ksdaddy Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 This has driven me towards the brink of insanity for decades. I've heard (forever) about how loud archtops are, how they are meant to cut through the horn section, etc. I realize a lot of the tone is directional, in that the player doesn't hear so much of it but the audience does. Aside from the handful of Chicago built Kays, Harmonys, etc., I've owned a couple L-50s, at least four L-7s, a Hofner Committee, a Hobner, a Hoyer, an Epiphone Olympic (or Zenith or something), and probably others I don't even remember. I currently have an '86 Heritage Golden Eagle; not their flagship model but pretty darn close... about as close as you could get to an L-5C without having the Gibson name on it. I've tried different strings, lord knows. Reporting on the most recent events (with the Heritage), I have no idea what was on it for strings when I got it. I put a set of 11-50 flats on it, they were okay, then went to 12-52 bronze (they were a little better), then to Thomastik 12-52 flats (good plugged in but lackluster acoustically) and I currently went over the top and put on a set of 14-59 bronze, the thought being a heavier string will drive the top more. I do realize the major differences between flat and roundwound; I know it's apples and pears. 90% of my playing is unplugged so one would think bronze roundwounds would be the default; however it would be nice to be able to plug in once in a while as well. I know rounds have a lot of finger noise; I can live with that, it's not a deal breaker. My current thought process would be to go with 13-56 nickel; I'd have the heft without resorting to 14-59, they'd be round so they'd have some life, and they'd be amp friendly. It's a compromise at best. I also realize a great deal of capturing a tone is in the player's hands. I know getting the most out of an archtop is un-learning a lot of the picking techniques one would use with a flat top or a Telecaster. I have some learning to do. I think what gores my ox is youtube. I've dialed up some videos of people displaying an old L-7 let's say, and the instant the pick goes across an A chord it's like, holy crap, WHERE is that sound coming from?? Some of the guitars I've seen on youtube just seem to have that loose, alive tone, like the strings are trying to burst right off the fingerboard. By contrast any archtop I've owned acts restrained, choked, inhibited, thin, meek and weak. I'm doing something wrong. It can't be 20 bad archtops in a row. What am I doing wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 I suffer from the same affliction. I have been trying to make piece with archtops for decades. I have tried everything from el cheapo Harmonys, Regals, and Kays to Gibson L-5's and even an L-12 (which was my favoirte of the Gibson archtops). I have thrown every kind of string known to man on them. I don't get the volume or punch that are supposed to be there. Plus, I always find them a bit on the thin side on the upper end. My solution was a compromise - a round soundhole archtop. While I have tried a few my favorite remains a mid-1930s Kay Kraft. It has a 15" lower bout with a spruce top with birch back and sides. Neat sexy Oahu headstock that does a better job lining up the strings than anything you find on a Gibson or Martin. This thing sold for less than $16 new - about 1/3 the price of a Gibson L-5. It is punchy and quick and has the woodiness and fatness you would expect from a flattop. One of my favorite things about this guitar is the nice chunky upper mids. A big bonus is that it has the Zorzi adjustable neck which still works like a dream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Gee. About the most I could do is throw out some thoughts or ideas. First thought from reading your extensive list of previously owned, is that not all arch-tops are the same. If your ideal of the "arch-top" sound is that legendary L-5 type sound, most arch-tops are going to be further from that than say a solid body to a LP. Even among the Gibson's, there is the 16" vs the 17", x-braced vs parallel braced. VERY different sounds and tones. I think you have a pretty good understanding about projection and volume, and I think the reality of it is that while arch-tops can be loud, they aren't banjo-killer loud or project over horns loud. If and when they are played in a Jazz band and able to be heard, they have to be strummed hard. The kind of amazing thing about them is a lot in the projection and how they are louder than they seem. Projection in that while they might not SEEM that loud, they can still be heard over quite some distance in the background when you wouldn't think judging from what you are hearing up close or playing it. Another thing that might alter one's perception is that more often than not, most play them amplified, and the sound heard by the audience is actually an amplified sound that happens to sound very accoustic. Even though a typical Gibson Humbucker isn't exactly an "accoustic" pickup, the sound they make in a lot of arch-tops through a clean amp is very close to the "accoustic" sound of a typical L-5 type of thing. As far as strings go, in particular flats, flats are very bass-y and typically don't have a lot of treble. Bass frequencies carry further and require more energy, and HAVE more energy than treble frequencies, but are harder to hear than treble frequencies. I any given space for any given "percieved" volume, it takes far less energy to produce a treble frequency that can be heard over a bass frequency, but they are also the first to die out or be swallowed up by other frequencies. So when you switch to flats, what you may be doing or hearing is swallowing up a lot of the treble frequencies and "percieving" the guitar to not be as loud when in reality, you are making it much louder. In a sense, the louder you make the bass, the MORE you are swallowing up the treble. One more thing about string gauges: while conventional wisdom says that heavier strings make the top move more and make more volume, I think (MY perception/experience) that each individual guitar has it's own limits. There is a limit to how much tention you can put on a top until it vibrates LESS from the tention, which will choke it out rather than let it vibrate. Heavier won't always mean louder if that is the case. Of corse, lastly, it could be