Dennis G Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Saw this on the MLP forum: http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2012/07/20/why-fender-pulled-its-ipo/?hpt=hp_c3 I'm thinking "poor market conditions" is their response to the lukewarm reception the investment community was giving this in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Californiaman Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Considering the size of the company and all the different divisions, I'd say it's tough out there in the music industry at this time. Of course you know Leo Fender didn't build that company. The government did. You and I and everybody else had a hand in it. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riffster Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Laugh now, cry later. Joe the Plumber part deux. There was a big buzz about figure discrepancies on FMIC Financials in the forum communities, not.a.good.thing when you are asking people to bet on your company, then there is the Facebook IPO fiasco, worst possible timing for Fender. Fender is going to be hurting soon, people don't want to pay more than a few hundred for their guitars and even that market is looking at copies or building their own. The very thing that made Fenders sale-able for years is what will get the company in trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malchik Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 I can see Fender's Mexican market hurting them financially. It's hard for Fender USA to compete with Mexican labor, especially when they churn-out such good budget models. I have a lot of respect for Fender, so I hope they can work out a better business model without disbanding the franchise name to other companies, or at the very least, compromise their products like back in the CBS years. I haven't pickup up a bad Fender in years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluesguitar65 Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 This pretty much sums it up: Some Fender purists may be thrilled that the company shelved its IPO. "I say scoop up as many Fenders as you can now, regardless of year and country of construction, because after the IPO, they are never going to match that quality again," said one commenter on an online Fender forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malchik Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 I still need a strat and precision bass, so I better count my pennies and buy them. Though, I doubt an immediate decline in quality will take place over night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retrosurfer1959 Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Sorry in advance for a way to long of post but this is a big topic right now so I kind climbed up on a few soap boxes if it's too much feel free to ignore or skip it. Fender has a horrible business model and no way to survive long term without major changes. There a constant money loser for the investment firm that owns a large percentage of Fenders valuation. Fender has 20% of it's market in Europe which is dropping rapidly and there main distribution chain is GC which is a bankruptcy just waiting to happen any day now. When GC files for bankruptcy and it will. And then Amazon and other huge internet chains have to collect and pay taxes which is a year maybe two at the most away for most states as well as the national level Fender will be lucky to survive without a major change and restructuring to a much smaller company focusing on niche markets in their business plan. It's not always best to be the biggest company in a market that's drying up very fast. Were gonna see the death of all the large guitar companies in the next 10 years since Kids don't play in bands anymore now they create music in garageband or other computer programs and create music like a video game which is there cultural preference now. They sit alone as live and share things in a virtual world. When I was young I spent most of my free time playing in a band somebodies garage while our girlfriends watched it was the largest part of my free time with school sports being the only thing that I spent more time at. All that's gone even kids that do want to play guitar which are fairly rare now do it alone over a webcam and without amateur players and kids in bands with friends the musical instrument industry is dying if not dead. Small luthiers building for the needs of professionals and wealthy hobbyists will be all that survives the new electronic music toys hat have now become instruments and will soon become a industry. Don't believe me go into any guitar center and look for all the kids playing loud and badly that used to be the norm. I rarely see kids anymore even in the store. Nope now you see a little clump of salesman staring in a corner talking crap while a tattooed girl texts her friends or does homework sitting at the front counter in a almost empty store with a few middle age guys walking around looking at stuff and maybe one or two serious customers. Think about the last time you had to stand in line to purchase something it just does't happen anymore. we have several big stores four at leas that were crowded madhouses a few years back now there ghost towns with a very reduced staff that still usually outnumbers the customers. looks exactly like the big bookstores