daveinspain Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 Aahhhem.... In his own words... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CowboyBillyBob1 Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 Aahhhem.... In his own words... I am not sure I get your point. Regardless of his choice of pickup or stompox it still sounds like him. His vibrato and dynamics are very distinctive and that comes from his fingers. Just like BB King, Albert King, SRV, and a host of other unique players. Milod... So you have tasted my X Wifes chicken! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveinspain Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 I am not sure I get your point. Regardless of his choice of pickup or stompox it still sounds like him. His vibrato and dynamics are very distinctive and that comes from his fingers. Just like BB King, Albert King, SRV, and a host of other unique players. It comes from both... learn your craft and the tools available to you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CowboyBillyBob1 Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 It comes from both... learn your craft and the tools available to you... I have been playing guitar for over 50 years and have used more effect pedals and rack gear than I care to remember. Through all of that I sounded the same (to my ears at least). Right now I've got it down to just an MXR Dyna Comp, TS9, and MXR Carbon Copy analog delay with the width of the internal modulation turned down. Put it through a '65 Deluxe Reverb Reissue and I am there. Still sounds like me. In fact the new Ernie Ball Cobalt strings are the only "new" thing that has improved my tone but still I sound like me. I am willing to agree that effects are 1% and my fingers (ie vibrato, dynamics, technique, et al) is 99%. I should mention that choice of pick is a big part of that 1% or maybe it adds another point so that I am now at a total of 101%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This_Dying_Soul Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 all this talk of effects vs no effects is all well and good, but to those misinformed souls who claim someone sounds good because they use effects and won't sound as good if you take the effects away - the use of effects is part of the art that is electric guitar. To make the effects sound good you must first have some fundamental skill that effects will not supply. even then, while there is no "wrong" way to use effects, the truly talented who choose to use effects will sound good with them... but it is not the effects making them sound good, it's their ability to use the effect. If you don't know how to use the effects in your rig, they can sound horrible. You make the effect sound good not the other way around. It depends not just on how you set the effect parameters but also where you choose to place the effect in the context of the song. Steve Vai does not sound good becaue of his effects, his effects sound good because he knows how to manipulate them. At the same time, I do agree, you do not NEED effects to play guitar, but to me they are just as much a part of electric guitar as the guitar and amp themselves. A tool with which to create music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaxson50 Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 Milod. I agree, 100%. The only thing I would add is the value of the picking hand. As important as the fretting hand is, tone and attack comes from the picking style. Then add sound affects as you want, but that don't make up for poor playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaxson50 Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 Oy! Not this again. How does Eric get his Cream tone as opposed to his Journeyman tone? Did he change his fingers, or did he use more pedal driven gain, sustain, and chorus through a Strat equipped with lace sensor pick ups as opposed to his cranked Marshall with an SG. And how did he get that tone he uses on White Room? Is that his fingers or a Wah-Wah pedal? It's a freakin' Wah-Wah pedal! Pinch harmonic = In the fingers Flanger = Not In The Fingers Although I'm sure he means that the art of it is in the fingers, the ability and intangible "It" is in the fingers. But still..... http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/Issue/2008/Feb/The_BluesBreaker_Revisited.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 Cowboybillybob... Not that I'm aware of on the chicken issue - but I've had some pretty bad stuff in restaurants. Jax... Yupper definitely to the right hand technique. As usual I apparently was alluding rather that stating outright. <grin> As I've said, I have nothing against stomp boxes - but I have a hunch that one might be quite correct to state that they're 99 percent needless, if not useless - including the ones I use. Yet I convinced myself to buy a Leslie years ago, and now a Leslie emulator, just to sound sorta like a B3. Do I need to sound like a B3? Not really, although it's fun. But my point is that for 99 percent of what I do, I really don't need it and... were I currently playing in a band, and even doing material that has been done with a B3, do I really "need" to try to emulate that or... is getting "that" sound more a matter of my ego and little boy's tendency to go out to buy toys? (Okay, I plead guilty to a little boy tendency to go out to buy toys if I can afford them, but...) I guess the way I look at it is along the lines of, "Why not just do the piece plain and dry first - then start to consider additives." To hit alongside Cowboybillybob's analogy, first bake the biscuit, then decide what you're gonna put on it. In effect, we're talking music first, messing with tone second. Trumpet or flugelhorn. Straight trumpet mute, cup mute or a wah-wah mute or - gee, the rubber part of a toilet plunger to "wah?" For what it's worth, it seems funny to me how our music long ago in general dropped the sax from "rock," and yet so many guys add this or that fuzz attachment to make their guitar sound like the stuff sax players have been doing in pop and other music for ages. