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ES175 saddle not attached to the body


Elmer

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I use 12's no issue at all, itonation stay's good. I never use a pick, I realy smack and pull my strings hard to get a good sound (good is maybe not the word, the sound I want is better expressed). But the 175 stay's in tune.

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How can it be BS if guys like Nugent and Brian Setzer are doing it?

 

There are certain things that HAVE to be done to "touring" gear, to make them stable platforms for shipping and handling, and night after night of use and abuse.

 

I spent the intermission at a show of an internationally renown jazz guitarist (John Pizzarelli) repairing his guitar (with a Swiss Army Knife) that had pickguard mounted pickup and did not fair so well in the baggage compartment of an airliner, even in a $1000 guitar case. Shortly after that incident he switched over to a fingerboard mounted pickup system. Since his guitars are handmade for him (by Bill Moll) to his own specs, this change was not because it sounded better... it was because it made it more "roadworthy".

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I should have also added that it appears that Gretsch does it to a lot of their archtops (I didn't look at every model but did look through the specs of some on their website).

 

A friend of mine has an Epi hollow body (might be a Sheraton, dunno for sure) and it came with the bridge pinned. I don't know about other Epi's.

 

But again, I hear no difference using double-sided tape on the bridge feet. Lots of discussion about this online on various forums and it appears many do it to their bridges.

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I have heard of some putting an ever so slight couple drops of glue under to keep it in place...the idea being to prevent damage by the bridge slipping, or that finish marring to that one particular place.

 

Personally, I wouldn't, even though I tend to be heavy-handed. But for the most part, I think for a lot of the types of music played on an arch-top as opposed to a solid-body or flat-top, one would be less likely to be heavy-handed with it.

 

But then again, something like a Gretsch is usually associated with being more "wild" that say, a Gibson. Maybe a ES-175 vs an L-5 as well. I have wondered at times if the anchor the bridges on Gretch's. (It would be cool to own one and know for sure that way).

 

I would add, as "wild" as I get at times with my Gibby, I haven't ever noticed an issue with the bridge slipping.

I DO qualify this with "I have heard of" as opposed to "I have done" or "I have known someone", in an effort to accurately reflect my experience or actual knowledge.

 

I make no recomendations or "advice" in this above post, but if one WERE to want to draw a conclusion, it should be obvious that what I am reflecting in my OWN experience is that I haven't done so and would likely not be suggesting that one do such. But rather, open up a discussion based on "what I have heard".

 

I would also add that the man I "heard" this from in regards to what others have done is a highly repected and EXPERIENCED dealer of vintage guitars, including arch-tops. He has been in business for many years (at least 25 that I have known of him) and has had and sold a LOT of vintage guitars, as that is his specialty. He is also not a guy that spreads rumors or invents information, but rather is honest, accurate, and reliable on his information in general and what he knows or doesn't know, but happens to be very knowledgeable.

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Many people try to play jazz guitars with Rock & Roll strings. These guitar were not designed to be strung with 9's, or 10's (or even 8's or 11's, haven't I read somewhere that Nuge uses 7's).

 

If strung properly with 12's, 13's or 14's, there is no way in hell you're going to move the bridge while playing!

 

If you NEED to play a guitar with LIGHT gauge strings, DO NOT chose and archtop with a floating bridge!

 

And if you don't think double-side tape affects the vibration transfer between the strings and the SOUNDBOARD, just look under the hood of your car for the "motor mounts"!

Not picking on you (I have a great deal of respect and admiration for for your efforts and playing), but I have to address this.

 

Archtops are considered "Jazz" guitars and it is true when they were designed that what are considered "heavy" strings by many today were the norm. But I also think that arch-top guitars are under-rated and not really understood or appreciated like they could be.

 

Not everyone can afford a lot of arch-tops, and perhaps spending 10k or so for an L-5 when an LP would do the trick might be seem as a waste, BUT that doesn't mean that using an L-5 as a rock machine and stringing it with 9's wouldn't be a worthwhile endeaver. There is a LOT of tone and qualities built into the construction of a Gibson arch-top that a lot of poeple aren't lucky or priveledged to experience.