did a few years ago before they all disappeared. Guitars had a good run but it's pretty much over. And drums are even worse I was in Guitar center today and I spent ten minutes in a huge drum room completely alone buying some sticks there wasn't even a salesman in there just me wandering around picking out what I wanted and taking it up front jus like a grocery store. It's not all bad news though if nothing else the hard times slowed us all down and shrunk the world a bit which it needed in my opinion and the worlds rushing backwards in some ways the big money companies and policies of a few years ago are almost dead. I even see it in my own industry of the art world. I have three novels in the final stages of being cleanup and post production for release. Only one is being printed in a normal manner for distribution to the mass market stores. And it will probably be my last published and printed novel. There just too many hands that need to make money on it in the publishing world so as the writer it barely makes me any money unless it takes off like Harry Potter or Twilight and if it get's hidden behind someone else's release I'll make almost nothing and that's with a great agent most authors today lose money. I'm in a writer co-op with 10 other writers and only two of us will have a traditional printed book out this nest year. all the rest will be sell publishing directly to the digital world of E-book and sadly I'll make more money on the two I self-publish than on the one that goes to mass market distribution as they say. It's sad because it's a whole lot more exciting to have a book printed and have book signings etc. Then released electronically but in regards to profit it's not even close anymore. The other big growth market is goods trading I just finished a set of wedding rings for a nice young couple and instead of going to a store or a gallery and paying double or triple, He's gonna pick them up next week. And instead of a paycheck or commission as there called in the art world I'm getting a power wash and stripping and then complete painting of the huge wrap around deck on the log cabin I just bought as well as an extension to the deck off the master bedroom. I will get a fair value for my work and so will he, so rather than both of us having to do three times as much work to pay somebody the trade will give us both exactly what we wanted or needed with very little overhead. The couple got the stones for her ring a relative who gave them a very outdated set of rings that they hated but now they love the one of a kind custom rings and I love my gorgeous new deck with all kinds of extra's like recessed lights and planter boxes all made from great old wood he got in exchange for painting a guys's house and he got to dismantle and keep a great old barn for his pay. And momma that donated the rings had some other jewelry she didn't like and she wanted something fun and one of a kind so her's will be done next week and for that my pay will be a custom built propane fired Kiln and fire pit for the house and a great old rebuilt 1950's small fishing boat and trailer that is restored better than when it was new and I probably couldn't buy if I wanted to. In that case we each paid for the material needed and were just swapping labor. He liked the jewelry so much though, I got a bonus even, I got three chickens and a small really cool chicken coop to keep the critters from eating my chickens and 50 pounds of Elk meat in the freezer. And when they delivered the chickens she saw my peach tree was overflowing with peaches more than I could ever use so another trade she called a friend who came over and picked every Peach off my tree as well as the plums on the tree next to it. She disappeared and three day's later I have 14 large jars of peach preserves and 6 smaller jars of the best plum jelly I've ever had. that was about 20% of the overall take she got which is more than fair since in the past i paid a landscaper to haul off 90 percent of the fruit before it rotted and drew flies. Now she has plans on my tomatoes and is checking them every other day and personally I can't wait she supposedly makes a killer spaghetti sauce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveinspain Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Sorry in advance for a way to long of post but this is a big topic right now so I kind climbed up on a few soap boxes if it's too much feel free to ignore or skip it. Fender has a horrible business model and no way to survive long term without major changes. There a constant money loser for the investment firm that owns a large percentage of Fenders valuation. Fender has 20% of it's market in Europe which is dropping rapidly and there main distribution chain is GC which is a bankruptcy just waiting to happen any day now. When GC files for bankruptcy and it will. And then Amazon and other huge internet chains have to collect and pay taxes which is a year maybe two at the most away for most states as well as the national level Fender will be lucky to survive without a major change and restructuring to a much smaller company focusing on niche markets in their business plan. It's not always best to be the biggest company in a market that's drying up very fast. Were gonna see the death of all the large guitar companies in the next 10 years since Kids don't play in bands anymore now