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazzboy Posted August 7, 2012 Author Share Posted August 7, 2012 Aahhhem.... In his own words... Very cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaleb Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 all this talk of effects vs no effects is all well and good, but to those misinformed souls who claim someone sounds good because they use effects and won't sound as good if you take the effects away - the use of effects is part of the art that is electric guitar. To make the effects sound good you must first have some fundamental skill that effects will not supply. even then, while there is no "wrong" way to use effects, the truly talented who choose to use effects will sound good with them... but it is not the effects making them sound good, it's their ability to use the effect. If you don't know how to use the effects in your rig, they can sound horrible. You make the effect sound good not the other way around. It depends not just on how you set the effect parameters but also where you choose to place the effect in the context of the song. Steve Vai does not sound good becaue of his effects, his effects sound good because he knows how to manipulate them. At the same time, I do agree, you do not NEED effects to play guitar, but to me they are just as much a part of electric guitar as the guitar and amp themselves. A tool with which to create music. I concur! Steve Vai, EVH, Hendrix, Alex Lifeson, etc, are known for using effects, but it's the way they use them. I still think if you took The Edge's effects away, he'd be reduced to either something smaller or nothing at all.....Sorry to U2 fans.....I'm not trying to start a fight here.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FirstMeasure Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 There are some players that with only one note regardless of the gear used you can tell who it is. Santana is certainly like that. It's that thing they have that comes from how they "touch" the instrument. Eric sounds like himself wheather he is playing an acoustic or electric, Strat or ES335, Les Paul or Tele. It always sounds like him. I was just looking at some tab for Cream's live version of Politician and trying to copy some of these licks and dag nab it Eric comes through the gear or "tone" to sound like himself. Compare that to say Cocaine and it still sounds like Eric. If you added a flanger it would still sound like him. That comes from his fingers not the gear. When I eat a piece of chicken it still tastes like chicken regardless of the spice I used while cooking it. " Sure, but is that "Tone" or "Style". I'm certainly not saying you can go buy a pedal that lets you play like Clapton, but there certainly is equipment that can get you his tone. If you give Clapton Mark Knoflers guitar he will sound like Clapton on Mark Knoflers guitar. The "style" and technique are in the fingers, the "tone" is unquestionably in the gear. {edit} If you put too much Cayenne Pepper on Chicken it will taste like Cayenne Pepper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 Firstmeasure... I guess in ways I'd not agree that "tone" is all in the equipment. Just the difference in player's attack, and where they play from the bridge will make major differences in tone. Even a "bare finger, fingerpicker," such as what I mostly do, will have some major changes in town due to right hand technique. Frankly I notice even more difference on an electric than on an acoustic. Obviously I'm not talking about using various fuzz, compressors, wahs, etc., but the basics can be quite different IMHO by changes in the right hand. For one example, I'm not sure you can get a McGuinn Byrds 12-string sound without a flatpick and steel fingerpicks regardless the guitar, amp and whatever. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FirstMeasure Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 Sure it's not all in the equipment, but I would say tone is mostly in the equipment. Right hand attack has a lot to do with how it's gonna sound, but rolling the tone knob back is going to have a distinctive and definable effect on the tone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badbluesplayer Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 I don't use effects. Garbage in, garbage out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riffster Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 If Eric says it is all in the hands why does his signature gear cost so much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thermionik Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 Talking about tone is like dancing about architecture. Here we have a load of dancers using the medium of dance to discuss the finer points of architecture. Dancer "A" does a waltz to suggest the original drawings are the most important. Dancer "B" disagrees, using a quickstep to intimate that the foreman on site is the significant factor. Dancer "C" laughs as he sambas in support of the draughtsmen and women. Dancer "A" lambadas off in a huff whilst "B" uses a tango to debate paper grade. None of them seems to realise that the finished building is all that really matters..... Play what suits you, with whatever makes you happy, and enjoy it. Unless you are working for someone else, then:- Play what suits your client, with