ParlourMan Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 to reiterate.... happy with my guitars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 The level of automation at Gibson is qualitatively closer to that at small manufacturers, such as Santa Cruz and Collings, than to that at Taylor. Another way of looking at it is in terms of the number of person-hours invested in building each guitar. Based on the latest numbers I've heard, the Taylor-to-Gibson ratio is pretty similar to the Gibson-to-Santa Cruz ratio. (But, of course, these things are constantly changing in an age when even one-person shops are adding CNC machines.) Get out, take some tours, and see for yourselves, folks! A video can make the process look as automated or as traditional as the videographer feels like. When you actually walk the floor, you see what's really going on in these places. -- Bob R The degree of automation strikes me as just about right. Some of this equipment even came from Kalamazoo. Jigs and tooling make for higher product consistency, but it's still a human making the decisions and doing the detail work. Frankly, task specialization is one way to get better quality. It's just like playing the guitar: the more you practice a style, the better you get at it. Doesn't it make sense to have only one or two guys spraying the bursts? Can you imagine how much skill that takes to do perfectly, every time? If people stay in their jobs at Bozeman, somebody is doing something right there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merseybeat1963 Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 A musician asking for what he wants or thinks is best is not "knocking".. Eliminate that voice and all you will have left is the voice of management implementing compromises for profit. Bob Taylor mfg seems to have not a human being in sight... Rickenbackers guitars are almost totally machine made..(Im glad I have 2 good ones & wonder if the new are as good) The wood comes in & is a guitar by the end of the day aprox. Lowden .. I only saw one machine in that video. Hofner making the Violin Bass...there was a lot of freehand work there..an alarming amount it seemed to me after seeing the Gibson Tour Juan posted (.ie How about if they miss?) Hofner was about the level of this old video of Fender in 1959. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsr-0-k54TU I wonder if there are pictures of Gibson's & Martin's workshoppes from the years they're Golden Era acoustic/arch guitars were made (20's-30's) Im sure not one guy at a bench but I think 25 guys at benches but not exactly assembly line. A few owners ..no stock holders burdening the product with dead weight..ahhh...those were the days : ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry K Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Martin in 1939. Bozeman looks just like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry K Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Bozeman: Scraping the lacquer off the binding with a microscope slide: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merseybeat1963 Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 No disputing that at all, seen videoes of both.... however I still say "handbuilt" is loosely applied.... not that I'm *****ing, very happy with my guitars, but having seen the level of machinery involved I'd always be more inclined to lean towards 'manufactured' Vs 'handbuilt', comparison percentages can't derail the fact there's a lot of 'not very handbuilt' in play too. I think I remember you are from UK....? if this is be so, you would be a very good judge of what handmade looks like. The Uk is like the home of traditional handwork. From faucet taps..cabinet making..clock making..silver work..shoes..leather work..stone carving..decorative plaster work..hand blocked Wallpaper..I mean even handmade automobiles (Morgan). We bought a sofa made in England..though we could not manage the fully traditional one, the guy will do it all hand tacked & hand sewn...filled with horse tail which is like indestructable..hand tied individual springs everywhere..and hand dye the sofa after its done. We needed the thing to fit up a narrow stairway..they made it to the depth,length & height we needed..to the inch ...here that is virtually impossible. At a local furniture place we know the owner, he told me an English upholsterer came over to advise on some work & the upholsterers here were saying they needed the patterns,he told them there are no patterns, he does it by eye to suit the piece. For the most part when they say handmade in the UK its handmade. God Bless them(And us too..but we need more of that.. : ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modoc_333 Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Why do people keep mentioning stock holders? There aren't any with Gibson. Just saying..... after that, I have to say that this stuff is all relative. If you hate seeing ANY CNC machine, do you also hate ANY power tool? should they use hand drills instead of power drills? sanders? etc? There is a line, sure, but we have to be careful. It's easy to sit on the internet and dream up some "ideal". I don't think the Steinway comparison is a fair one when talking guitars either. Do you really want a guitar to have a similar relative cost? Of course not. Not the same. I also have to stick up for Taylor here. I am in no way a fan of their sound. I don't see myself ever falling in love with one.... but to say there are no people around working on their guitars is absolutely false. I spent this week in San Diego with them. I was in the factory wandering around. Not just on a tour, I had freedom to wander as I pleased, when I pleased. I was shocked at how many people work there. Sure, there are A LOT of machines... but there are plenty of people doing hand work too. It's not Bozeman, but it's unfair to say that a human never touches them. In fact, here are the numbers: they have 368 people working the floor in El Cajon producing ~170 guitars per day. This is actually more workers per guitar than in Bozeman. So, yes, Bozeman does more things by hand, but you have to be accurate about things. Taylor has people building guitars too... and not just running CNC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EuroAussie Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Two thoughts come to mind from reading this thread. 1) Could Gibson create their guitars the Taylor way (highly automated)and still retain the tone and looks of Gibson. 2) If a Gibson fan/ player took on one of these corporate jobs I wonder their passion or the brand would diminish once started work on 'business' side of the coin. Like having to report and deal with Henry .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParlourMan Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Two thoughts come to mind from reading this thread. 