they create music in garageband or other computer programs and create music like a video game which is there cultural preference now. They sit alone as live and share things in a virtual world. When I was young I spent most of my free time playing in a band somebodies garage while our girlfriends watched it was the largest part of my free time with school sports being the only thing that I spent more time at. All that's gone even kids that do want to play guitar which are fairly rare now do it alone over a webcam and without amateur players and kids in bands with friends the musical instrument industry is dying if not dead. Small luthiers building for the needs of professionals and wealthy hobbyists will be all that survives the new electronic music toys hat have now become instruments and will soon become a industry. Don't believe me go into any guitar center and look for all the kids playing loud and badly that used to be the norm. I rarely see kids anymore even in the store. Nope now you see a little clump of salesman staring in a corner talking crap while a tattooed girl texts her friends or does homework sitting at the front counter in a almost empty store with a few middle age guys walking around looking at stuff and maybe one or two serious customers. Think about the last time you had to stand in line to purchase something it just does't happen anymore. we have several big stores four at leas that were crowded madhouses a few years back now there ghost towns with a very reduced staff that still usually outnumbers the customers. looks exactly like the big bookstores did a few years ago before they all disappeared. Guitars had a good run but it's pretty much over. And drums are even worse I was in Guitar center today and I spent ten minutes in a huge drum room completely alone buying some sticks there wasn't even a salesman in there just me wandering around picking out what I wanted and taking it up front jus like a grocery store. It's not all bad news though if nothing else the hard times slowed us all down and shrunk the world a bit which it needed in my opinion and the worlds rushing backwards in some ways the big money companies and policies of a few years ago are almost dead. I even see it in my own industry of the art world. I have three novels in the final stages of being cleanup and post production for release. Only one is being printed in a normal manner for distribution to the mass market stores. And it will probably be my last published and printed novel. There just too many hands that need to make money on it in the publishing world so as the writer it barely makes me any money unless it takes off like Harry Potter or Twilight and if it get's hidden behind someone else's release I'll make almost nothing and that's with a great agent most authors today lose money. I'm in a writer co-op with 10 other writers and only two of us will have a traditional printed book out this nest year. all the rest will be sell publishing directly to the digital world of E-book and sadly I'll make more money on the two I self-publish than on the one that goes to mass market distribution as they say. It's sad because it's a whole lot more exciting to have a book printed and have book signings etc. Then released electronically but in regards to profit it's not even close anymore. The other big growth market is goods trading I just finished a set of wedding rings for a nice young couple and instead of going to a store or a gallery and paying double or triple, He's gonna pick them up next week. And instead of a paycheck or commission as there called in the art world I'm getting a power wash and stripping and then complete painting of the huge wrap around deck on the log cabin I just bought as well as an extension to the deck off the master bedroom. I will get a fair value for my work and so will he, so rather than both of us having to do three times as much work to pay somebody the trade will give us both exactly what we wanted or needed with very little overhead. The couple got the stones for her ring a relative who gave them a very outdated set of rings that they hated but now they love the one of a kind custom rings and I love my gorgeous new deck with all kinds of extra's like recessed lights and planter boxes all made from great old wood he got in exchange for painting a guys's house and he got to dismantle and keep a great old barn for his pay. And momma that donated the rings had some other jewelry she didn't like and she wanted something fun and one of a kind so her's will be done next week and for that my pay will be a custom built propane fired Kiln and fire pit for the house and a great old rebuilt 1950's small fishing boat and trailer that is restored better than when it was new and I probably couldn't buy if I wanted to. In that case we each paid for the material needed and were just swapping labor. He liked the jewelry so much though, I got a bonus even, I got three chickens and a small really cool chicken coop to keep the critters from eating my chickens and 50 pounds of Elk meat in the freezer. And when they delivered the chickens she saw my peach tree was overflowing with peaches more than I could ever use so another trade she called a friend who came over and picked every Peach off my tree as well as the plums on the tree next to it. She disappeared and three day's later I have 14 large jars of peach