whatever makes them happy, and hope they enjoy it. The best thing is to play it, not talk about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmer Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 you can have a 6000$ Guitar and 50 boxes on the floor and a wall of the best amps you can get...if u ain't got it in the fingers the music will not be good! On the other hand: if you got it in the fingers you can play on a 200$ un-amplified electric fender copy, and still people will notice that you can play. So, yes it is all in the fingers but good gear and boxes will let you choose your sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 Hands, fingers, AND your head. It could be your perspective. What we are REALLY talking about is a skill, and one that takes PRACTICE. Some things require hand-eye coordination (and that could be also to mean feet or the whole of the body), and some take knowledge. I like the chicken analogy. My Gwennie makes fried chicken that will make you slap your momma. But even if I was to follow her recipee, it wouldn't be the same. We seen to recognize an individuals cooking when we taste it. When you flip, how much of this or that, how long to cook, etc. While these things require the use of the hands, it doesn't really matter how coordinated one is, but yet still it takes practice and experience. This would be in the "head". I work in construction, so I get to see a lot of poeple use thier "skills" in their respective trades. Here, personal expression or a "signature" is not present that one should recognize, BUT hand-eye coordination and PRACTICE has a big impact. A carpenter swinging a hammer, a finisher mudding walls, it takes skill. At the same time, knowledge and technique has a big part, as you can tell certain old-timers who have knowledge of doing things a certain way for some things that the young guys don't know about. But within all these variables, you still come across guys that seem to have talent above and beyond the rest. That can range from an aprentice you seems to take quickly, to a guy who just seems to be able to do a better job quicker and better than the norm. As an andectode to that, I remember one of my first finish carpentry jobs I did, and it struck me as kinda odd and spooky how much it looked like my garandfathers work, to spite the fact that he never taught me and I had different tools than he had. The interesting thing about guitar is that it incorperates ALL these things, and they can be at different amounts all over the board. Some have more talent than others and take to it easier, but it still takes an amount of practice and experience. In many cases, practice can make up for a whole lot of talent. AND, that talent or ability that is developed could be in knowledge of how to create and manipulate sounds and noise through effects that require less ability and use of the fingers or hand-eye coordination, OR it could be leaning much more toward developing skill in hand-eye coordination. WHAT someone might want to create has everything to do with it at the same time, as well as a talent OR ability developed in recognizing different things within music. It's DEEP. Some players will have a signature to thier playing that is hard to get away from because of their hand-eye abilities, and some will be recognizable because of their results manipulating sounds. Some players you just can't tell who they are from another, but still make good music. There is no one size fits all with guitar playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thermionik Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 Chet Atkins once had a studio tech say "Mr Atkins - that Gretsch sure sounds nice....." Chet put the guitar on a stand, and said "How does she sound now, boy....." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riffster Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 In the end the combination of a good player and good gear is the best, All of these famous players that say gear does not matter never seem to play crappy guitars, right? Skill and tone are two different things, I am more in line with Jimmy Vaughan's way of thinking, requesting that his guitar would be made in Mexico to make it affordable, have good stock pickups and have his signature in the back of the headstock. There you go, nice quality axe at a nice price, Jimmy can't make you practice but his signature guitar can inspire you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaleb Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 Riffster, what's amazing is that Jimmie actually uses his signature Strats! I think "tone" is an inorganic object. Say EC's signature Strat, his Twin, and his pedals are lying around in a studio; he knows it's gonna produce a tone, and that tone at that stage is just an object. Unmolded clay, if you will. Once he picks up his Strat and turns the Twin up, the inorganic tone will now become an orgainic, living thing because of the person operating it. My point being? Eric Clapton will still sound like Eric Clapton no matter what. People would still buy his records and go see him live if he was playing a First Act guitar and a Pignose amp. There's a reason why all the players we love have a great tone that works: That tone is what they hear in their head. They like it. It inspires them to play in a certain fashion. EC might not like his Cream-era tone nowadays, but back then, it was the sound he heard in his head. Eric's sound comes from his fingers and his brain. The gear he's used over the years was chosen because it helped him facilitate the sound he was seeking. I think this concept tends to go over people's heads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quapman Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 