Subtleties of tone, feel and touch

[AlanH]

As Gibson owners we have in our hands potential tone monsters. Stringed musical instruments of any sort can be played in various ways and, although I can't read music myself, I know that a musical score is littered with italian translations for loud, soft, quickly, slowly, varying pitch etc. Anyway, as my playing improves I'm starting to appreciate more how I can get specific tones and can sound exactly like the record using specific techniques. Here's an example....

 

I'm currently learning ZZ Top's Sharp Dressed Man and I've looked at several internet tabs to help me so far. Now there is a small pattern (G, A#, B,) and then C chord in that song that you probably can hear in your mind when I tell you it's the one that Gibbons repeats after he sings each piece of attire in the lyric: silk suit; black tie etc. The tabs tell us that the chord is a C5 dyad played in the third position. However, a C5 dyad just doesn't sound right. Now when you look at Gibbons playing the song on a live clip he's actually fingering an open C looking chord. I think I've worked out that that particular C chord is a form where only two fingers depress frets: the ring finger frets the C (fret 3) on the A string and the forefinger frets the C (fret 1) on the B string. Not only is the chord completely different to C5 but Gibbons also uses a trick to get that swell effect of that chord you hear on the record. What I think he does is to very gently and slowly stroke the middle four strings starting from the A but that ring finger that is fretting C on the A string also dampens out the D string at the same time. To be able to pull this fingering off you also need to flex your wrist and come at it more from above so you don't fret any bad notes; because if you get this chord even slightly wrong it sounds awful!

 

Sorry to bore you with a long winded description of my interpretation but I think this shows how much of a difference subtle fingerings and techniques can make. In the case of this particular track I think that the way that chord is actually played makes for part of the hook of the song.

 

Anyway, has anybody else got any similar experiences or tips to share? Do you like experimenting with fingering, feel and touch (and no I didn't mean that sort!)

[CowboyBillyBob1]

Here is one that many of you may know but I bet there are plenty that don't.

Probably the most definitive Rock riff is Smoke on the Water by Deep Purple yet it is played wrong by loads of players.

 

The wrong way is to play G5-Bb5-C5/ G5-Bb5- Db5-C5/ G5-Bb5-C5-Bb5-G5. They play this power chord with the root of the chord on the bottom with the 5th on top. This is totally wrong.

 

The chords are correct but it's played as a 4th shape ie the 5th on the bottom and the root on top. In addition it is finger or hybrid picked meaning that it is not strummed but both notes played simultaneously.

 

If you don't play it this way give it a try and a light bulb will come over your head and you will swear Richie Blackmore has taken over your body.

 

If you all know this already than I am sorry to have wasted your time. Bottom line is that small details can make a huge difference.

[AlanH]

Good one, Paul. I do play that one as 4th dyads rather than power chords. I also like songs that use the guitar pick and middle finger simultaneous picking. Angus Young is an expert at that- The intro to For Those About to Rock is a good example although they're not all 4th dyads on that track.

 

Smoke on the Water, like many, is the first thing I did on a guitar as a kid. That version was just single notes on the low E string. We've probably all been there but it's as good an introduction as any to fretting notes on a guitar.

[rocketman]

Jimmy Page was master of subtleties. The lick to Whole Lotta Love is a perfect example. Tabs have it down as E (repeated) then B-D-B-D. This is technically correct but Page has a twist. When he plays the D he plays it on the open A string at the 5th fret and the open D string. The twist is that he slightly bends the A string while picking both strings, which gives it a very cool sound. You can hear it well here.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVfLTasv_Fc&feature=related

[CowboyBillyBob1]

Jimmy Page was master of subtleties. The lick to Whole Lotta Love is a perfect example. Tabs have it down as E (repeated) then B-D-B-D. This is technically correct but Page has a twist. When he plays the D he plays it on the open A string at the 5th fret and the open D string. The twist is that he slightly bends the A string while picking both strings, which gives it a very cool sound. You can hear it well here.

 

That's a good one. You have to be real subtle on the bend because if you go just a bit too far it sounds like poop. If you do it right than it makes the riff killer.

[FirstMeasure]

I've watched the Revs fingers intently from the third row to figure out just what you're talking about (along with some other bluesy voicings he does),

 

He plays the C in open position, but he skips the Third (E note on the A string), sounding the Root/Fifth/Root chord with some hybrid picking. He picks the root C with the pick and fingers the fifth/root on the 2nd and 3rd string.

 

The A#-B-C move should be slid or hammered, not picked. To really sell it, hit a pinch harmonic on the C.