preserves and 6 smaller jars of the best plum jelly I've ever had. that was about 20% of the overall take she got which is more than fair since in the past i paid a landscaper to haul off 90 percent of the fruit before it rotted and drew flies. Now she has plans on my tomatoes and is checking them every other day and personally I can't wait she supposedly makes a killer spaghetti sauce. What you say makes a lot of sense, kinda scary though... you see exactly the same thing happening in the music industry on all levels, record stores, distributors, recording studios all gone. I have my own studio at home but I wanted to record one of my tunes in a big pro studio and I couldn't find one. All the studios that used to record groups now just do jingles for radio and overdubs for film and TV. The only way you can make money in music now is if you can play out live and sell out venues. Successful bands of today used their music to promote their concert tours and don't really plan on making money on music sales. Who buys music now? The digital world is consuming everything just the way it did with camera film and analog recording tape. I had a gig last night with my band, as I looked out into the audience most of the people were older than me and I'm 56... There used to be tons of places to hear live music but it's too expensive to pay all the musicians. We have nine members in our band so making any money playing out live isn't even part of the equation. Last night we played for a free diner and love of music... Sad but true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G McBride Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Gibson was once available for around a million bucks or so. If Fender came available for a small and reasonable price, would you step up to own it? I think that I would because there are some changes that could be made and probably a little money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retrosurfer1959 Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Fender is a valuable brand still no doubt about it, they make a lot of money on t-shirts and other stuff which Gibson should do also but there not logical and try to sell 75 dollar t-shirts. Fender can survive if they redo the business model and downsize to a logical size and focus on core quality projects but they most likely won't they like be the biggest company way to much to be smart about it but a smart logical leadership team could most likely turn them around at least until all the guitar players that want a real instrument die off. The future of music is pushing buttons and reducing the old stuff into new rap and dance tunes. I don't even gig in a band any more it cost's money in most cases to do that about the only live music I do anymore is solo coffee house, small bar's and resort hotel bar's and pool area's. it's the only way to make any money anymore just me two loop pedals my Zen laptop midi drum set and a few guitars and I'm set. And at the end of the night I can leave with some money in my pocket and three hours of fun and new friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaleb Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Not to stray from the topic of Fender's business practices.... But GC will go bankrupt soon, the collectors will fall, and the mom-and-pop music store will rule again! Mark my words! Corporate chains that sell musical instruments bug me. Collectors that think any Burst is worth 150k (some of em' aren't worth the price of any run of the mill Les Paul, trust me. Cause' that's all they are! Just normal Les Pauls that happen to have nice wood, pickups, and the age factor. Oh, and EC, Page, Bloomfield, and Green used them....) bug me. Music stores that are independently owned and actually care about their customers are what I care about. Do Bursts really have to be that expensive? Collectors don't deserve those guitars: if they can't play the living crap outta them, they don't deserve them. There are kids that can't even afford a Mexican Strat but just happen to play like a mutha' that would love to have a really good 59'! But they can't, because of those damn collectors! The Bursts that were used to make the music we so love aren't as valuable as the music itself. There is no way the Beano Burst is as priceless as the Beano album! You can't just say, "Hey, if I get this 59' Les Paul and this 68' Plexi, I'll have a great tone". A really great Burst and a really great Plexi will make great tone if it's operated by the right hands, but it's more complicated than that. Jimmy Page could have played a little solidstate Marshall and the cheapest Les Paul Epiphone makes and still would have had a killer tone. You have to hear the tone you desire in your head first. That's my logic. I don't covet a Burst and an old Plexi cause' that's not the sound I hear in my head, although I'd still get a great tone that I would like out of that setup if I knew what I was doing.....There's a reason why great guitar players have a great tone that works: they like the sound of it, and that inspires their playing. Now, if you don't like the tone you are generating, said tone will sound like a bad tone even if it is a Burst and a Plexi.... Again, sorry for straying off the Fender business topic.