stein Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 the agreement was pretty simple. To restore it to as original as possible using as many original parts as possible. If there were no gouges ln the top or fret board or sags or bubbles in the finish or if Mr Fox replied to my emails or answered the phone when I called I would not have posted in the 1st place. I am happy to hear at least 1 person defend his past work makes me feel less stupid Emin7 makes some good points about following up with the work as it is being done, but I think it is also a good idea to be specific. What about the fretboard? why was that replaced? Usually a "pro" will outline exactly what task he will do, and have a price for each one. For items he comes across that he didn't plan on, you should get a call before he does it. And if he is competent, he will inspect the guitar first before he gives you a price, and depending on how much he looks into it, he should be able to warn you of items he suspects may or may not have to be done for him to do HIS task. Otherwise, how can he give you a price? A "free for all" do-whatever-you-want for 1300 would concern me enough to either not do it or ask questions, both because it is a lot of money and I would want to know what it is going for, and also what can I expect back, as in WHAT will be done and NOT done for 1300. Personally, I would likely be upset if I got a guitar back and the origonal fretbaord was gone and it had been over-sprayed if I didn't ask for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motherofpearl Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 I'm not sure why the op is catching any flack here?? The issue is the guitar if pfox would ship a guitar out like that it just shows you his integrity. Some people including myself may not have experience with this or any restoration and may not know what questions to ask or how the buisness works! I was on here while pfox was here and he seemed like a great guy. Not one person here can take pauls side in this one. He looked the guitar over and shipped it like that so obviously it was "good enough" that guitar should never have left his shop in that condition Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayyj Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 I don't mean any ill will to the OP, and I feel for him that he has had an unpleasant experience with this guitar. It's absolutely clear there are a number of issues with the work done that are completely unacceptable. The OP is the wronged party and Paul needs to sort this out and make things right. I don't think anyone on this thread is in disagreement on this. There are a couple of points which can be made in the repairer's defence but which haven't been mentioned as yet: No, I'm not keen on that sunburst either, but there were examples of how his sunbursts look on his website for the OP to view before commissioning the restoration. There have also been comments made about the extent of the restoration, but it should be noted that none of us have had this guitar in hand to know the extent of the work needed, in particular what was lurking under the bizarre bridge and whether the top had been thinned in the previous refin. But neither point excuses the other issues. The only point I wanted to make earlier was that threads like this where dozens of people fire off all manner of opinions and negative remarks only serve to fan the flames and make matters worse for the parties directly affected, particularly where one of them is not here to defend himself. But sure, if the repairer is unable or unwilling to sort this out and the OP is out $1300 then I can understand him wanting to warn off others. Still, if the retop underneath the refin was done well and the guitar sounds good, there's still a chance for this guitar to be brought back from the brink, and perhaps if Paul can do that it will go some way to redressing the situation. OP, I have my fingers crossed for you, I really hope this works out better than it looks now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParlourMan Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 I am at a loss as to why the OP would catch some criticism in here, he commissioned the work, expecting a decent restoration, what he received when he opened the package must have come as some sort of heartsinking shock. I agree pfox14 seemed like a nice enough fella, his posts were never controversial or aggressive from my recollection and it was noted the work he'd done on old Gibsons and knowledge of old Gibsons was good. Granted a look at the finishes on his website should put almost anyone off, but it's a reputation based business and at that point his reputation was good. While I can understand some people distaste for the naming & shaming game, it's a little convenient that emails & calls would be answered almost immediately and as son as the work is shipped out contact all but dries up. The account is banned here so we're unlikely to see any resolve on the boards, perhaps hear of some at a later date. The main point for me is if we're going to encourage write up's for great service etc... naturally we want to hear of disasters to avoid too and there's no clearer example than this. We are a community and sometimes news in a community os not always good, just the way life works. O can also understand some people thinking "we shouldn't be attacking a mans livelihood" however, it's the fruits of other peoples livelihood that are funding it, it's completely substandard work, it's visually disturbing unless you're blind and pfox clearly lacks finishing skills, perhaps the structural parts are great, who knows, but what is your perception? Not a single post has defended it overall, not a single poster has said they'd