 

I'm lucky to have an L-7c, and while I don't use 9's or feel the need to, this guitar absolutely excells at things and responds to different situations that even I wouldn't think it needed to, to the point I can't help myself. Like the time a buddy brought a '57 Bassman amp to my house, this guitar just wanted to rock out with a level of beef and tone that made turning down a futile effort. And I also find myself playing gnarly, dirty Blues on the back porch with it instead of my "usual" blues-type hog flat-top quite often-it's one of my "best" accoustics even though it has pick-ups in it. It's crazy how much there is in that one guitar.

 

I "get" that there are some guitars that are better suited to some things than other guitars, OR that there are some who get great reslts thinking out-side the "box" (lol) such as some getting great Jazz tones from guitars like Tele's and other solid-bodies or semi-hollow like the 335. But given the chance, I would bet that there are MORE reasons and versatiliy in a typical arch-top than what a guy might get from something like a 335 or a Fender.

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Let me just point out that I did start my recommendation with "Unless you have a Bigsby..."

 

There are circumstances that will make you feel the need to secure the bridge base to the top. If that happens, then do what it takes to fix it. Bigsby-equipped Gretsches are notorious for having wandering bridges, for which a common recommendation is gluing sandpaper to the bottom of the bridge base. I've owned several Gretsches with Bigsbys and never had a problem with them (other than that they were Gretsches) but maybe I didn't abuse them enough.

 

In the 53 years I've been playing archtops, I've never felt the need to secure the bridge. When I play rock, I do it on an ES-355 or CS-356 or Johnny A, so I don't have to worry about it.

 

My complete recommendation is "Don't do it unless you have a problem." Attaching the bridge doesn't provide any benefit if the bridge isn't walking and if the bridge is walking, the other arguments become moot.

 

Danny W.

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It can be safely assumed that when you play an ES-175, your guitar heroes are not Ted Nugent nor Brian Setzer but more Joe Pass, Herb Ellis, Wes Montgomery, Barney Kessel, Kenny Burrell, Pat Metheny, George Benson, Russell Malone, Peter Bernstein and a pantheon of jazz guitar artists all of whom "DO NOT PIN, GLUE, TAPE OR OTHERWISE PERMANENTLY FASTEN THE BRIDGE BASE TO AN ARCHTOP GUITAR IN ANY WAY". And neither does Steve Howe!

 

If you're a jazz guitarist, don' take advice from a rock or rockabilly guitarist. Pinning, gluing, taping or otherwise permanently fastening the bridge base to your archtop is not in the best interest of the instrument nor its sound.

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"..other than they were Gretschs'..." That's funny.

 

I would be a little afraid of using sandpaper...seems like if it DID slip with that, it would cause more damage than a lot of other solutions. But then again, at least it would sand the top with the contour of the bridge to keep the fit good.

 

That's a JOKE, btw.

 

Really though, I have the glued sandpaper trick on at least one of my Strats to keep the neck from moving. It does solve the problem where there was one.

 

GOOD advice that if there IS no problem, there is no reason to need a solution or to solve it. Personally, I would be more likely to want to keep options of changing bridges or trying different ones if I could rather than making that more difficult. (Something else to consider before "pinning" the bridge).

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Let me just point out that I did start my recommendation with "Unless you have a Bigsby..."

 

There are circumstances that will make you feel the need to secure the bridge base to the top. If that happens, then do what it takes to fix it. Bigsby-equipped Gretsches are notorious for having wandering bridges, for which a common recommendation is gluing sandpaper to the bottom of the bridge base. I've owned several Gretsches with Bigsbys and never had a problem with them (other than that they were Gretsches) but maybe I didn't abuse them enough.

 

In the 53 years I've been playing archtops, I've never felt the need to secure the bridge. When I play rock, I do it on an ES-355 or CS-356 or Johnny A, so I don't have to worry about it.

 

My complete recommendation is "Don't do it unless you have a problem." Attaching the bridge doesn't provide any benefit if the bridge isn't walking and if the bridge is walking, the other arguments become moot.

 

Danny W.

 

And Danny W. nails it. And he's been playing far far longer than I, so what do I know? Listen to Danny W.; don't listen to me.

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Well...I sometimes tune my Es175 in open D and with my bottle neck I get very swampy sound...not jazzy at all :), anyway I always prefered my strings as fat as possible tbh. I am a sculpture, I work with heavy stone. my hands, fingers are really hard and strong and if I play with 10 it feels like elastic and I am scared to play. Also in standard tuning I play mainly blues (90% of the time) no bigsby...but the ES175 suits my styl very well.

