Gibson admits wrong doing

[Guest farnsbarns]

This is just a waste of time and diskspace.

 

Can we please get back to talking music and guitars?

 

Yes, it's very easy, in the breadcrumbs above, click back to the lounge and don't come back to this thread. It's not difficult and it's not like you could call this discussion off topic.

[martinh]

It is indeed sad Henry didn't get his day in court, and even sadder that the DoJ apparently got away with their August 2011 Gestapo tactics.

 

 

Gestapo tactics??? ....... Before he died, I had the opportrunity to talk with Justice Opala of the Oklahoma Supreme Court regading his fighting in the Polish Resistance and his capture by the Gestapo. Maybe you should talk to to one of the few survivors who have experienced "gestapo tactics" before making such a comparision

[jannusguy2]

Gestapo tactics??? ....... Before he died, I had the opportrunity to talk with Justice Opala of the Oklahoma Supreme Court regading his fighting in the Polish Resistance and his capture by the Gestapo. Maybe you should talk to to one of the few survivors who have experienced "gestapo tactics" before making such a comparision

People who use that kind of hyperbole probably don't really care about facts or reality.

[Rus]

A "non-denial denial." Nowhere, and at no time, has Gibson refuted charges of their alleged involvement in willfully falsifying documents. The Legacy Act and the amount of finishing of fingerboards are relevant issues, but in this case, red herrings used by Henry J. to divert interested parties from some of the real issues of this case, from what I can tell.

dude, what country are you from? apparently you're from a place that considers you guilty after you're accused of something, until you prove that you're not guilty. it's kind of the opposite in America.

 

also, you called it the Legacy Act, awesome

[milod]

After having read the agreement...

 

Yeah, I'm quite aware that "gestapo tactics" is a stretch if one wishes to make a direct comparison to the Nazis.

 

OTOH, it might seem a bit extreme to have two SWAT incursions when a suit, a gofer and some trucks could have managed even to confiscate the wood and computers and whatever.

 

Frankly the term "gestapo tactics" is something I've heard since I was in college in the bad side of the good old days when it was the left-leaning folks making the accusations when somebody'd get busted for this or that. Sometimes it's right or left or whatever - politics on both sides have made such accusations.

 

Basically I think what we tend to have in the US is a feeling that if the government is sneakily gathering "dirt" on somebody, then has a big armed raid - or two - on somebody, that something ain't right.

 

Needless to say, if you don't like the person or politics of the person so targeted, they're getting their just desserts, and if you do, then the government is using "gestapo tactics."

 

Frankly I think what happened to Gibson is a darned poor way to treat a business unless they're doing something a lot worse than any of the accusations I've heard or or seen and if there's a realistic reason to believe you're going to encounter armed resistance that goes beyond the fact that they're in Tennessee.

 

Now, were there more nasty accusations, such as importation of drugs or export of arms, yeah, I could feature it.

 

But I think it's part of the the American character to be bothered by what some on the left have called "jackbooted thugs" breaking in on somebody at gunpoint when it's not obviously justified.

 

That ain't politics. Now some with a more urban, "European" mind set may disagree.

 

But more than a few of my acquaintances from the 1960s "radical left" have made quite similar complaints, and going much further in comparing law enforcement and the legal system with that of the Nazi era. I think such use of that sort of wording tends to depend on whose ox is being gored, as the saying goes.

 

Ah, well, our locals found a pipe bomb on the highway yesterday and frankly I'm cheering for them to track it back to whomever is involved in its creation and transportation. Just the "bump" in the highway could have cost a life during the nearby Sturgis motorcycle rally even if it didn't go "bang" anywhere.

 

Luckily it was discovered by state highway workers out ensuring highway surfaces would be clean to offer safe travel to the thousands of bikers riding beyond their abilities out here.

 

m

[zigzag]

dude, what country are you from? apparently you're from a place that considers you guilty after you're accused of something, until you prove that you're not guilty. it's kind of the opposite in America.

 

also, you called it the Legacy Act, awesome

 

Obviously I meant the Lacey Act. And it is still true that Gibson never commented on their guilt or innocence. If I was not guilty of accusations, I might mention that at some point... d00d... awesome...

[cookieman15061]

Obviously I meant the Lacey Act. And it is still true that Gibson never commented on their guilt or innocence. If I was not guilty of accusations, I might mention that at some point... d00d... awesome...

Pretty sure they've been claiming that all along.

[CowboyBillyBob1]

This is really quite simple. Gibson knew what they were doing was illegal and filed false documents to try and get over. Plain and simple. If anything they got off easy plus they get to keep the illegal wood that was siezed.

