More ES-3x9 Questions

[mrfett]

I recently purchased two ES-3x9s in two different colors (Vintage Sunburst and Pelham Blue). I decided to sell the VS and keep the PB based solely on color. Shallow yes I know. I made that decision before thoroughly playing the PB. I decided to sell the VS before I received it so when it came I pretty much took pictures of it, made sure it worked and packed it up.

 

It sold last night and I had this nagging desire to make sure it sounded the same as the one I kept, so you can probably see where this is going... unboxed it, strummed it unplugged and was FLOORED at how much louder and resonant it was compared to the one I decided to keep. I've been playing the PB for a week and trying to figure out why it sounds so dead when played clean.

 

So here are my questions: the VS is a 2011, while the PB is 2010. Did Gibson start shipping these with the vintage no wire bridges last year? I ask because the PB has a chrome ABR-1 WITH a wire, while the VS has a gold ABR-1 WITHOUT a wire (and no holes for one). I saw no evidence that the gold bridge is aftermarket: the posts are gold and they don't look like they've ever been touched (the guitar doesn't seem to have ever been played honestly. I made a bad decision about which one to keep).

 

Second, is there a recommended action for these kind of guitars? The action on the PB is lower than on the VS. It's very low. I hear a little bit of rattle when unplugged. I don't think it's fret buzz though, it might be that wire on the bridge, not sure. Would a higher action on the PB give me more volume and resonance? Both guitars are strung with 10s, I don't know the brands though. The strings feel the same on both guitars.

 

I am planning to do the "MapleFlame Mod" where you replace the studs with slightly longer ones made of stainless steel. I'm also going to replace the tailpiece with a lightweight aluminum one. What I really want is to have the PB guitar sound like the VB one that I stupidly sold. Can a new setup alone get me there, or is the no-wire vintage bridge possibly a factor as well?

 

Gibson doesn't make a no-wire vintage bridge in chrome, which is perhaps why the PB doesn't have one. If I'm going to replace the bridge I'd probably have to get one with a nickel finish and deal with it. Before I do I'm hoping someone can give me an informed opinion on whether there's any hope for this pretty but dull sounding guitar. Thanks!

 

(I obscured the model name because I don't want to hurt my resale options if I decide this guitar isn't for me. Hope that's ok.)

[mrfett]

Oh and one other thing: the sustain on the VS was noticeably better than on the PB. Another reason I'm leaning toward an entirely new bridge.

[bobouz]

In case you haven't done it already, a fresh set of strings might help. You may want to try a set of Gibson's "Vintage Reissue" pure nickel 10s. Beyond that & FWIW, I'll share my own experience. When purchasing my 339 in '09, I was fortunate enough to be able to A-B three of them side by side. The one I bought & still have was by far more lively & resonant unplugged than the other two, which by comparison sounded dull & lifeless. Same basic thing happened when purchasing my first 335, my Elitist Casino, and most recently my 330 VOS, where in each case having the opportunity to sample multiple guitars side by side revealed very significant differences in unplugged tone. These differences almost always seem to have a corresponding impact on the plugged in-tone as well. Don't know how much of a change the bridge & tailpiece mods will make, but sometimes small tweaks can produce noticeable results & then you can assess the tone on it's own unique merits. Best of luck with dialing it in.

[mrfett]

thanks bobouz i'll try getting it set up. The action is ridiculously low so maybe that's having an effect on the resonance and sustain as well. i'll report back.

[clayville]

Clearly sometimes identical models can sounds markedly different... but before you go modding your PB with aftermarket parts, stainless studs and replacement bridges and tailpieces, etc I'd make a serious run at studying the geometry of this particular guitar and seeing if simple, free, screwdriver adjustments can improve your results with this guitar (and before the VS one ends up on a pedestal of idealised memory).

 

My experience with my CS-356 is that the small-bodied Gibsons seem to respond tremendously to even the smallest adjustments - which can make them challenging to dial-in. But also very fun to dial-in. Doing it yourself can help get you to the sound you want, instead of to a shop's "middle-of-the-road" notion of an average setup.

 

When I say "study the geometry", I mean primarily that the whole nut/strings/bridge/tailpiece mechanism has to work together to tranmit vibration to the body. Notice how much break angle you have from the tuners to the nut, from the bridge to the tailpiece. Look at how far off the deck your tailpiece is, how far your strings are from the frets and from the pickups... See if you can adjust the way these distances interact to enhance the "coupling" and transferance of sound from the strings to the guitar. The strings need a "clean and sharp" angle of take off from the nut towards the bridge so that no unwanted overtones are created there by sloppy string vibration. You want to check for excess rattles in the intonation adjustment screws. I do buy into the notion that getting the tailpiece as low to the body as you can without the strings hitting the back of the bridge is a good idea on these guitars. True confession: mine sounds best to me with the tailpiece as low as it will go, but with the strings top-wrapped: I insert the ball-end from the pickup side, out the back of the tailpiece and wrap over the top of it on my way to the nut. (Your mileage may vary). I also have found that first carefully protecting your top and then using the edge of a flathead screwdriver to push a tightening kink into your ABR wire can eliminate any rattles there quite easily. Mine sounds good with the factory spec'd .10" strings I usually use, but it sounds stronger acoustically with .11s". Anything less sounds quite poor, so I'd check that first.

 

Similarly, small adjustments to the polepiece and pickup height can make a world of difference in your plugged-in sound too. And that's the sound that matters most.

