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New Specs for J200 Custom...compromises ...


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Bob Taylor corners the market on ebony...dictates his terms (you'll take the non black stuff whether you like it or not..and probably at the same price) and here is the result...

The Fingerboard & Bridge on the top of the line,fancy,expensive J200 Custom..is now going to Rosewood...(and if it is not going to be Madagascar rosewood its a change for the worst)

Thanks Bob

Wasn't it enough that we had two mass production guitars at that level....both with great history & beautifull designs..

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whats that got to do with bob taylor ?

(genuine question)

Taylor now owns the company harvesting most of the world's supply of ebony. They will be primarily selling striped ebony because it is more readily available.

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Bob Taylor corners the market on ebony...dictates his terms (you'll take the non black stuff whether you like it or not..and probably at the same price) and here is the result...

The Fingerboard & Bridge on the top of the line,fancy,expensive J200 Custom..is now going to Rosewood...(and if it is not going to be Madagascar rosewood its a change for the worst)

Thanks Bob

Wasn't it enough that we had two mass production guitars at that level....both with great history & beautifull designs..

 

Nick ,

 

I think the sonic qualiities of the not all black rosewood is just as great. you might wanna ask gibson if they can put that on a J 200 custom.

 

JC

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Nick ,

 

I think the sonic qualiities of the not all black rosewood is just as great. you might wanna ask gibson if they can put that on a J 200 custom.

 

JC

 

Hi Juan

You mean "not all black ebony.."

I think the non black ebony probably sounds & feels the same ..but Indian Rosewood doesn't and unless its a really nice select one looks cheapish...

I like ebony fingerboards, the notes seem to snap off quicker & is brighter..Brazilian too though not as bright..but Indian seems to absorb & slow down notes a bit (thats the way I see it anyway)

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whats that got to do with bob taylor ?

(genuine question)

Hi

A little while back was a video of Bob Taylor and (in general) his arrangement to control one of the last sources of bulk ebony & his intentions..under the "green" guise..

 

Though what I say may not be true..its probably true.. plus Im just grumpy cause I cut the tip of my finger off again while sharpening my chisels & cant play guitar till it grows back in a week or so. : )

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Hi Juan

You mean "not all black ebony.."

I think the non black ebony probably sounds & feels the same ..but Indian Rosewood doesn't and unless its a really nice select one looks cheapish...

I like ebony fingerboards, the notes seem to snap off quicker & is brighter..Brazilian too though not as bright..but Indian seems to absorb & slow down notes a bit (thats the way I see it anyway)

 

yeah sorry I meant "not all black ebony" lol . I will certainly start doing my guitar in a greener manner =) .

I hope alot of folks here and elsewhere do so too . I'll start asking if gibson has "GReen" woods like the ebony that isn't completly black .

 

 

 

JC

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.

This situation has been brewing for years. Quite some time ago I watched Martin bring on synthetic and HPL materials. While compromises and/or alternative materials are now most likely a necessary thing, I'm very disappointed that the warning signs in past didn't cause the industry to better manage the available resources.

 

 

.

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Taylor now owns the company harvesting most of the world's supply of ebony. They will be primarily selling striped ebony because it is more readily available.

 

Doesn't this mean Bob Taylor is a little more forward thinking than say... Gibson? Why blame the guy for seeing the situation and doing something about it that is environmentally and commercially sound?

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Doesn't this mean Bob Taylor is a little more forward thinking than say... Gibson? Why blame the guy for seeing the situation and doing something about it that is environmentally and commercially sound?

 

Nah..Some people just don't want to become foresters or suppliers of timber...and just want to keep it simple (make guitars).

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Doesn't this mean Bob Taylor is a little more forward thinking than say... Gibson? Why blame the guy for seeing the situation and doing something about it that is environmentally and commercially sound?