When I first started jamming with buddies(I won't call it a band because it was only for fun and we didn't do any gigs), I bought myself a nice Marshall stack with 50W head that I played my 69 Custom through. I bought a really expensive(for me) Yamaha digital delay(D1500)and a few pedals. It all came together for some really nice sounding tones and dreamy effects. Then after a few months of playing with all this stuff I realized,, I couldn't play worth a crap. All these effects were just hiding my mistakes. So I stripped down. I focused on learning and practicing. Plus, one of the best things I ever did for my playing was to stop trying to sound like anyone else. I played with my feeling not someone elses. I took lessons again and also self taught myself some elementary theory. Just enough to be able to find my way around the fretboard. I didn't become no virtuoso but I really did improve and got to where I could almost make my fingers do what my brain was thinking. Then I quit for 15 years but that's another story. lol So to say it's all in the fingers has got to be true. All the other stuff is irrelevant until the fingers can do what you want them to do. You can buy tone. You can't buy talent. I tried..lol Although hard work and practice didn't work for me either so I could be out to lunch on it all..lol. But I do believe that you should sound good without any gadgets first. The gadgets should only enhance your sound, not define it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FirstMeasure Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Jimi achieved a wah effect by rolling the tones back on his middle and neck pick ups (half way on the middle PU, all the way on the neck PU), then used his forearm to toggle between all the pick ups. Is that tone is his forearm? And I'm still waiting for someone to get a Flange or Chorus sound out of their fingers. I'll admit, it kind of bugs me when musicians romanticize words like "Tone". Trying to make it an sound like an intangible or mysterious bit of magic, but then completely ignore words like Timber and Voice when it comes to making sound. Then to start talking about ability and technique like it's tone When it comes to making music (or any kind of art) it's not "All" about any one thing. Tone may come from picking style, but it also comes from the amp, guitar, pick ups, pedals, materials, and construction. An acoustic guitar (for those that say they use no effects so tone mus come from fingers) gets it's tone from different woods and bracing techniques. All the fingering in the world wont make a Cedar Top sound like a Spruce Top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaleb Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Jimi achieved a wah effect by rolling the tones back on his middle and neck pick ups (half way on the middle PU, all the way on the neck PU), then used his forearm to toggle between all the pick ups. Is that tone is his forearm? And I'm still waiting for someone to get a Flange or Chorus sound out of their fingers. I'll admit, it kind of bugs me when musicians romanticize words like "Tone". Trying to make it an sound like an intangible or mysterious bit of magic, but then completely ignore words like Timber and Voice when it comes to making sound. Then to start talking about ability and technique like it's tone When it comes to making music (or any kind of art) it's not "All" about any one thing. Tone may come from picking style, but it also comes from the amp, guitar, pick ups, pedals, materials, and construction. An acoustic guitar (for those that say they use no effects so tone mus come from fingers) gets it's tone from different woods and bracing techniques. All the fingering in the world wont make a Cedar Top sound like a Spruce Top. I can get flange and chorus sounds with my fingers..... I think you guys are getting too deep with this. Eric was trying to point out that his sound overall comes from his hands. I'll agree that tone itself comes from gear, though. The Marshall sound comes from Marshall amps. Only a Martin 000-28 sounds like that. But MY sound comes from my fingers. Everybody knows the story about Ted Nugent plugging into EVH's rig. It sounded like Ted Nugent, not EVH. I know people that get "Brown Sound" using gear not even close to what Eddie used. I think, just as long as you have a nice distortion sound and you play the damn licks right, you'll nail it. Eddie will tell you the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 I think that in ways we're arguing from the perspective of musicians and ignoring - as usual - what it is a given crowd hears. I've seen far too many bands with all kinds of fancy guitars and amps and stompboxes that sound like utter crap because they ain't got a decent mix. Frankly whether I like a "band" or not in terms of their book, my respect for their professionalism is whether there's a decent mix and they're playing together. A bunch of relatively talented with a pro attitude, but three-chord more or less beginners in a four or five-piece with basic equipment can sound better than a batch of howling hot players and equipment with a lousy mix. We had a Sturgis bike rally street dance here with a Denver band that I went to "shoot." Not young, not old players probably 30s or so. I don't care for the book they were using, and I'm not sure they used their correct book for the crowd (they're very capable and have a deep book) but their mix was right and the music good whether it was your schtick or not. I'd personally prefer listening to them playing stuff that ain't my thing than a band playing material I already like, but with just a blaring of audio mud. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.