that your particular Heritage version doesn't get it for you. Personally, I would be far more "picky" choosing an arch-top than any other type, mostly, because I think they are more complex than other types. I feel there is more difference between 10 different L-5's than 10 different electrics or flat-tops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Nilppeznaf Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Very interesting thread... great reading I can't really add much.. but as you said KS... the volume/projection is more to the listener than the actual player ? I assume you are listening to good players on youtube..and they are probably using pro stuff to record the clip...? Thanks for the info and insights anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobouz Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Acoustically, the best sounding archtop I've ever owned was a 1930's X-braced, carved-top Wards made by Gibson. If you haven't already tried one, a Gibson from '34 to '39 with X bracing (L-5,7,10,12) would be worth exploring & might have the characteristics you're after. No doubt about it, this is a tricky category that often defies generalizations! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markini Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Ignore below, I just realized you are talking about acoustics which come with wound G strings. The PRS below is an electric. have you tried a "wound" G string? My PRS Hollow body II, really puts out a nice balanced tone and that wound G string is a factor. Pretty quiet guitar unplugged but still ok to jam on. Heavenly when plugged in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksdaddy Posted July 25, 2012 Author Share Posted July 25, 2012 If you haven't already tried one, a Gibson from '34 to '39 with X bracing (L-5,7,10,12) would be worth exploring & might have the characteristics you're after. Yep, one of mine was an x-braced '35 L-7 that got culled back in '89. I didn't keep it long enough to get to know it and that was back when L-7s were three digit guitars. The Golden Eagle is X braced too. Wonderful craftsmanship, we just need to find (and scratch) each others' itches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Nilppeznaf Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 The Golden Eagle is X braced too. Wonderful craftsmanship, we just need to find (and scratch) each others' itches. That is a fukin nice looking guitar....mmmmmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarrr Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 I have never run into a Heritage arch but I had an L50 for 30yrs. I bought an Eastman ar810ce last summer and can't find anything to complain about... the archtop is not a solid body and not a flattop. I play mine like I would a LG2, etc and that works best. The Armstrong floating pickup is nice for elec acous amp config. Dread players and shredders are fish outda wadda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Acoustically, the best sounding archtop I've ever owned was a 1930's X-braced, carved-top Wards made by Gibson. If you haven't already tried one, a Gibson from '34 to '39 with X bracing (L-5,7,10,12) would be worth exploring & might have the characteristics you're after. No doubt about it, this is a tricky category that often defies generalizations! The L-12 I was putzing with was a 17" X braced archtop. As I said, I did think this one was the best of the ones I had played. One thing I was told by guys who know their way around an archtop and echoes the above post is that us flat top players do not know how to approach an archtop guitar. That we tend to flail away at them when a lighter touch is really the best way to go at them. Also I play only with my fingers and I am guessing archtops might respond a bit better to a pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksdaddy Posted July 25, 2012 Author Share Posted July 25, 2012 I think besides changing my attack, I need to really put some thought into what I want out of a string and what gauge will work for me. It will be a compromise no matter what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissouriPicker Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 I've always been under the impression that the arch tops are not as loud as flat tops, dreads, etc. I really don't know. Don't own one. I've looked at and played a Loar that sounded pretty cool. It was a different tone from any of my "standard" guitars, but it was not a loud guitar, just a different sounding guitar. I guess I'm under the impression that if you want to be heard on an arch top you need to plug in or mic the guitar. This is an informative thread for me. Also, I've usually heard they are associated with jazz. Yet, Mother Maybelle played one for years and you see a lot of the old country/folk pickers from the 50s-60s using them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dchristo Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 this might help http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOaXOXE9ITg&feature=related Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 this might help http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOaXOXE9ITg&feature=related That is an extraordinarily useful tutorial. I have been having exactly this issue with my 1947 L-7: I try to play it like a flat-top, since I don't know any better, and I don't like the results. I've had trouble bonding with it, because I don't really understand it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-minor7 Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 this might help Okay I get the little push-trick, but apart from that, isn't he just playing the new stringed guitar in front of a decent microphone ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Okay I get the little push-trick, but apart from that, isn't he just playing the new stringed guitar in front of a decent microphone ? Well, that's certainly part of it. But a really good microphone when you are trying to demonstrate fairly subtle differences in sound is a pretty important ingredient. (And by the way, Em7, I'm sitting here with a wonderful glass of Islay's finest in honor of your friend Mr. Leitch, playing my J-45. Sticking my big nose in the snifter is like burying my face in a peat bog. Cheers to you, from the Hurdy-Gurdy man! What you are doing up at 3:30 in the morning is beyond me, but I seem to recall keeping pretty odd hours as a professional musician.