be happy with that work. I doubt you'd find anyone worldwide who'd claim it to be a visually appealing guitar, a big draw of Gibsons is the aesthetic (as well as a sound we like & love) Naming & shaming is always a regrettable step, but its necessary, how many of us in here has the OP saved cash? There's almost constantly 1 or 2 refin projects going on in here, some of that work could have went to pfox and we'd only end up seeing more threads like this. It seems clear the OP has tried to keep it off the boards but the sudden drying up of any contact leaves him no option but to kick back where it hurts, his customer base. Good luck to the OP getting that abomination fixed correctly, it's one of the most hideous jobs I have ever seen and I certainly don't fault him for bringing it to the boards when faced with a 'no further contact' situation when trying to speak to pfox after receiving the guitar. He's paid for an expensive lesson and saved a lot of us the bitter disappointment of paying for and learning the same lesson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-minor7 Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 I'm sure you've heard about the good intentioned Spanish restorer - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Nilppeznaf Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 <br /><font color="#000000"><font face="Times New Roman"><font size="4">I'm sure you've heard about the good intentioned Spanish restorer -</font></font> </font><font face="Times New Roman, serif"><font size="3"><font size="2"><img src="http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm104/zazza09-space/Before-After2.jpg" /></font></font></font><br /><br /><br /><br /> Hahahahaha that photo of an armature restoration of some Spanish Church art has been making me laugh all week. But I feel sorry for the old dear who attempted it. Apparently she has been bed ridden since the whole debacle and the global media interest... poor woman. I have not read all posts here, but it obvious the job done on the guitar is well below standard. I don't think we need posts pontificating on what is right and wrong with discussing someones lively hood and business/ passion. We don't know what has happened to Pfox... and what circumstances he may have been in while doing this job. No contact for the OP sounds ominous also, lets just hope Mr Fox is ok. While I empathize with the OP... that guitar was in very bad condition and at least its better than it was... A refund is in order to get a decent finish. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParlourMan Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 I don't think we need posts pontificating on what is right and wrong with discussing someones lively hood and business/ passion. However, it's an aspect that comes up in every thread like this on guitar forums... Largely down to the drying up of any contact, in such a case. After a few ignored mails and/or calls people start to get frustrated. You did quite a bit of moaning and public criticising yourself not too long ago, Delboy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Nilppeznaf Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 However, it's an aspect that comes up in every thread like this on guitar forums... Largely down to the drying up of any contact, in such a case. After a few ignored mails and/or calls people start to get frustrated. You did quite a bit of moaning and public criticising yourself not too long ago, Delboy... Lol giv it a rest Snideyman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParlourMan Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 Lol giv it a rest Snideyman Hahahaha, truth's a killer, Delboy. wink-wink! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blindboygrunt Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 go and practice you two Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParlourMan Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 go and practice you two Don't knock it, this is how delboy flirts with me, I'm expecting a message asking what I'm wearing at any minute..... Some narrow minded types might scoff but I think this romance could really blossom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-minor7 Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 , , , but I think this romance could really blossom. Ouh yes indeed it could. This is more than a flirt - it's a Hummingbird p-guard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballcorner Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 Next time you have a Gibson restored, take it to Folkway Music in Guelph, Ontario, Canada. It will take more than two months, but it will be done right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimt Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 I would be asking for something to Make it right.. like what you paid to get it done.. Im not sure what the circumstanses were around the deal .. But a Job like that takes time.. alot longer than 2 months.. Ive had a few done in the past.. Neck removed, New Top with New braces,New top Binding, New bridge made. New saddle, Neck set. frets Filed.. refinished the Top.. in a three color.. all for the cost of 3000.00 and 4 months later .. after it was all said and done .. I had a 3000.00 Guitar. and it was nice.