Oh yes, I for one absolutely applaud Bob Taylor for his position on this. Discoloration in ebony does not change the quality of the wood, only the appearance. Martin has been using striped ebony for quite some time, including the board & bridge on my 2001 custom, which shows hints of brown striping throughout while remaining very dark.

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Well, I'm going to come across as a redneck here (although I'm not really) but I like ebony in black a lot.

 

I also think Bob is a bit of nerd.

 

I think I've also had I think one pint too kany ..

 

I like ebony in black much better too..but Id rather have I think the non black over Indian Rosewood.

And I think like most other people in positions "of power"..the green movement is mostly about the green of money foremost.

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I'm very disappointed that the warning signs in past didn't cause the industry to better manage the available resources.

"The" industry? If you meant the music industry, they use something like a fraction of 1% of tropical hardwoods. No matter how well or badly they manage resources, their effect on availability and sustainability of ebony and rosewood is negligible.

 

-- Bob R

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"The" industry? If you meant the music industry, they use something like a fraction of 1% of tropical hardwoods. No matter how well or badly they manage resources, their effect on availability and sustainability of ebony and rosewood is negligible.

 

That's the same short sightedness I commented on. While the majority of the tropical hardwood is used in the furniture and flooring industry, there's nothing stopping the music industry from trying to secure their own supply - that's in the topic post - Bob Taylor and his ebony. Another example - Tropical American Tree Farms.

 

 

.

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I know that Jean Larrivee leaves the light coloured streaking of the natural ebony in the wood because of its natural beauty. I also know that many guitar makers have routinely used the striped ebony but dyed it black to get rid of the stripes.

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Ren said in the Montana Tour I posted a while ago that we had to be good stewards because wood doesn't grow on trees anymore(lol) ...

so I think Bob and Ren are like minded as far as being green goes .

 

I certainly don't need my ebony fully black ... if it helps the planet than hey I'm on the green ship

 

 

 

 

 

 

JC

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That's the same short sightedness I commented on. While the majority of the tropical hardwood is used in the furniture and flooring industry, there's nothing stopping the music industry from trying to secure their own supply ...

I think the source of our difference in perspective here that you seem to view Bob Taylor as nothing more than a representative of the music industry. The way I see the situation is that Bob Taylor realized that musical industry practices were ultimately irrelevant to supply problems. For that reason, he chose to get involved in another industry, wood harvesting, where he could make a real difference -- by taking control of ebony production for all industries that use the stuff -- addressing not so much his concerns qua guitar manufacturer as his concerns qua passionate environmentalist.

 

"[T]he music industry ... trying to secure their own supply" is old news. Taylor and Martin and Gibson have all been involved in efforts to assure availability of tonewood for the industry. For example, obtaining exclusive rights to a grove of Sitka large enough to keep the industry supplied for the next century. What's new and exciting in Bob Taylor's actions is that he's moved beyond ensuring availability for the industry to ensuring availability simpliciter, going beyond the bounds and concerns of the music industry.

 

The lesson here isn't that the music industry should become "greener". (Not that there's anything wrong with that.) It's that, if you care about conservation of natural resources, you may need to broaden your perspectives way beyond "your industry".

 

-- Bob R

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there's nothing stopping the music industry from trying to secure their own supply - that's in the topic post - Bob Taylor and his ebony.

You know, I've never really cared for Taylor guitars, but Bob Taylor's rationale on this makes complete sense. Why trash multiple trees just to get to the ones with pure black ebony? I can see why Taylor grew into the company that it is. The leadship is aggressive & often moves in it's own unique direction, but at the same time they remain thoughtful of the big picture.

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Bob Taylor corners the market on ebony...dictates his terms (you'll take the non black stuff whether you like it or not..and probably at the same price) and here is the result...

The Fingerboard & Bridge on the top of the line,fancy,expensive J200 Custom..is now going to Rosewood...(and if it is not going to be Madagascar rosewood its a change for the worst)

Thanks Bob

Wasn't it enough that we had two mass production guitars at that level....both with great history & beautifull designs..