You don't need to be a lawer to understand that. The guy could have been put in jail for what he knowingly did.

Yhe gov't cut them a huge break!

 

That being said I still adore my 2012 LP Standard. It's the best electric guitar I have ever owned and I have owned and played quite a few LP's over the past 40 years.

[stein]

This is really quite simple. Gibson knew what they were doing was illegal and filed false documents to try and get over. Plain and simple. If anything they got off easy plus they get to keep the illegal wood that was siezed.

You don't need to be a lawer to understand that. The guy could have been put in jail for what he knowingly did.

Yhe gov't cut them a huge break!

 

That being said I still adore my 2012 LP Standard. It's the best electric guitar I have ever owned and I have owned and played quite a few LP's over the past 40 years.

A few poeple have have generously provided links for you to read here in this thread.

 

You should read them.

[badbluesplayer]

A few poeple have have generously provided links for you to read here in this thread.

 

You should read them.

 

Eatin' all that crow tastes pretty bad, eh?

[zigzag]

A few poeple have have generously provided links for you to read here in this thread.

 

You should read them.

 

I have read them... all of them... some of them two or three times. I've read all of the threads on three different web forums discussing this issue. After all of that, it seems we can debate the Lacey Act, we can debate the laws of finished fretboard thicknesses and finished versus unfininished, we can discuss laws surrounding the exportation/importation of protected woods and what the Indian, US, and international laws are, and we can debate the legitimacy of the sourcers, importers and exporters. Most all of those interests have been addressed by Henry J in public statements. What he and Gibson fail to address is the mis-identification of the fingerboards that were confiscated. What we don't know is the frequency and amount of mis-identified wood shipments that ocurred. Apparently, the Feds consider this tantamount to smuggling, and treated Gibson in a manner consistent with that offense. To the best of my knowledge, the DOJ nor Henry J have made any statement with regard to discovery or guilt or innocence in that aspect of this case.

[swampash]

Now that Gibson are going back to the use of Indian rosewood on their Guitars, will a lot of folks out there hold off on buying one until they are assured of getting rosewood on their fretboards instead of baked maple. Should be interesting.......

[rct]

Look at the Markets they've created!

 

Pre-DOJ Les Paul! Everyone knows these babies smoked!!! Gibson never recovered from those terrible days and these Pauls are coveted for their rich vintage Pre-DOJ tone!

 

BMLP! Everyone knows these Baked Maple Les Pauls smoked!!! Once Gibson bounced back from the DOJ raids and stopped making those inferior Pre-DOJ guitars these coveted tone machines were the result!

 

It'll be awesome. Studios going for ten k. Awesome.

 

rct

[martinh]

Look at the Markets they've created!

 

Pre-DOJ Les Paul! Everyone knows these babies smoked!!! Gibson never recovered from those terrible days and these Pauls are coveted for their rich vintage Pre-DOJ tone!

 

BMLP! Everyone knows these Baked Maple Les Pauls smoked!!! Once Gibson bounced back from the DOJ raids and stopped making those inferior Pre-DOJ guitars these coveted tone machines were the result!

 

It'll be awesome. Studios going for ten k. Awesome.

 

rct

 

 

Maybe we can have a group similar to the Norlin SubGroup, for Richlite/Baked Maple boards? Presumably it will work the same way - a loyal group of owners will defend their instrument as the " best I've ever played, much better than the stuff they're turning out now" while a group of non-owners will post comments like "anyone who compares a Baked Maple board to the real thing is a moron" This has proved very helpful in debating the virtues and pitfalls of the Norlin period

[CowboyBillyBob1]

A few poeple have have generously provided links for you to read here in this thread.

 

You should read them.

 

I have and I stand by what I said. Gibson is as guilty as the day is long. Perhaps some people do not understand what they are reading because the US Gov't is being quite generous here.

 

There are no underhanded political motives by the government here just Gibson's corporate spin to try and save face.

[zigzag]

This will make good reading in any book published on the subject. It has a protagonist who is a company loved and/or respected by most people involved with musical instruments. That company is run by a guy who most people have a hard time liking, but who is now worthy of sympathy due to the gestapo tactics of a large and impersonal administration (antagonist) set out to destroy small business and capitalism as we know it and punish personal and corporate accomplishment. The story is timely also in that it reflects the contemporary condition of a nation politically shattered during bad economic times. The CEO's public image is shaped by his politics, and he uses public sentiment to mask his crooked attempts to violate import laws made to prevent ravaging foreign lands of endangered wood species harvested by virtual slaves whose country will not reap the benefits enjoyed by the US companies that it serves.

 

Great stuff!

[milod]

Actually I think Ziggy pretty well has it, whether one is on one or the other "sides" to this.

