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Gibson admits wrong doing

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I lucked out and did see it - almost by accident when I got home late from work.

 

HenryJ looked a bit nervous, but having been on TV a time or two myself, I can say that it's not easy to have that big eye looking at you and you're not sure what to do. Frankly for me it's been easier to do a solo on stage in front of a cupla thousand people.

 

As a PR guy, I'd say he probably could use some prepping for a studio shot; he has done quite well with impromptu meetings with the press.

 

OTOH, Huckabee as a musician himself - assuming one considers a bass player a musician <chortle> - as well as his known political perspectives and upbringing in Tennessee neighbor Arkansas probably would be about as friendly an interview as one might find.

 

I think having the guitar there to show what a fingerboard is, probably was an excellent idea for the general public - regardless which side of the issue anyone might choose to be.

 

m

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Mr. J's appearance on the Huckabee show is nice. My BS detector went off when Mr. J was speaking at 1:49, 2:53, 3:15 and 4:00. My BS detector went off when Mr. Huckabee was speaking at 3:40, 6:01, 6:03 and 6:10.

 

Other than that, he looks like he needs a vacation.

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Martin...

 

If you got a kick out of that, consider also then that the first adjutant general of the Oklahoma National Guard applied in secret for a pardon from the governor or Texas - given that he had escaped "justice" in Texas where he was held as a convicted robber. He became a Wyoming sheriff and deputy U.S. Marshal, too, before the appointment as adjutant general.

 

Life can be ... interesting.

 

The Wikipedia version of his life is, IMHO, somewhat inaccurate, but it does give a good concept of an interesting human being. When he was a sheriff, he was called to quell a riotous situation in a nearby town. Supposedly - and I believe it - when they heard he was en route, things got a bit more peaceful. <grin>

 

It's a life one can't imagine being duplicated today, but ... it was a better time for people to reinvent themselves in those days if they chose to be better than what they had been.

 

http://en.wikipedia....Frank_M._Canton

 

m

 

 

In my home state of Oklahoma ,nothing suprises me. We have had more governers impeached than any other state of the union, and lost half of our county commisioners one time in a single federal probe...

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RE: "Scofflaws," etc.

 

I think we have some problems here with emotional rather than logical response to political overtones on this one.

 

It's not just Gibson, but something I see as an increasing trend because of the way our culture and media attention seems to be going.

 

In terms of this type of "business crime" charge, first notice that the government's news release does not state that Gibson was guilty of any crime and that this settles a criminal action. Most criminal plea bargain type arrangements have an admission of "guilt" and then a mode of settling what would follow for the "guilty" party.

 

Secondly, in terms of criminal guilt in any action, even manslaughter as one of our Australian friends noted, there must be an affirmative showing of either willful wrongful action or negligent inaction. For example, if one is otherwise driving in a reasonable, proper and prudent mode and someone pops out of a ditch into the roadway to get killed, there is no manslaughter. Negligence must be proven as much as an affirmative illegal action. A death, per se, is not an automatic conviction.

 

Unfortunately we see here the polarizing factors involved in today's media coverage in that attitudes and opinions, not solid facts, tend to get the coverage.

 

No charges were filed, but Gibson was twice raided by obviously armed officers who certainly intimidated workers. Somebody in the feds was convinced they had enough to attack Gibson's business, including computers as well as wood and corporate expenses in time and legal support. Whether or not they truly believed they had a case or had some other unknown motivation is strictly conjecture.

 

It appears now that they did not have enough for a slam dunk case. Again, note that criminality is not mentioned. We're talking about interpretations of several nations' laws and the effect thereon for the Lacey Act and the degree of due diligence may or may not have been adequate to keep the feds off Gibson's back.

 

Also, as I've noted above, there is a point at which "due diligence" in determining a chain of provenance comes into question.

 

That's an ongoing problem with art and artifacts worldwide. What changes in law, and/or interpretations of law in multiple jurisdictions might affect a given purchase? Good luck. If your great grandpa gave you a bit of art

from certain countries, for example, it may be as illegal to possess as a nuclear device.

 

This sort of thing also brings into question the degree to which civil and criminal law seem to intercept in ways that may or may not make sense to many of us.

 

As I see it, the bottom line is that both sides backed off from an expensive litigation that in the long run would see nobody winning much of anything. This way Gibson got the feds off their back with probably less spent in the "agreement" than already was spent in getting back into daily business and legal fees. The feds escape a lawsuit that could reveal a number of problems in their own house. As for costs, $500,000 doesn't take long to get spent on the fed side if one considers the cost of several attorneys and secretaries for a couple of years and costs of the raids and subsequent messing with the "taken" equipment and merchandise.

 

But I'm kinda bothered by ascribing nastiness either to Gibson or to the feds. Yeah, I think the feds themselves probably believe collectively at this point that they overreached. That doesn't mean somebody necessarily was evil. I've seen it among a number of criminal lawsuits. Sometimes, in fact, the overreaching was itself a prosecutor's device to achieve a lesser aim. As for Gibson, one might ask the degree to which a business need play games to buy from a third or forth party distanced from an original supplier - or get burned by the feds. In this case, it appears they need spend and play more than they'd been doing. Did they walk a thin line and stumble onto the wrong side? It appears so, but is that truly criminal to be treated at gunpoint?