 

Watch this and learn. This is a CEO that understands guitars, guitarists and his responsibility to his business and the planet.

 

Bob Taylor on Ebony

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anCGvfsBoFY

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Watch this and learn. This is a CEO that understands guitars, guitarists and his responsibility to his business and the planet.

 

Bob Taylor on Ebony

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anCGvfsBoFY

 

Hi.

I'd seen this & this is what i was commenting on initially.

 

Bob Taylor is a maker of "mass produced guitars"...

An instrument does not reach its full potential in the mass production process..especially an acoustic instrument.

He is gobbeling up more wood than anyone.

His foremost responsibility is to profits..business.

The green thing is just a justification to the guitar player for the decision he is making.

 

Here's a responsible move for Bob Tayor ..stop mass production, begin hand crafting each instrument in a tradional old world non compromise manner and not let an instrument out of the workshoppes untill it sings.

Less materials ...lots of labor and pride in personal workmanship..

Less uninspiring guitars replaced by few high quality instruments,that cost a lot more,but are worth it.

Less time shopping, more time playing.

As I see it, lots of premium timber is used on average instruments.

 

The traditional mentality was the serious musician had one instrument...the best he could aquire..and then a cheaper spare.

It was treasured..used..and when the musician got the cash together and a better one came available ,the main instrument was given up to fund the better one.

That sounds the most green to me.

A guitar sounds best if it is played a lot anyway & a single good guitar can last the entire life of the owner easily.

 

Of course the "business"reads this and what naturally comes to his mind ..and I mean n a t u r a l l y comes to his mind, is how to get the customer to pay that luthier level price..for a cheap instrument.

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Hi.

I'd seen this & this is what i was commenting on initially.

 

Bob Taylor is a maker of "mass produced guitars"...

An instrument does not reach its full potential in the mass production process..especially an acoustic instrument.

He is gobbeling up more wood than anyone.

His foremost responsibility is to profits..business.

The green thing is just a justification to the guitar player for the decision he is making.

 

Here's a responsible move for Bob Tayor ..stop mass production, begin hand crafting each instrument in a tradional old world non compromise manner and not let an instrument out of the workshoppes untill it sings.

Less materials ...lots of labor and pride in personal workmanship..

Less uninspiring guitars replaced by few high quality instruments,that cost a lot more,but are worth it.

Less time shopping, more time playing.

As I see it, lots of premium timber is used on average instruments.

 

The traditional mentality was the serious musician had one instrument...the best he could aquire..and then a cheaper spare.

It was treasured..used..and when the musician got the cash together and a better one came available ,the main instrument was given up to fund the better one.

That sounds the most green to me.

A guitar sounds best if it is played a lot anyway & a single good guitar can last the entire life of the owner easily.

 

Of course the "business"reads this and what naturally comes to his mind ..and I mean n a t u r a l l y comes to his mind, is how to get the customer to pay that luthier level price..for a cheap instrument.

 

 

Wowsers, I got my face chewed off at the AGF for a post that wasn't fit to lick the boots of the above in terms of going against the Saint Bob trend over there. I wish I'd posted that instead, there'd still be folk taking high blood pressure tablets about it.

 

 

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Hi.

I'd seen this & this is what i was commenting on initially.

 

Bob Taylor is a maker of "mass produced guitars"...

An instrument does not reach its full potential in the mass production process..especially an acoustic instrument.

He is gobbeling up more wood than anyone.

His foremost responsibility is to profits..business.

The green thing is just a justification to the guitar player for the decision he is making.

 

Here's a responsible move for Bob Tayor ..stop mass production, begin hand crafting each instrument in a tradional old world non compromise manner and not let an instrument out of the workshoppes untill it sings.

Less materials ...lots of labor and pride in personal workmanship..

Less uninspiring guitars replaced by few high quality instruments,that cost a lot more,but are worth it.

Less time shopping, more time playing.