 

Finding the "sweet spot" on all these normal adjustments takes time and experimentation - but they're all free and reversible mods.

 

I don't mean to be telling you things you likely already know, but I do mean to suggest that you can make a huge difference in the sound with just a screwdriver and some careful listening. I certainly found that to be the case with my CS-356. Good luck.

[BigKahune]

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For those interested, here's the link to the "Mapleflame" bridge mod - http://forum.gibson.com/index.php?/topic/23783-mapleflame-mod-for-es-339/page__p__323382__hl__mapleflame__fromsearch__1#entry323382

 

 

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[mrfett]

Clearly sometimes identical models can sounds markedly different... but before you go modding your PB with aftermarket parts, stainless studs and replacement bridges and tailpieces, etc I'd make a serious run at studying the geometry of this particular guitar and seeing if simple, free, screwdriver adjustments can improve your results with this guitar (and before the VS one ends up on a pedestal of idealised memory).

 

My experience with my CS-356 is that the small-bodied Gibsons seem to respond tremendously to even the smallest adjustments - which can make them challenging to dial-in. But also very fun to dial-in. Doing it yourself can help get you to the sound you want, instead of to a shop's "middle-of-the-road" notion of an average setup.

...

 

Finding the "sweet spot" on all these normal adjustments takes time and experimentation - but they're all free and reversible mods.

 

I don't mean to be telling you things you likely already know, but I do mean to suggest that you can make a huge difference in the sound with just a screwdriver and some careful listening. I certainly found that to be the case with my CS-356. Good luck.

 

This is great advice, thank you clayville. I'm new to Gibsons and TOMs but I'll take a stab at this now. Off to Google "Setting up a Gibson". It's very kind of you guys to help, thanks.

[mrfett]

When adjusting things, am I right that the only parameters I really have control over are the height of the tailpiece (how far I have the pole pieces screwed in), the height of the bridge and the truss rod? Unless the nut is cut too shallow, there's nothing I can really do with it, right? I'm concerned the nut is cut too deep as the action on those first few frets is incredibly low and raising the bridge seems to only make the action high on the upper frets. Then again I had the strings off for a few hours so I'm hoping after my restring last night when I get home the neck will have settled a little (when I restrung there seemed to be way more relief in the neck than I remembered).

 

I had the strings off because I decided to go ahead and change the tailpiece and do the MapleFlame Mod. In case someone is wondering, the stock bridge stud was maybe an inch long and maybe a quarter of that was in the wood. I replaced it with a 2 inch screw and sunk it in an additional inch easy. My initial impression was that the guitar was much louder not plugged in and that it had greater sustain, but honestly I was falling asleep while tuning (the whole process took this amateur quite a while) so I'm hesitant to say much until I've played it in a non-drowsy state.

 

Again, I'm very appreciative of the support and advice, thanks!

[BigKahune]

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Raising the bridge will always have minimal effect on the action in the first few frets - it's inherent in the large distance between the nut and bridge. As for neck relief, did you restring with a heavier gauge set of strings?

 

You can control/adjust the stop height, bridge height on both the treble and bass sides, string length with the saddles and the neck relief with the truss rod. You can also lower the action at the nut by deepening the nut slots. And you can raise the action at the nut by using a folded bit of paper or wood shims whittled from a toothpick (just loosen the string, pull it out of it's nut slot, drop in the shim, put the string back and tune). This will allow you to try a higher string height to see if you'll like the difference. If you like it higher, mix some baking soda in some cyanoacrylate (super glue) and put it in the nut slot. Let it dry and file to the height you want - or have a tech make a new nut.

 

 

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[mrfett]

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Raising the bridge will always have minimal effect on the action in the first few frets - it's inherent in the large distance between the nut and bridge. As for neck relief, did you restring with a heavier gauge set of strings?

 

...And you can raise the action at the nut by using a folded bit of paper or wood shims whittled from a toothpick (just loosen the string, pull it out of it's nut slot, drop in the shim, put the string back and tune). This will allow you to try a higher string height to see if you'll like the difference. If you like it higher, mix some baking soda in some cyanoacrylate (super glue) and put it in the nut slot. Let it dry and file to the height you want - or have a tech make a new nut.

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No I put 10s back on it. It was without strings for hours though. Thanks for the nut info, that's all new to me. Very helpful!

[bobouz]

If you like it higher, mix some baking soda in some cyanoacrylate (super glue) and put it in the nut slot. Let it dry and file to the height you want - or have a tech make a new nut.

For this particular trick, I file some bone into powder, fill the nut slot with the powdered bone, and then put a tiny drop of super glue on the powder in the slot (be sure to protect the fretboard & headstock adjacent to the slot). Then file the slot as desired.

[mrfett]

Well good news, the guitar is playing and sounding fantastic after my small tweaks! I brought it into the local repair guy just to make sure it wasn't confirmation bias and he thought it felt and played great. I also sat down with some other semi-hollows in the store and was very pleased with how mine compared. I'm still wondering if maybe it was the strings lol but regardless the thing is awesome and I get happy thinking about it so I'm perfectly satisfied. The action is fine now, and the repair guy didn't think the nut needed any work.

 

In my panic I purchased a Callaham bridge and I'll eventually get that installed but for now I'm going to enjoy it the way it is. Thanks to everyone who pointed me in the right direction, it all worked out splendidly!

[clayville]

Glad that worked out!