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slavestate Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Not to stray from the topic of Fender's business practices.... But GC will go bankrupt soon, the collectors will fall, and the mom-and-pop music store will rule again! Mark my words! Corporate chains that sell musical instruments bug me. Collectors that think any Burst is worth 150k (some of em' aren't worth the price of any run of the mill Les Paul, trust me. Cause' that's all they are! Just normal Les Pauls that happen to have nice wood, pickups, and the age factor. Oh, and EC, Page, Bloomfield, and Green used them....) bug me. Music stores that are independently owned and actually care about their customers are what I care about. Do Bursts really have to be that expensive? Collectors don't deserve those guitars: if they can't play the living crap outta them, they don't deserve them. There are kids that can't even afford a Mexican Strat but just happen to play like a mutha' that would love to have a really good 59'! But they can't, because of those damn collectors! The Bursts that were used to make the music we so love aren't as valuable as the music itself. There is no way the Beano Burst is as priceless as the Beano album! You can't just say, "Hey, if I get this 59' Les Paul and this 68' Plexi, I'll have a great tone". A really great Burst and a really great Plexi will make great tone if it's operated by the right hands, but it's more complicated than that. Jimmy Page could have played a little solidstate Marshall and the cheapest Les Paul Epiphone makes and still would have had a killer tone. You have to hear the tone you desire in your head first. That's my logic. I don't covet a Burst and an old Plexi cause' that's not the sound I hear in my head, although I'd still get a great tone that I would like out of that setup if I knew what I was doing.....There's a reason why great guitar players have a great tone that works: they like the sound of it, and that inspires their playing. Now, if you don't like the tone you are generating, said tone will sound like a bad tone even if it is a Burst and a Plexi.... Again, sorry for straying off the Fender business topic.... [thumbup] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FenderGuy1 Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 I will step up to own Fender if they sell it for $2 haha. i would bring back the $300 price for Strats and Teles, and the quality of the 1950s to 70s, No machines, just hand made! and the Visitor center will have a "Play A Vintage Fender" Room where people can play Vintage fender guitars, through vintage Fender or Marshall Amps, No Metal guitarists allowed!!!, and i would introduce new models of guitars in unusual designs and unusual pickup shapes, new bridges, and the new models will have a range of colours, one will be rainbow! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaleb Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 I will step up to own Fender if they sell it for $2 haha. i would bring back the $300 price for Strats and Teles, and the quality of the 1950s to 70s, No machines, just hand made! and the Visitor center will have a "Play A Vintage Fender" Room where people can play Vintage fender guitars, through vintage Fender or Marshall Amps, No Metal guitarists allowed!!!, and i would introduce new models of guitars in unusual designs and unusual pickup shapes, new bridges, and the new models will have a range of colours, one will be rainbow! :) I hope you realize that's not possible..... What? No metal guitarists allowed? What ya' got against metal, bud? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retrosurfer1959 Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 I will step up to own Fender if they sell it for $2 haha. i would bring back the $300 price for Strats and Teles, and the quality of the 1950s to 70s, No machines, just hand made! and the Visitor center will have a "Play A Vintage Fender" Room where people can play Vintage fender guitars, through vintage Fender or Marshall Amps, No Metal guitarists allowed!!!, and i would introduce new models of guitars in unusual designs and unusual pickup shapes, new bridges, and the new models will have a range of colours, one will be rainbow! :) No comment keep dreaming someday one of them might actually make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaleb Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 No comment kep dreaming someday one of them might actually make sense. Thank you! Oh, FG1, the old Fenders were made on machines too.... It's called mass-production...... For all my Fendery needs I either buy used or go to Nash guitars! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retrosurfer1959 Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Not to stray from the topic of Fender's business practices.... But GC will go bankrupt soon, the collectors will fall, and the mom-and-pop music store will rule again! Mark my words! Corporate chains that sell musical instruments bug me. Collectors that think any Burst is worth 150k (some of em' aren't worth the price of any run of the mill Les Paul, trust me. Cause' that's all they are! Just normal Les Pauls that happen to have nice wood, pickups, and the age factor. Oh, and EC, Page, Bloomfield, and Green used them....) bug me. Music stores that are independently owned and actually care about their customers are what I care about. Do Bursts really have to be that expensive? Collectors don't deserve those guitars: if they can't play the living crap outta them, they don't deserve them. There are kids that can't even afford a Mexican Strat but just happen to play like a mutha' that would love to have a really good 59'! But they can't, because of those damn collectors! The Bursts that were used to make the music we so love aren't as valuable as the music itself. There is no way the Beano Burst is as priceless as the Beano album! You can't just say, "Hey, if I get this 59' Les Paul and this 68' Plexi, I'll have a great tone". A really great Burst and a really great Plexi will make great tone if it's operated by the right hands, but it's more complicated than that. Jimmy Page could have played a little solidstate Marshall and the cheapest Les Paul Epiphone makes and still would have had a killer tone. You have to hear the tone you desire in your head first. That's my logic. I don't covet a Burst and an old Plexi cause' that's not the sound I hear in my head, although I'd still get a great tone that I would like out of that setup if I knew what I was doing.....There's a reason why great guitar players have a great tone that works: they like the sound of it, and that inspires their playing. Now, if you don't like the tone you are generating, said tone will sound like a bad tone even if it is a Burst and a Plexi.... Again, sorry for straying off the Fender business topic.... That's just youth and inexperience speaking - not logic and not real world knowledge that you get from life not guitar forums. The collectors don't hurt guitar players the reverse is true collectors are what keep guitar companies profitable and going strong why do you think they cater so much to collects and signature it's where the profit is at. Trust me the Beano guitar is worth a **** load more than the Beano album because there's only one guitar and the album can be reproduced forever. Now the music itself that was created has more meaning true but the album nope. As for the mom and pops well sorry but your wrong again there even more so the day of mom and pop anything stores is pretty much over we live in the digital age and mom and pops hell almost any brick and mortar business can't compete with the Amazon model of a single click and it's yours in to days with free shipping. Pretty soon fresh food is about all you'll find in mom and pop style stores. And kids no matter how talented they are or perceive themselves to be don't deserve a 59 anymore than they deserve a Fancy Sports car or a Harley Davidson motorcycle or anything else in this world of young people and the strange feeling of entitlement youth brings with it. which isn't anything knew. I can remember as a teen wondering why it was always the old guys with cool sports cars and great motorcycle's and great guitars in their collection. and the answer is simple and just as true now as it was then. They earned them or at least they earned enough money to go buy them. Personally I'm all for the guitar collectors as you say there nothing really magical in a guitar even a old one. So isn't it better for a collector to own them and protect them and treasure them than some kid gigging with them? Seriously at least if a collector own one of them then they'll still be around 20 -50 or more years from now, while those same talented kids are trashing a half a dozen guitars on there way up the ranks of learning the craft of being a guitar player. Kids even if they can play "like a Mutha" as you say don't deserve a 59 they deserve a opportunity to bust there asses working until they can buy whatever instrument they want that's all they deserve the rest is just jealousy and again a weird sense of entitlement that today's kids seem to have. Mom and pop store's survived when people lived in neighborhoods and communities and were part of those communities. Are parents and this opus that are older can remember when you bought a home and lived there while you worked somewhere nearby and all your needs were serviced in a 20-50 mile radius. Now forget it the average expectancy for home ownership is 3-5 years the same life expectancy as a job. and the neighborhood is gone people don't stay anywhere long enough to care about their neighbors or local stores there life travels with them now so local small business are dead why should the music stores be any different than record stores, book stores, comic book shops, and all the other things people used to have as part of their community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FenderGuy1 Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 No comment kep dreaming someday one of them might actually make sense. it is true what i am going to do, and BTW Kaleb, the only thing i have against metal is their sound!