 

Frankly I think Gibson likely is "guilty" of not being as pushy on checking provenance of some woods as current federal bureaucrats believe should be done.

 

And yes, that does end up taking it into the arena of "politics," albeit not really as party-involved as might seem apparent at first glance. Or as much as some more party-oriented folks here might prefer.

 

There are and have been some interesting parallels in the world of art, archaeology and paleontology as well as items not so old that are considered "artifacts" such as certain sorts of materials made by, or with involvement by, "native peoples" in various parts of the world.

 

Ivory, eagle feathers and lots of "stuff" even with ownership trails dating clear back into the 1800s come under some "interesting" laws not dissimilar to what was going on with Gibson. Ditto art, archaeology and paleontology.

 

In fact, I've teased with a paleontologist friend about how we should work together on a novel involving dino bones and smugglers and the black market there.

 

For what it's worth, several attorneys in the tiny town where I live in the US have been involved in cases within the past decade with similar questions of provenance that turned into major civil lawsuits that ran on the edge of questions whether criminal litigation might be involved at some point.

 

The problem is that these laws have become so complex that "morality" can be seen on both sides.

 

For example, let's say my great grandpa bought, or was given, a Lakota (Sioux) headdress in 1890. He gave it to my Mom who willed it to me. But... if I even admit its existence, it's not entirely unlikely it would be confiscated by the feds under current law.

 

Ditto a dino bone he might have found while running with horse traders (as he did) in the area's open range days when most land around here was "government" land. Also, federal authorities under one of the later homestead acts retained "mineral rights" to much of the land around where I live. They get ownership of oil, gas and/or whatever else, but... at what point does that include dino bones? And yes, there are a lot of dino bones around here.

 

IMHO, I've seen a number of such cases where both sides were convinced of their "right."

 

In the Gibson case, obviously both sides felt the costs and potential adverse results of the game insufficient to continue. The "government" saved face by keeping some wood - and apparently also now-worthless computers - and forcing a face-saving "public service donation" to the fish and wildlife service. Gibson saved face by getting a batch of wood back.

 

For what it's worth, too, in my state the state government virtually went to war against the federal F&WS on grounds of pushing legal definitions to the point it was perceived non-politically to be federal harassment rather than good law enforcement. Again, some face-saving accords were made - but the F&WS moved people and changed policies here.

 

m

[jmj5150]

more burnt maple for everyone :-&

[Rus]

I have and I stand by what I said. Gibson is as guilty as the day is long. Perhaps some people do not understand what they are reading because the US Gov't is being quite generous here.

 

There are no underhanded political motives by the government here just Gibson's corporate spin to try and save face.

If they were guilty, the government wouldn't have been "quite generous". I don't get the people that take the government's side against a private corporation. They've probably never run, nor started a business in their lives. In business, it's not black and white, and there's a lot of gray area to our current overabundance of laws and regulations, and the government admitted this in their settlement with Gibson.

 

The people formed the government, and it's there to serve us, not to control us.

[martinh]

I don't get the people that take the government's side against a private corporation. The people formed the government, and it's there to serve us, not to control us.

 

 

I don't get the argument that people must take the side of a private corporation against the Government. Can private corporations never do wrong? if a Corporation dumps toxic waste next to your kids playground, we are required to take the corporation's side? if a Corporation spies on your internet use, harvests personal data about you, and sells it - we are required to take the corporation's side? The people formed the government, and one of the functions the people gave it was to regulate the behavior of business entities for the public good by means of constitutional, democratically passed laws.

 

it's there to serve us, not to control us.

 

It has to do BOTH. A government that has no means of control is not a government, it's a failed state. A government cannot serve its citizens without some degree of control. The founding fathers absolutely understood that. What's the point of having a complex democratic process created by the constitution in order to pass laws if there is no means of enforcement? If I took your Les Paul by climbing in a window, do you seriously believe that the government could serve you (be getting it back) without controlling me ( arrest detention, fines etc?)

 

I think you're indulging in the fallacy that all power not ceded to the government actually remains in the hand of the "people" as a general wide-spread group. It doesn't. When government power breaks down it devolves to the next richest, meanest, best-armed group of citizens down the food chain. This is usually a minority, and even less concerned with the general welfare, (as opposed to its own aims) than the dreaded "government." To put it simply, if you do away with the EPA , the power to decide what can be dumped in the air and water does not revert to "the people" It reverts to whoever is dumping the toxic waste. You don't get a say.

[CowboyBillyBob1]

If they were guilty, the government wouldn't have been "quite generous". I don't get the people that take the government's side against a private corporation. They've probably never run, nor started a business in their lives. In business, it's not black and white, and there's a lot of gray area to our current overabundance of laws and regulations, and the government admitted this in their settlement with Gibson.

