/32 clearance and the tech told me that this was already too low, now I got it even lower and it makes the guitar even easier to play and I really like it like this. Somehow, even with the lower action, I don't get the fret buzz when fretting at the 12th fret and upwards anymore (unless I pluck it really hard, then it will buzz, but this would be expected), it must be that the neck is performing just about perfectly. I hope it does not sag from here.

[80LPC]

Good to hear that your truss rod is working fine - from the way you described the curvature of the neck, it sounded like the truss rod had given up the ghost ! Using a good quality straight edge along the fretboard tells the real story. You can also press a string at the 12th fret, and with the index finger of your left hand press the same string at the 1st fret. You now have a 'straight edge'. Look at the clearance of the string as it passes over the the 5th fret.

The 5th fret is mid-way between the nut and the 12th fret, and the clearance indicates the amount of relief that the neck has. Try this on each string - the clearance should be consistent. Some guitarists prefer zero clearance (no relief), but there is a price to pay as the bridge needs to be raised to prevent buzzing. I prefer a small clearance for a low action.

An action of 1/16 is 1.58 mm, and I consider this to be a low/medium action. With carefully levelled frets, and just a hint of relief, an action of 1 mm on both the 1st and 6th strings is possible. Hard picking will produce a slap of the string against the frets, and this naturally affects sustain. But chords are so much easier, and legato and tapped lines are effortless. By the way, an action of 3/32 (2.38 mm) is most definitely high ! When an action is this high, the frets can be quite uneven, and yet there will be no buzzing. High actions hide a multitude of sins !

[Marcelo]

Thank you for defining what low action is, it seems that the music stores think that 5/32 is low (so they can cover up the shortcomings of the guitars they sell, lol). I think that my mistake was that I was looking at the binding to judge the status of my frets. The neck binding can play some major games with your eyes, I tell you!

 

On the 6th string. I checked the clearance at the 5th fret after pressing both the 1st and 12th frets and this clearance was very small that I could not measure it, maybe the thickness of a hair or two. My string clearance at the 12th fret is 2/32". I could try reducing this further, but I am pretty happy with it right now.

 

On the 1st string, I had this side of the bridge set lower as the thin strings oscillate more compactly. The clearance at the 12th fret is 1/32" on this side.

[80LPC]

5/32 (3.9mm) is certainly very handy for concealing dubious fretwork and uneven fretboards. My friend with a Yamaha SG3000 was always envious of my SG's action. I checked it over and found that the fretboard had a slight 'roller- coaster' type undulation. I sorted it out, and the playabilty was amazing. Likewise, when I bought a Japanese 50s Strat reissue, the action was 3mm, and the frets were all over the place.

I know what you mean about the binding - it's scraped in by hand, and it can be decieving. My 'The SG' is unbound, and you can sight down the sides of the fretboard and clearly see the relief. Some of the scraping on my Custom leaves something to be desired, as it has been carried out a bit too enthusiastically and marked the fretboard playing surface. - Oh well, that's the 'human touch' for you.

I have to say you are doing very well to get an action of 1/32 (0.79mm) on the 1st string with no buzzing. It sounds like your neck is adjusted spot-on for a low action. One thng I forgot to mention when checking the relief with the string method, is that the guitar must be in the normal playing position.