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaleb Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 That's just youth and inexperience speaking - not logic and not real world knowledge that you get from life not guitar forums. The collectors don't hurt guitar players the reverse is true collectors are what keep guitar companies profitable and going strong why do you think they cater so much to collects and signature it's where the profit is at. Trust me the Beano guitar is worth a **** load more than the Beano album because there's only one guitar and the album can be reproduced forever. Now the music itself that was created has more meaning true but the album nope. As for the mom and pops well sorry but your wrong again there even more so the day of mom and pop anything stores is pretty much over we live in the digital age and mom and pops hell almost any brick and mortar business can't compete with the Amazon model of a single click and it's yours in to days with free shipping. Pretty soon fresh food is about all you'll find in mom and pop style stores. And kids no matter how talented they are or perceive themselves to be don't deserve a 59 anymore than they deserve a Fancy Sports car or a Harley Davidson motorcycle or anything else in this world of young people and the strange feeling of entitlement youth brings with it. which isn't anything knew. I can remember as a teen wondering why it was always the old guys with cool sports cars and great motorcycle's and great guitars in their collection. and the answer is simple and just as true now as it was then. They earned them or at least they earned enough money to go buy them. Personally I'm all for the guitar collectors as you say there nothing really magical in a guitar even a old one. So isn't it better for a collector to own them and protect them and treasure them than some kid gigging with them? Seriously at least if a collector own one of them then they'll still be around 20 -50 or more years from now, while those same talented kids are trashing a half a dozen guitars on there way up the ranks of learning the craft of being a guitar player. Kids even if they can play "like a Mutha" as you say don't deserve a 59 they deserve a opportunity to bust there asses working until they can buy whatever instrument they want that's all they deserve the rest is just jealousy and again a weird sense of entitlement that today's kids seem to have. Mom and pop store's survived when people lived in neighborhoods and communities and were part of those communities. Are parents and this opus that are older can remember when you bought a home and lived there while you worked somewhere nearby and all your needs were serviced in a 20-50 mile radius. Now forget it the average expectancy for home ownership is 3-5 years the same life expectancy as a job. and the neighborhood is gone people don't stay anywhere long enough to care about their neighbors or local stores there life travels with them now so local small business are dead why should the music stores be any different than record stores, book stores, comic book shops, and all the other things people used to have as part of their community. You completely missed the point. The collectors aren't ruining the guitar market; they ARE the guitar market. But I think guitars are supposed to be played no matter the vintage, not stuck in someone's home on a stand, in a case, or on display in a glass enclosure. I really respect the fact that bands/artists like Joe Bonamassa, Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers, AC/DC, The Stones, etc, take their vintage gear on the road. They got the right idea. Every guitar deserves to be played like that. The guitar companies catering to collectors are what's wrong with the guitar biz in the first place IMHO. If you disagree, that's fine, but there was a time when you could find old LP Jrs in pawn shops for less than $100. Maybe the collector thing is better for the big money, but great guitar tones were created due to stuff being priced low. A lot of those "cheap" (at the time) LP Jrs made their way to some of my favorite records of all time, including Savoy Brown's Street Corner Talkin'. Big money gets to me. Rush stated it already back in 1985. Geez. I am very well aware of the fact that the Beano Burst is worth way more than the Beano album. But which one is priceless? I'd rather have the record with all those great tunes on it rather than some piece of wood with strings that Slowhand doesn't even own anymore. He made that thing talk. Not the other way around. Mom-and-pop stores are better for this economy IMHO, and having a nice local, independently owned store is better than some corporate retail chain, and a lot of people would agree with me. Fresh food, and a place where guitar salesmen are dedicated to their work. As far as the digital age is concerned, I think technology and internet shopping is fine (I buy a lot of things from eBay and Craigslist), but there is no better way to find your new axe then to go to a nice guitar store and play the damn thing first. America has to get their a$es off the computer and realize that they're helping rid of a part of classic America. There are lots of guitar collectors that have a few Bursts but they refuse to put them through their paces and they can't play worth a damn anyways. On the other side of things, there are many people that are, financially, negatively affected by this economy that are just getting by with a decent job and playing bar gigs, but they are real great at the guitar and should be pro cause' they blow a lot of other "pros" off the stage. But they can't afford a 59' because their money has to be thrown at other things, beit food, family, payments, etc, yet they make their Epiphone LP sound like a million bucks. Last I checked, great players deserve the guitar they so desire, not the other way around. I'm sure many of us deserve a good Burst. Go figure. And I am definetly not implying that Bursts are the