 

m

 

There ya go trying to get all reasonable on us!! [biggrin]

 

How am I supposed to argue with that?

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Did they walk a thin line and stumble onto the wrong side? It appears so, but is that truly criminal to be treated at gunpoint?

 

...or guns "ablazen" as I believe Mr. Huckabee said (in typical FOX hyperbolic, sensationalist fashion).

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There seems to be some question about the "Armed Swat Team" that came on the raid. There are pictures of the Feds in jeans & side arms...and some comments about that not being a Swat Team.

I was told be a Gibson Employee that the first team that entered was indeed a Swat Team, in full dress, helments, riot gear and automatic weapons...and the pictures are of the inventory team that followed. There were no pictures of the first team.

Does anyone know what really happened...has anyone else talked to an employee.

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I was told be a Gibson Employee that the first team that entered was indeed a Swat Team, in full dress, helments, riot gear and automatic weapons...

 

#-o

 

You don't believe the one you talked to?

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Yes....I do. He said the inventory crew with a lawyer, could have done the same job without the Swat Team. Did they really expect a gun fight at a guitar factory???

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Yes....I do. He said the inventory crew with a lawyer, could have done the same job without the Swat Team. Did they really expect a gun fight at a guitar factory???

 

It's all about intimidation. Eric Holders days are numbered.

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Cheers for that [thumbup]

 

I thought it was funny that of all the Gibsons they could have shown, they brought a BFG with them lol.

 

That particular BFG is one hell of a guitar for the price...... or at any price for that matter [thumbup] [thumbup] .... It's my best playing guitar I own at the moment.

 

Also glad to see Henry and the Gibson team moving on from this situation [cool]

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That particular BFG is one hell of a guitar for the price...... or at any price for that matter [thumbup] [thumbup] .... It's my best playing guitar I own at the moment.

 

Also glad to see Henry and the Gibson team moving on from this situation [cool]

Yes I actually had one of those (a Gary Moore one)... I loved it so much but couldnt get on with the 50s neck so sold it in the end... If they ever make one with a 60s neck I will sell whatever I have to get one ;) (and was it me or was that one in the vid hand signed by LP? like some of the original ones).

 

This one

DSC01173.jpg

 

And yes its good to see that hopefully business will be getting back to normal.. Hopefully the FEDs at least kept the wood in a suitable enviroment and they arnt all spoiled or something (mind you if they did that Gibson will have a really good case for compensation [thumbup] )

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And let's not forget all the Gibson employees that were and still effected by this situation. Keep in mind all of them have families to support, so I'm sure the umbrella of this situation has added some amount of uncertainty and stress to every Gibson employee. And to all the Gibson Team World Wide, I tip my hat for still being able to manufacture Gibson instruments in the USA at all price levels for musicians at different levels during that time of uncertainty.

 

My first guitar purchased was a Gibson..... My last one will be a Gibson [thumbup]

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All politics and who hit John aside I hope that this silliness at least results in a clarification of the Lacey Act and how it will be enforced in the future.

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What do you think happened to the seized wood from the feds? Hopefully this will get things back on track to business as usual for Gibson and I can concentrate on getting another flying V. [thumbup]

Bet they don't ever get their wood back

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Bet they don't ever get their wood back

Check the video.. they should be getting it back

 

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From what I've read, the Gibson Board feels that the Feds gave them a shakedown. It was guestimated that the legal fees to defend themselves was going to cost between $1 - $3 million. So, $250k is considered a bargain.

 

Now Gibson also claims they did nothing wrong -- mostly nothing. They say that the ebony imported while perfectly legally obtained was indeed finished wood (the Lacey Act forbids unfinished ebony). Although I have also read that it was 'nearly finished.' Apparently there is a very fine line between finished and unfinished and a little more refinement on the Ebony -- just a little bit -- and Gibson would have been in the clear.

 

On to the Political Aspect to this: Gibson is a very conservative company. They did not contribute to Obama in 2008 while many on their boards are very active Republicans: Breaux and Hatch to name two. Gibson's CEO feels that the Obama administration is acting like Chicago thug/gangsters in pursuing this.

 

He has a point when the Administration just in recent days declined to prosecute former Gov. Corzine whose company MF Global lost or lost track of 2 billion dollars in customers funds. They claimed that they got mixed up and accidentally invested customer funds and Lost it in the market. ?? Okay, if they say. Nevertheless, Obama's Justice Dept. just declined to prosecute them for any wrongdoing. Remember Corzine was a major democratic advisor on the Stimulus and advisor to VP Biden, a heavy democratic contributor and power broker and a huge supporter of the president's -- he's been the Democratic Governor of N.J. and of course, the CEO of MF Global, a company that traded for customers.

 

Of course, all and more of what I spoke of is on the record and can easily be Googled. In my opinion, with everything considered, Gibson does seem to have reason to fear the Obama Administration.

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