[kaleb]

I know of many Alex Lifeson parts that are appropriate in this thread.

 

Just the other day I found out that I was playing "The Trees" wrong the whole time.....

[AlanH]

I've watched the Revs fingers intently from the third row to figure out just what you're talking about (along with some other bluesy voicings he does),

 

He plays the C in open position, but he skips the Third (E note on the A string), sounding the Root/Fifth/Root chord with some hybrid picking. He picks the root C with the pick and fingers the fifth/root on the 2nd and 3rd string.

 

The A#-B-C move should be slid or hammered, not picked. To really sell it, hit a pinch harmonic on the C.

 

I meant to say G - A sharp - C. I'll try yours. Interesting that he actually does that C chord variation picked rather than swept as I thought.

 

3rd row seat eh? The things people do to avoid the errors in tab.

[CowboyBillyBob1]

Some of this stuff is just idiosyncratic to the artist. Do you really want to copy a guys style so exactly that you make the same mistakes they make? I don't want to do that but there are some things that are just blatantly out there on how to play a tune correctly.

 

Say you have copied SRV's style exactly. What have you really accomplished? Not much. Maybe for your own ego but better to take some of his technique and incorporate it into your own.

I saw somewhere that a guy was trying to teach how to play Zep's Whole lotta Love. The guy was doing it in the first position which is just wrong.

[FirstMeasure]

I meant to say G - A sharp - C. I'll try yours. Interesting that he actually does that C chord variation picked rather than swept as I thought.

 

3rd row seat eh? The things people do to avoid the errors in tab.

I hate inaccurate tab! LOL

 

Actually, it's kind of a cool story. My brother and I went to Laughlin NV to see ZZ. We had bleacher seats, and it was a good show. The next morning we see on the marquee that they added another day to the stop!! So we run right down to the box office to get what ever seats we can. The guy pulls out a seating chart and points to a block of seats in the third row, "We have some seating here". In shock, we ask how much. "$50 buck each, but we have $30 seats back here..."

 

He must have thought our shock was at the price, we were shocked that we could get third row for $50 the day of the concert, when we were just at a crowded sold out show the night before. It was meant to be!!

[FirstMeasure]

Some of this stuff is just idiosyncratic to the artist. Do you really want to copy a guys style so exactly that you make the same mistakes they make? I don't want to do that but there are some things that are just blatantly out there on how to play a tune correctly.

 

Say you have copied SRV's style exactly. What have you really accomplished? Not much. Maybe for your own ego but better to take some of his technique and incorporate it into your own.

I saw somewhere that a guy was trying to teach how to play Zep's Whole lotta Love. The guy was doing it in the first position which is just wrong.

I agree with what you're saying, but sometimes there's that elusive riff or run that just bugs you till you get it right. And, of course, depending on what you do, completely copping someones style could land you a high paying gig in Vegas.

 

But really, when you're playing a cover it does come off better when you play the riff the way the original artist did.

[rocketman]

I know of many Alex Lifeson parts that are appropriate in this thread.

 

Just the other day I found out that I was playing "The Trees" wrong the whole time.....

 

What did you think you were doing wrong?

[kaleb]

What did you think you were doing wrong?

 

The chord pattern in the main verse.

[CowboyBillyBob1]

But really, when you're playing a cover it does come off better when you play the riff the way the original artist did.

You see I do not agree with that at all. It's like Hendrix playing All Along the Watchtower exactly like Dylan. What would be the point in that? I love hearing people do their own interpretation on songs. That's what makes an artist.

How about Johnny Cash doing Hurt? He made that song his own. I have seen bands not nearly as famous as Jimi or Johnny do their thing with a tune and it always grabs my attention more than a copy cat.

Here is a great example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lul-Y8vSr0I

[FirstMeasure]

You see I do not agree with that at all. It's like Hendrix playing All Along the Watchtower exactly like Dylan. What would be the point in that? I love hearing people do their own interpretation on songs. That's what makes an artist.

How about Johnny Cash doing Hurt? He made that song his own. I have seen bands not nearly as famous as Jimi or Johnny do their thing with a tune and it always grabs my attention more than a copy cat.

Here is a great example:

 

LOL, I love that Shatner thing!

 

But as far as changing a song, I seldom like the remake better than the original. It's one thing when Hendrix does his take on Dylan, it's a whole other thing when "Unimaginative Clown" does it.

 

Pantera's take on Sabbath tunes is kind of irritating. George Thurogood's Take on anything just serves to detract from the originals. He would have benefited from closer examination of the original material.