best guitars in the world, case' they're not. No guitar is. Those old Bursts used by our heroes were good guitars, but they were being used in the right hands. Some people need to get their heads out of their a$es and understand that. If a guy says a certain 70s Les Paul Deluxe that weighs 12.5 pounds and was modified for Dimarzios is the best guitar he's ever played and wipes out any Burst he's ever played, so beit. Collectors shouldn't decide what a great guitar is; the players should. After all, Eric, Peter, Jeff, Jimmy, Paul, and Michael are the reason we like Bursts, right? I said it before and I'll say it again: MOM-AND-POP-STORES ARE GOING TO MAKE A COMEBACK! Sorry if you can't accept it. The corporations are ruining this great country while the small stores that serve the PEOPLE are suffering. Life's a *****! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FenderGuy1 Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Well Kaleb, i just need a little bit of time: Future Fender CEO! Making Fender give a comeback! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badbluesplayer Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Fender will survive. GC will go out of business. That's o.k. The future for dealers is to be like Sweetwater or other internet dealers with good service. Fender is just overvalued. No problem for the long term value of the brand, just a problem for the current investors with their heavy debt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Total thread derail! Not only does the vintage guitar market have nothing to do with Fender IPO, but it also has nothing to do with GC either. At the least, if there is a connection, it hasn't been made by anything I have read. Maybe a connection might be that in some cases, "mom and pop" stores are doing OK in comparism to GC in that GC is often failing so much at many locations, that many shops near any particular location are getting more customers. But I think RETROSURFER has a more important point that all are competing against online stores. But I think this has more of an effect on the customer, or the buyer, as the only thing that might change is if the "owners" of any shop would choose to open a brick and morter store, (or if they could), or choose to open an online store. The GC situation is more complicated than how well they are doing, or how much money they have. GC is actually owned by a company that owns a lot of other companies (including online like Musicians Freind, as well as a number of others). THAT company has a lot of capital that could allow GC to keep the doors open while operating in the red, OR, taken as a whole, may actually still be making a profit if you count the other companies under the same ownership that might make profits competing against GC. Predicting if GC will go bankrupt, IF they would be "allowed" to file, or if the owners might choose to disolve it and who gets screwed out of thier investments, etc..THAT takes knowledge of the corperate world beyond what I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Back to the subject matter: I ain't a bit surprised to hear the IPO is a fail. When I heard about the IPO at first, I wouldn't touch that with a 10 foot pole. The idea is buy low, sell high, right? I see Fender as riding a crest right now...as in, they aren't on their way UP, but rather if anything, a solid company at a peak. My view may come more from a guitar junkie than an invester, but I don't see any growth potential for Fender in the short or mid-term. So, why buy into it? Of corse, the idea ALWAYS when offering any IPO or sale is to inflate the value of the company as much as possible in the short term BEFORE it is offered-any company would be foolish not to. But reading that Fender had only turned a profit recently, AND reading that the IPO money was to be used to "pay off SOME debt" and the rest of what they were going to do with the money is a HUGE red flag to me. It caused me to further feel that Fender doesn't have growth potential at this point. And I didn't see a situation where the money from the IPO was going to be able to be used in a way to make MORE money from it. I might be judging more from emotions as a guitar junkie OR my limited knowledge. But did anyone else think it crazy to buy Fender stock? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis G Posted July 23, 2012 Author Share Posted July 23, 2012 The idea is buy low, sell high, right? I see Fender as riding a crest right now...as in, they aren't on their way UP, but rather if anything, a solid company at a peak. My view may come more from a guitar junkie than an invester, but I don't see any growth potential for Fender in the short or mid-term. So, why buy into it? I might be judging more from emotions as a guitar junkie OR my limited knowledge. But did anyone else think it crazy to buy Fender stock? The original article I read basically agreed with this. They didn't really see a "rational" reason to purchase the stock, and felt that a good portion of any purchases would be based more on "emotion". And I wouldn't have touched it either! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluesguitar65 Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 Pardon my Ignorance, but what the heck is an IPO??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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