1) Could Gibson create their guitars the Taylor way (highly automated)and still retain the tone and looks of Gibson. 2) If a Gibson fan/ player took on one of these corporate jobs I wonder their passion or the brand would diminish once started work on 'business' side of the coin. Like having to report and deal with Henry .. 1) I don't see why not, they're made to a recipe after all, just like Taylors but different. (Would certainly tackle the 'inconsistency' label and the 'have to try one before you buy it' snippet we see so often) 1B) Would probably require a huge investment, new factory etc... from what we've seen and been told here it's a small setup there. 2) Almost anyone who works at their passion sees it become 'just a job' over time, without adding factors which might make it even more difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruffchris Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 2) Almost anyone who works at their passion sees it become 'just a job' over time, without adding factors which might make it even more difficult. So true, what is that all about? maybe it's the "instant" culture we live in, that leads to this? But I think if you are a fan and in a position to do something,i.e the big boss, then with out looking at the books it's too hard to say what that will be. Lets go back to all hand made, and either lose customers over price, or lose money on all the extra staff, or make less guitars and not be able to pay for the staff. I just think it ain't cut and dry. The only thing that should matter is are the customers happy with there guitars, not how its made. One thing I have noticed from being on the forums, is the hate for gibsons(nobody here), is that cause they were rubbish in the 70/80's? Cause I haven't played loads of gibsons, maybe I've been lucky not to pick up a dud? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 2) Almost anyone who works at their passion sees it become 'just a job' over time, without adding factors which might make it even more difficult. You are absolutely correct there, but at least you get to stay in contact with your passion. I'm very fortunate in that I took one of those forks in the road some 35 years ago, and decided that following my passion (boats) was more important than making large sums of money. Yes, there are plenty of times when it is just a job, but in my case it is "just a job" being around the things I love. It has given me opportunities to do the things I love, and get paid for it at the same time. That's hard to beat. Certainly you can lose perspective about your passion when it becomes your work, but at least in my case, it has been a fair trade-off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParlourMan Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 No questions there, I can only wish I did work in something that I do for love rather than for money, I'm destined to be a wage slave I guess... I've always reasoned that it's a necessary part of my day to pay for my 'real life' outside, nothing more really... I'm handy at what I do but it's certainly no labour of love. As you've said though the labour of love often comes with less money, which is fine, so long as you have the love, but I can imagine working in guitars at corporation level ceases to be about guitars to all but the few, the language of passion and beauty is for the marketing dept, the language of units produced, supplies procured and an ever increasing demands being surpassed whilst managing efficiencies at every level probably knocks the passion out of most, except the accountants of course :D While I may be as keen as the next man to wax lyrical on here about the delights of my latest Bozeman created acquisition, I'd still say its a manufacturing facility over anything and the people who work there are as likely to have an off day as anyone, likelier than some if the draconian tales of dealing with Henry have any factual basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry K Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 While I may be as keen as the next man to wax lyrical on here about the delights of my latest Bozeman created acquisition, I'd still say its a manufacturing facility over anything and the people who work there are as likely to have an off day as anyone, likelier than some if the draconian tales of dealing with Henry have any factual basis. The CEO does not live in Bozeman. He interacts with the General Manager of the Bozeman division and a few others. Bozeman is a small part of his business. The people working on the assembly line do not report to the CEO. (Duh!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahune Posted July 22, 2012 Author Share Posted July 22, 2012 . Regardless of how big of a part Bozeman is in Gibson's overall business, Henry would certainly know what's going on there. Although I can't speak to their accuracy, I recall posts here and on other forums that alleged some kind of conflict going on between Henry and Ren that resulted in Ren retiring from Gibson and taking a position with FMIC. I've often wondered if Gibson tried to retain Ren in some capacity (I understand he still lives in Bozeman). . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry K Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 . Although I can't speak to their accuracy, I recall posts here and on other forums that alleged some kind of conflict going on between Henry and Ren that resulted in Ren retiring from Gibson and taking a position with FMIC. . Nope, that's not what happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merseybeat1963 Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 What did happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rar Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 What did happen? If Ren wanted everybody on the forum to know the story, I expect he'd post it here. Suffice it to say that Jerry is right. Henry didn't even know Ren was leaving until after it was a done deal. By the time Henry found out, Ren had already received and accepted the offer from Fender. -- Bob R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merseybeat1963 Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 If Ren wanted everybody on the forum to know the story, I expect he'd post it here. Suffice it to say that Jerry is right. Henry didn't even know Ren was leaving until after it was a done deal. By the time Henry found out, Ren had already received and accepted the offer from Fender. -- Bob R Thanks : ) By any small chance would you know of anyone who has pictures of the very first Bozeman Acoustic guitars displayed at NAMM in January 1989 ? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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