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merseybeat1963 Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 When I see the original guitar in the condition it was in...with todays extremely high labor prices, the wisdom of a time consuming restoration is highly questionable,especially when I see a mint condition doll of a Bozeman J45 Custom asking $2K on ebay. Some 25 years ago a dealer I was buying furniture from somehow got the mfg (Henredon)to agree to foot the bill of refinishing a drawer on a cabinet I bought from them a few years before that,which came with a large blemish on it. They paid for the refinish & work was given to a reputable firm on Long Island (NY). When I got it..the color was W A Y off the original..and they refused to make good on it. I couldnt believe that low policy. No honor at all..Henredon had to pay them yet again the same amount to redo it. Beware..Beware..that they back up the work. Now its after the fact but one more thing. A few years ago I went to see my friends Pasqual,Alex & Carlo Greco in NY..at Alex Ax. Carlo was not there but had been making a $7000 guitar for a doctor. The guys were concerned cause this guitar was having some serious finish flaws. Evidently the manufacturer of the finish due to epa bull made some changes to the finish.. he used it as he always had and disaster. In the end, it was too much work to undo..not to mention he had been working with the use of only one eye which resulted in more minor flaws. But when I came to revist, the guitar had been finished..flaws & all..and sounded so good everyone in the room groaned in approval at the sound when i played it.It still was a great guitar. Im using paint all the time & I use the same product over & over..the product has been changing due to epa over the years..maybe something like that happened to this Fox guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
527 Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 What a shame. Has Fox responded at all, or he just disappeared? And you paid top dollar for that work, $1300 is a lot of money. I hope this is the last guitar he works on, posting those pictures of the actual work should take care of that. Anyone who would ship a guitar in that sorry state must not care at all. Restoring a vintage guitar is a lot harder than it looks! I'm glad you shared your bad experience to warn the rest of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 Since this thread refuses to die, I'll throw another log on the fire. If a job like this can take awhile - lets say as little as 100 hours, and you throw in the cost of the materials, I honestly don't think $1,300 is a lot of money. I've often been turned away by an honest luthier whose told me the cost of the work if done right would be much more than what the guitar would be worth when done.. Same is true for vintage cars, watches, etc. That's why some folks resort to new 'vintaged' items. I don't think the OP needs anymore of us outraged here telling him to go get his money back, that PFox should be told he'll never work in this town again, ad nauseum. He needs to decide if the guitar he has now in hand is worth $1,300 plus the value of the guitar before the work was done, and if not what he wants to do about it. If the guitar was worth $500 before the work, I"m not sure you can expect it would be worth more than $1,800 if you only wanted to spend $1,300 on the upgrade. It would be unrealistic to think a luthier is going to hand you back a guitar worth $6K, after working at the equivalent of a yearly salary of $24K a year. I'm sure many of you will take exception to this (not PM, of course). You can pick apart the numbers all you want, but they are for illustrative purposes only. Yes you can buy a manufactured Chinese guitar for less. But just because you can buy a new Korean car for $10K, don't expect to get a junk yard '55 Corvette restored to factory specs for that price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParlourMan Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 Since this thread refuses to die, I'll throw another log on the fire. If a job like this can take awhile - lets say as little as 100 hours, and you throw in the cost of the materials, I honestly don't think $1,300 is a lot of money. I've often been turned away by an honest luthier whose told me the cost of the work if done right would be much more than what the guitar would be worth when done.. Same is true for vintage cars, watches, etc. That's why some folks resort to new 'vintaged' items. I don't think the OP needs anymore of us outraged here telling him to go get his money back, that PFox should be told he'll never work in this town again, ad nauseum. He needs to decide if the guitar he has now in hand is worth $1,300 plus the value of the guitar before the work was done, and if not what he wants to do about it. If the guitar was worth $500 before the work, I"m not sure you can expect it would be worth more than $1,800 if you only wanted to spend $1,300 on the upgrade. It would be unrealistic to think a luthier is going to hand you back a guitar worth $6K, after working at the equivalent of a yearly salary of $24K a year. I'm sure many of you will take exception to this (not PM, of course). You can pick apart the numbers all you want, but they are for illustrative purposes only. Yes you can buy a manufactured Chinese guitar for less. But just because you can buy a new Korean car for $10K, don't expect to get a junk yard '55 Corvette restored to factory specs for that price. I can't quite agree with that ;) ;) ;) I would suspect that PFox was charging more than $13 per hour. As you were....