Now I have 12's on it, and when I am back from holiday I go to a luthier to give it a good setup and I will tell him, the next set of strings will be 13. Anyway, I like the discusion, here, there is a lot to say about that bridge :) I will leave it lose, with 12 or 13 it will go nowhere.

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It can be safely assumed that when you play an ES-175, your guitar heroes are not Ted Nugent nor Brian Setzer but more Joe Pass, Herb Ellis, Wes Montgomery, Barney Kessel, Kenny Burrell, Pat Metheny, George Benson, Russell Malone, Peter Bernstein and a pantheon of jazz guitar artists all of whom "DO NOT PIN, GLUE, TAPE OR OTHERWISE PERMANENTLY FASTEN THE BRIDGE BASE TO AN ARCHTOP GUITAR IN ANY WAY". And neither does Steve Howe!

 

If you're a jazz guitarist, don' take advice from a rock or rockabilly guitarist. Pinning, gluing, taping or otherwise permanently fastening the bridge base to your archtop is not in the best interest of the instrument nor its sound.

That's a good point...a "Jazz" guitarist is likely to have better advice for using your guitar for Jazz.

 

In the same way, if you WERE having your bridge moving all over the place and you were thumping some heavy stuff to to it, you might be interested in what, say, George Theroughgood (wrong spelling..no disrespect intented) might experience and do about it.

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Well...I sometimes tune my Es175 in open D and with my bottle neck I get very swampy sound...not jazzy at all :), anyway I always prefered my strings as fat as possible tbh. I am a sculpture, I work with heavy stone. my hands, fingers are really hard and strong and if I play with 10 it feels like elastic and I am scared to play. Also in standard tuning I play mainly blues (90% of the time) no bigsby...but the ES175 suits my styl very well.

Now I have 12's on it, and when I am back from holiday I go to a luthier to give it a good setup and I will tell him, the next set of strings will be 13. Anyway, I like the discusion, here, there is a lot to say about that bridge :) I will leave it lose, with 12 or 13 it will go nowhere.

Even though a lot of "blues" guitarist don't use a 175, it sounds like a GREAT idea and axe for such usage.

 

You have style, my man.

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It can be safely assumed that when you play an ES-175, your guitar heroes are not Ted Nugent nor Brian Setzer but more Joe Pass, Herb Ellis, Wes Montgomery, Barney Kessel, Kenny Burrell, Pat Metheny, George Benson, Russell Malone, Peter Bernstein and a pantheon of jazz guitar artists all of whom "DO NOT PIN, GLUE, TAPE OR OTHERWISE PERMANENTLY FASTEN THE BRIDGE BASE TO AN ARCHTOP GUITAR IN ANY WAY". And neither does Steve Howe!

 

If you're a jazz guitarist, don' take advice from a rock or rockabilly guitarist. Pinning, gluing, taping or otherwise permanently fastening the bridge base to your archtop is not in the best interest of the instrument nor its sound.

lol, I play some Jazz .... but it is blues inspired Jazzy stuff. I just wanted a big fat ES175 looking guitar. If there was a L4 in the store and not a ES175...I also could have bought that. I am very impulsive. Anyway, you will not see me Pete-Towsend-wind-milling but I sure pick my strings hard.

Brian Setzer...hahaha, man I admire that guy! The Es175 sound just the way I want it to sound, the 2 humbuckers make it possible to choose more than just the smooth low jazz sound. I am sure the bridge will not move with 13 on it.

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That's a good point...a "Jazz" guitarist is likely to have better advice for using your guitar for Jazz.

 

In the same way, if you WERE having your bridge moving all over the place and you were thumping some heavy stuff to to it, you might be interested in what, say, George Theroughgood (wrong spelling..no disrespect intented) might experience and do about it.

 

You might also be using the wrong axe for the job. Try a semi-hollow or a Gretsch (with trestle bracing and a pinned bridge base and Bigsby) [rolleyes]

 

Using 10s or even 11s on an ES-175 is just plain wrong, regardless of genre. There isn't enough mass to drive the top. You may as well play a semi-hollow or a solid top...unless you're doing it for "style", the shallowest excuse ever for playing an archtop. You could do it certainly but why?