As I see it, lots of premium timber is used on average instruments.

 

The traditional mentality was the serious musician had one instrument...the best he could aquire..and then a cheaper spare.

It was treasured..used..and when the musician got the cash together and a better one came available ,the main instrument was given up to fund the better one.

That sounds the most green to me.

A guitar sounds best if it is played a lot anyway & a single good guitar can last the entire life of the owner easily.

 

Of course the "business"reads this and what naturally comes to his mind ..and I mean n a t u r a l l y comes to his mind, is how to get the customer to pay that luthier level price..for a cheap instrument.

 

 

Nick ,

 

I get your point but I guess Taylor is pretty much the biggest guitar builder out there in terms of how many guitars they are putting out.

another things is that Bob claims he had never seen a Martin or played a Gibson when he started building guitars in the 70's so I don't think he has the notion of traditional luthiery ... like the old masters . I think the best small shop for fine guitars would be Santa Cruz with Richard Hoover .

The single small shop guitars I'd like to play at one point in my life a Froggy Bottom GUitars : http://froggybottomguitars.com/

F.B is run by Michael Millard who does things the old way ...

 

 

JC

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Ummm you're saying that other guitar manufacturers like Gibson and Martin are not mass producing instruments? Why would Taylor have to cease mass production of guitars and turn out 10's of guitars a day rather than 100's of guitars a day and other companies don't? I don't get your whole line of reasoning. Deciding to use currently discarded ebony from a legal source rather than continuing the practice of destroying 9 in 10 trees seems to me to be an excellent decision. Finding ways to obtain illegal wood to mass produce guitars doesn't sound like a great decision to me.

 

And I DON'T bow at the feet of Bob Taylor. I admire him and like my Taylor 12. I adore my Gibsons. I'd adore my Gibsons even more even if they had little markings in the ebony and the company was run by such a person as Taylor.

 

If you want your own specifications for a J200, then have the custom shop build you one to order (BTO).

 

Your first post said "..is now going to Rosewood...(and if it is not going to be Madagascar rosewood its a change for the worst)"

 

'Splain to me Lucy... why is Bob Taylor FORCING Gibson NOT to use ebony and not allowing them to use Madagascar rosewood?

 

Your complaints sound more like a rant and a vent about Gibson having to change rather than any real arguments. And your judgement on the quality of Taylor guitars is purely subjective.

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Nick ,

 

I get your point but I guess Taylor is pretty much the biggest guitar builder out there in terms of how many guitars they are putting out.

another things is that Bob claims he had never seen a Martin or played a Gibson when he started building guitars in the 70's so I don't think he has the notion of traditional luthiery ... like the old masters . I think the best small shop for fine guitars would be Santa Cruz with Richard Hoover .

The single small shop guitars I'd like to play at one point in my life a Froggy Bottom GUitars : http://froggybottomguitars.com/

F.B is run by Michael Millard who does things the old way ...

 

 

JC

 

Hi Juan

I have seen Froggy Guitars in pictures & they are incredibly stunning looking...but the price of the first two guitars they post on they're face page $19 & $23K..is maybe beyond expensive (for a new flat top guitar).

Setting myself as a target but not meaning to insult anyone from that State (Vermont)..in my limited experience with things that come from there..

despite they're lowish cost of living , they seem to incorporate an exceptional amount of greed into they pricing.

I stress seems.. as that is the impression I have gotten ..the most expensive house paint in this country which we often use is sold through guys up there is aprox $220 a US Gallon...($1K to paint a regular sized room ! )

A good Tung oil stain made there is $160 for a gallon..

Ive had a quote to replace an estimated 20 Slates on our roof five years ago..from a guy up there..a couple hr job to be done whenever he was nearby... $1600...!

And another time a wood shingle roof.

I can't even bring myself to buy they're maple syrup anymore..and I love that damn stuff : )

When I hear something comes or is made in Vermont I am not expecting good value for money.

All the best

Nick

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