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-minor7 Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 And by the way, Em7, I'm sitting here with a wonderful glass of Islay's finest in honor of your friend Mr. Leitch, playing my J-45. Sticking my big nose in the snifter is like burying my face in a peat bog. Cheers to you, from the Hurdy-Gurdy man! What you are doing up at 3:30 in the morning is beyond me, but I seem to recall keeping pretty odd hours as a professional musician.) Pleased to hear about your little tableau. And Don deserves a velvet glove. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retrorod Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 I get it...I think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retrorod Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 I suffer from the same affliction. I have been trying to make piece with archtops for decades. I have tried everything from el cheapo Harmonys, Regals, and Kays to Gibson L-5's and even an L-12 (which was my favoirte of the Gibson archtops). I have thrown every kind of string known to man on them. I don't get the volume or punch that are supposed to be there. Plus, I always find them a bit on the thin side on the upper end. My solution was a compromise - a round soundhole archtop. While I have tried a few my favorite remains a mid-1930s Kay Kraft. It has a 15" lower bout with a spruce top with birch back and sides. Neat sexy Oahu headstock that does a better job lining up the strings than anything you find on a Gibson or Martin. This thing sold for less than $16 new - about 1/3 the price of a Gibson L-5. It is punchy and quick and has the woodiness and fatness you would expect from a flattop. One of my favorite things about this guitar is the nice chunky upper mids. A big bonus is that it has the Zorzi adjustable neck which still works like a dream. That is a very pretty round-hole archtop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retrorod Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 I suffer from the same affliction. I have been trying to make piece with archtops for decades. I have tried everything from el cheapo Harmonys, Regals, and Kays to Gibson L-5's and even an L-12 (which was my favoirte of the Gibson archtops). I have thrown every kind of string known to man on them. I don't get the volume or punch that are supposed to be there. Plus, I always find them a bit on the thin side on the upper end. My solution was a compromise - a round soundhole archtop. While I have tried a few my favorite remains a mid-1930s Kay Kraft. It has a 15" lower bout with a spruce top with birch back and sides. Neat sexy Oahu headstock that does a better job lining up the strings than anything you find on a Gibson or Martin. This thing sold for less than $16 new - about 1/3 the price of a Gibson L-5. It is punchy and quick and has the woodiness and fatness you would expect from a flattop. One of my favorite things about this guitar is the nice chunky upper mids. A big bonus is that it has the Zorzi adjustable neck which still works like a dream. Sorry....Dejavue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 That is a very pretty round-hole archtop And here's a nice f-hole archtop to go with it...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 I think besides changing my attack, I need to really put some thought into what I want out of a string and what gauge will work for me. It will be a compromise no matter what. Sometimes, to try and guess what gauge the guitar (or me) will like, I will try tuning down or up to get an idea how the guitar reacts to different tension. If the guitar comes alive, then I just make the best guess as to what gauge would match the tension I feel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuestionMark Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 I really can't explain the archtop loudness thing. I have a 1936 NY Epiphone Zenith acoustic archtop that is by far the loudest most cuttingest guitar I have ever heard. If I am in a jam room with 12 flat-tops, the Zenith not only sonically cuts through all of them as its EQ is different, but also is louder than any other guitar in the room. When I play it, even I am sensitive to hearing its loudness from behind the instrument...so, its not just who it is projecting out at. On the other hand, I have other archtops that simply are not loud and do not have the Zenith's different EQ. One is a 1933 archtop...which sounds good, but, doesn't have that infamous archtop loud sound. I've also played a number of acoustic archtops at vintage guitar shows and only a small percentage have that special loud sound that could have cut through a band in the pre-electric days. I really can't explain why some are louder...really louder and some simply aren't. QM aka Jazzman Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave C Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 I realize that this is somewhat of an old thread, but I appreciate the information that all have presented here. I was having the same issue with my Eastman 810 CE even after switching to 13 phosphor bronze strings. Based on this thread I tried using a Dunlop heavy thumb pick. It makes all the difference in the world as far as low end response and loudness goes. I have had to raise the action on the guitar as a result however. I would be interested in hearing how others feel after trying something really heavy for a pick like a thumb pick. Thanks, Dave C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksdaddy Posted June 6, 2013 Author Share Posted June 6, 2013 I bailed. Just walked away from the whole notion of owning an archtop. I owned a Heritage Golden Eagle for a little over a year and sold it. I guess my misguided attraction to archtops was visual... they looked classy and 'old school' but we just aren't a mesh. I've had dozens by the way, of all price ranges and sizes. I've learned the hard way, you either hit it off with a style of guitar or you don't. I always go back to the Telecaster. I've saved a lot of money lately not buying holy grails. It's been under my nose for 35 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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