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You might also be using the wrong axe for the job. Try a semi-hollow or a Gretsch (with a trestle bridge and a pinned bridge base and Bigsby) [rolleyes]

 

Using 10s or even 11s on an ES-175 is just plain wrong, regardless of genre. There isn't enough mass to drive the top. You may as well play a semi-hollow or a solid top...unless you're doing it for "style", the shallowest excuse ever for playing an archtop. You could do it certainly but why?

Dig...if I am going to Mcdonalds drive though, if I have a choice I am going to do it with a Cadillac rather than a Toyota. You don't have to use it for nothing but fine dining to justify it.

 

Furthermore, if someone cringes at the fact I am spilling fries in a Caddy, I am still going to spill my fries in a Caddy rather than a Toyota. That's just the way it is. So in that way, "style" might not be what others think or be done for the benifit of others, but yet if it is on display, some things you can't deny regardless of opinion.

 

One guy might say (you, for example) that a -175 HAS to be played with 12's or higher to be worthwhile, but what about a guy who just can't get the most of his own playing using heavy strings? Does that mean he shouldn't be playing a -175? Maybe a -175 is far better than an LP for this guy who likes 9's (obviously, not our ELMER). I can see a lot of things about a -175 that would be worthwhile over the "proper" guitar, especially for Blues.

 

Having STYLE don't mean shallow. Not even in Jazz. I submit Cannonball and Horace Silver as examples.

 

I can take this as deep as you want to today. My baby offered Salmon or Fried Chicken, and I can't decide.

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You might also be using the wrong axe for the job. Try a semi-hollow or a Gretsch (with a trestle bridge and a pinned bridge base and Bigsby) [rolleyes]

 

Using 10s or even 11s on an ES-175 is just plain wrong, regardless of genre. There isn't enough mass to drive the top. You may as well play a semi-hollow or a solid top...unless you're doing it for "style", the shallowest excuse ever for playing an archtop. You could do it certainly but why?

 

Here's a photo of my band in 1969. While we sometimes did jazz gigs or some jazz numbers, this photo was definitely not at one of those gigs. My other guitar player always seemed to do a fine job with his ES-175, even when we were playing over-the-top-loud music.

 

I'm pretty sure he was using 12's or 13's, though.

 

The guitar I was playing doesn't belong in this forum [laugh]

 

I had a beautiful '90's Byrdland that came to me strung with 9's or 10's. Normally I would change these immediately, but it really did make a great blues guitar with the short scale and skinny strings, so I left them on it. Despite the super low tension, it sounded great, although it was a bear to keep in tune.

 

8861a56e.jpg

 

Danny W.

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Here's a photo of my band in 1969. While we sometimes did jazz gigs or some jazz numbers, this photo was definitely not at one of those gigs. My other guitar player always seemed to do a fine job with his ES-175, even when we were playing over-the-top-loud music.

 

I'm pretty sure he was using 12's or 13's, though.

 

The guitar I was playing doesn't belong in this forum [laugh]

 

I had a beautiful '90's Byrdland that came to me strung with 9's or 10's. Normally I would change these immediately, but it really did make a great blues guitar with the short scale and skinny strings, so I left them on it. Despite the super low tension, it sounded great, although it was a bear to keep in tune.

 

8861a56e.jpg

 

Danny W.

 

 

Danny, you are my guitar hero: still doing it almost 45 years later.

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I stand corrected, Danny.

 

Gotta love a "purist" like me. I just don't know when to shut up.

 

(Since I can't get the multiquote feature to work for me, I'm going to post these separately--sorry)

 

I personally prefer the right tool for the job, so I don't use my "jazz guitars" for rock gigs myself. That being said, my big band does rock charts when we play dances and I'm too lazy these days to use two guitars, which means I play it on an L-5CES.

 

Danny W.

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haha, as I said, I love this discusion.

 

==> never the les a cool guitar!

 

I had that Jaguar for about six years and used it for a wide variety of music, including jazz. It's the only Fender I ever gigged with and I did about 1000 gigs with it.

 

You can learn more about this part of my life (and certainly more than you ever wanted to know) here:

 

My link

 

Danny W.

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