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dchristo Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 Since this thread refuses to die, I'll throw another log on the fire. If a job like this can take awhile - lets say as little as 100 hours, and you throw in the cost of the materials, I honestly don't think $1,300 is a lot of money. I've often been turned away by an honest luthier whose told me the cost of the work if done right would be much more than what the guitar would be worth when done.. Same is true for vintage cars, watches, etc. That's why some folks resort to new 'vintaged' items. I don't think the OP needs anymore of us outraged here telling him to go get his money back, that PFox should be told he'll never work in this town again, ad nauseum. He needs to decide if the guitar he has now in hand is worth $1,300 plus the value of the guitar before the work was done, and if not what he wants to do about it. If the guitar was worth $500 before the work, I"m not sure you can expect it would be worth more than $1,800 if you only wanted to spend $1,300 on the upgrade. It would be unrealistic to think a luthier is going to hand you back a guitar worth $6K, after working at the equivalent of a yearly salary of $24K a year. I'm sure many of you will take exception to this (not PM, of course). You can pick apart the numbers all you want, but they are for illustrative purposes only. Yes you can buy a manufactured Chinese guitar for less. But just because you can buy a new Korean car for $10K, don't expect to get a junk yard '55 Corvette restored to factory specs for that price. with all that said...would you except the guitar in that shape after spending $1300 ? I didnt think so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 I can't quite agree with that ;) ;) ;) I would suspect that PFox was charging more than $13 per hour. As you were....... Glad we can still agree on the important things... Ummm I forgot, was it string choice or pick thickness? Have a good weekend ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 Since this thread refuses to die, I'll throw another log on the fire. If a job like this can take awhile - lets say as little as 100 hours, and you throw in the cost of the materials, I honestly don't think $1,300 is a lot of money. I've often been turned away by an honest luthier whose told me the cost of the work if done right would be much more than what the guitar would be worth when done.. Same is true for vintage cars, watches, etc. That's why some folks resort to new 'vintaged' items. I don't think the OP needs anymore of us outraged here telling him to go get his money back, that PFox should be told he'll never work in this town again, ad nauseum. He needs to decide if the guitar he has now in hand is worth $1,300 plus the value of the guitar before the work was done, and if not what he wants to do about it. If the guitar was worth $500 before the work, I"m not sure you can expect it would be worth more than $1,800 if you only wanted to spend $1,300 on the upgrade. It would be unrealistic to think a luthier is going to hand you back a guitar worth $6K, after working at the equivalent of a yearly salary of $24K a year. I'm sure many of you will take exception to this (not PM, of course). You can pick apart the numbers all you want, but they are for illustrative purposes only. Yes you can buy a manufactured Chinese guitar for less. But just because you can buy a new Korean car for $10K, don't expect to get a junk yard '55 Corvette restored to factory specs for that price. You make a good point. And I agree that for the ITEMS done to the guitar, 1300 would be an excelent price. But for the quality of the work shown in the photos, it isn't 1300 worth of work. I don't claim to know what was needed on the guitar or EXACTLY what condition it was in, but for a new top and some minor finish work, 1300 sounds about right for a average quality job. And with a job like this, it looks to me that it is actually so bad that you have to consider the cost of reversing the damage done to it wouldn't you? There ARE some reasonable explanations as to why a job like this would have happened or left the shop, but not a reasonable explanation as to why it would leave the shop, charge 1300 bucks and not return calls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeljohnr Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 I might have missed it in a previous reply, but did the OP get detailed photos of the completed job before he paid the invoice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickjwill Posted September 3, 2012 Author Share Posted September 3, 2012 I might have missed it in a previous reply, but did the OP get detailed photos of the completed job before he paid the invoice? I asked for photos during the restoration. I got seemingly plausible excuses why none were possible. When the restoration was done and he wanted the balance, I stated that I wanted photos before I paid the invoice. He sent me 4 photos that looked like they were taken by a cell phone. But maybe he's just a crappy photographer? None were detailed. The only serious issue I saw in the photos was the one of the head stock front. What looked like orange peel (which can be rubbed out)turned out to be bubbles in the finish. The blotchy sunburst was apparent and if the sunburst and the orange peel were the only issues this thread would not exist.. Also I feel I need to add that in my opinion when we buy or inherit a vintage guitar, (or any vintage instrument, car, motorcycle, etc.) we owe it to society to try to preserve it as much as possible and in this instance I have failed by making a lousy decision in sending it to this guy. It happened on my watch & I sincerely apologize and will do my best to get it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
62burst Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 No need to apologize. It's just a guitar. We've all got to start somewhere. I'd like to see if there's still a song or two in the old box. I bet it ain't so broke that it can't be fixed. Best to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motherofpearl Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 Has he contacted you to make it right?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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