 

The people formed the government, and it's there to serve us, not to control us.

Have you ever heard of Goldman Sachs?

 

Left unchecked many (not all) corporations would be happy to take all your pension savings and give themselves a huge bonus. Watching over these corporate criminals IS the Government serving the peoples best interest.

 

Martin Guitars is a company that is responsible to a fault. They buy plenty of wood that may be considered a

'grey area". They however take the dilligent and responsible course of action. I truly believe Chris Martin IV main goal is to responsibly produce the finest instruments and thereby making a profit based on that commitment.

[zigzag]

According to this document issued by the DOJ, Gibson knew exactly what it was doing when they ignored information garnered by one of their own people during a visit to Madagascar with regard to the illegality of specific wood shipments (p.2, 1st paragraph).

 

DOJ document

 

As it appears, many of the suspicions listed in the affidavit to search issued by the agent of the Fish and Wildlife Commission were accurate.

 

Gibson's actions are indefensible. Henry J can whine and moan all he wants, but he knows what he did was illegal.

 

Edit: This release was included in a post by badbluesplayer earlier in this thread. (p.2, #31)

[milod]

Actually the very carefully-worded document tells me that the quid pro quo on both sides includes the actual wording of anything made public as a result of negotiations.

 

The "government" makes no admission and there is no mention of questionable law enforcement and potential prosecutorial error and there is no mention of "criminal" activity on the part of Gibson.

 

If any thing, it increasingly convinces me that various human factors are involved we never will learn about.

 

It appears to me that both sides negotiated to escape a situation that could have resulted in more than a decade of very, very expensive and potentially politically-charged litigation.

 

Words and their meanings under Lacey and processes and procedures by "the government" as well as by Gibson and its agents could easily be argued into the millions of dollars.

 

Frankly my response to the written accord is that both sides recognize vulnerability and wanna step back and walk away.

 

As for government serving or controlling, that's been up for discussion as long as there has been "government."

 

And... Martin, as I mentioned, and it was reported in the press within the past several years, F&WS in my state reached a point in disagreement with state government in a non-political tiff over interpretation of laws and law enforcement procedure that it wasn't pretty at all.

 

I tend to be pretty cynical about claims of bureaucracies, governmental, corporate for-profit or corporate non-profits that they're fine and ethical - and everybody else is doing something illegal.

 

m

[zigzag]

It is easy to blame government for over regulation and oppression of businesses because there are too many examples that can be cited. At the same token, is there any wonder that we distrust private businesses in the aftermath of ENRON and the list of other corporate gang bangings of employees and investors? There are a hell of a lot of honest business people in this country, and there are enough corporate crooks, sleeze-bags, and people who look the other way when their companies make fuzzy deals.

 

Edit: And there are a lot of people who don't like seeing ultra-rich people getting fatter on the backs of workers who work their asses off for peanuts, or get laid-off due to down-sizing, or watch their jobs shipped out of the country, or watch their companies go belly up because of incompetent and over-paid executives.

[milod]

Ziggy...

 

Frankly my personal response is that I distrust any bureaucracy. Period. There seems to be something inherent in such groups that leads to actions that may be "legal" but ain't what fits my definition of honorable even if as individuals all involved are personally honorable.

 

That includes government big enough to have bureaucracies, business big enough to have bureaucracies, religious organizations, unions... you name it.

 

The problem we saw here with F&WS - here in my state, not "here" with Gibson - was a matter of overreaching by the local agents to the point it appeared to be matters of personal vendetta as opposed to "dotted 'i' and crossed 't'" law enforcement which always ends up being questionable regardless.

 

Let's face it, all experienced law enforcement officers and prosecutors know that they could arrest and jail almost any and everyone if they chose to do so and followed them closely enough.

 

OTOH, that also frequently will get cases tossed by judges and nasty publicity. So it's rather rare.

 

With increasing regulation of business, many of which can be interpreted several ways, if not appearing to be utterly ludicrous, no business can keep up if "government regulators" targets them. Period.

 

I'll wager that the local cafes you and I most enjoy could be shut down instantly with excellent documentation of rule-breaking. I've not seen one where that couldn't be done.

 

Gibson admitted that it wasn't as aggressive as it might have been, and not as aggressive as some F&WS agents felt they should be, in checking the provenance of woods.

 

Well, some of our most famous American and "developed world" museums and galleries are "guilty" of exactly the same thing - and sometimes are vilified as greedy nasties and sometimes simply made to look foolish as some government agency or another confiscates stuff they paid bundles for.

 

<sigh>

 

m