 

The Grateful Dead is fun to watch, but they don't do anything better than the original recording.

[milod]

I think a lot has to do with what exactly you're attempting.

 

I remember as a kid trying to get exactly the notes and stuff for this or that piece and never was satisfied.

 

Then I came across classical guitar and realized there are nuances that never can be repeated even by the same player regardless of skill - and then the question of interpretation. E.g., should a guitar version of Bach's "jesu, joy of man's desiring" sound as though it were done on a harpsichord? That's ludicrous.

 

So if even a Bach piece can't be matched, even if note for note... what are the opportunities for "me," you, or whomever?

 

It's a mind set, I think, that got my head thinking very differently. Do I wanna sound like BB or Albert King or ... like me? The concept of a song and certain aspects that I find appealing are of importance to me, though.

 

So... I guess it comes down to what you want to do and what your audiences really expect from a given act. If you dress up like Kiss, I think they expect something very close to what they heard on records.

 

Youtube and such, though, has so many pieces played as 'versions' as opposed to 'attempted copies' that I think we may be heading back to the pre-television era of music when each band basically did their own arranging for their player's and band composition's strengths rather than an attempt to get exactly the instrumentation and "tone" of somebody else.

 

m

[FirstMeasure]

I do agree with everything Milo just said, to a point.

 

Interpretations of standards and blues tunes, or folk tunes (it's all folk to me) by someone who can interpret is one thing. Listening to someone play a poorly rendered version of something because they lack the skills or knowledge, then have them say it's because of their style is a cop out. I hate to be "That Guy", but there is an awful lot of copping out when it comes to guys who cover.

 

It's one thing when George Benson interprets a song. However, George Thurogood is the biggest, most wide selling cop out artist in history if you ask me.

 

At least Jerry Garcia admitted that their style of interpretation was due to their limitations. "What some people call style, I call limitations" was pretty much his exact quote. But you listen to Clapton cover an old standard, and even though it's completely Clapton, the important elements of the original are represented in the piece.

 

The difference between knowing their onions and not is apparent in the interpretation.

[milod]

I wouldn't argue at all.

 

My favorite example, in fact, came before I was born.

 

Bea Wain singing Deep Purple for the Larry Clinton orchestra was #1 for nine weeks. I love Wain's voice but Clinton's arrangement was to me awfully, awfully sparse. Too sparse.

 

My favorite version personally is Artie Shaw's with Helen Forrest.

 

In fact, the piece originally had been written as a piano instrumental.

 

It was done as doowop and as an "I don't know what you call the style" rock hit in '63.

 

I think Fats Waller did an early version of it too, but I've not heard it.

 

Bottom line is that good musicians can make a good version of a great song; if there's a "special angle" even a mediocre sort of talent can do well with a totally different version.

 

I guess you sorta pay your money and take your choice - 'cuz I don't think stuff really has changed since then except that the idea of a "cover band" sometimes seeks an almost note for note copy.

 

In the swing era, different bands' different instrumentation gave a bit more potential for something great.

 

Another... "You belong to me" that Stafford did in the '50s that got covered doo-wop and more recently in a breathy urban-folk sorta style for television.

 

I guess I just look at decent versions as just that, as long as they're done with skill and talent.

 

m

[FirstMeasure]

Often, Note for Note copies feel less like the original that someone who know how to sell it. I use Clapton as an example a lot 'cause he plays from a lot of different approaches.

 

If there's a Clapton song where he's wailing away on a blues scale in B, then wailing away on a blues scale in B will come off more like the original than trying to get exactly every note he played on the original recording.

[FirstMeasure]

I was learning a song last night and realized there was an instance we hadn't touched on yet.

 

What do you do when you're trying to learn a song as close to the original as possible, but realize there's a mistake in the original recording that the producers left in because it was the most lively take. Zeppelin and Stevie ray are notorious for leaving in little "mistakes" and happenstances.

 

There's nothing harder than trying to imitate someone's mistake.

[10K-DB]

Its all about what you feel when your with your instrument,,Ive been in HS Jazz/Fushion bands,,20+ yrs of t-40 clubs ,,concert clubs . I dont read music{tab}. chord charts I can read,I do know every name of notes on neck ,chord names ect. Im self taught @ 11 yrs old. I learned at first by playing to the rock music records my older brother+ sister were listening to back when. I missed out on some technical training thru the yrs,but gained priceless knowlege from just getting out there and playing live,.learning from bandmates ect. Each gtr we all own,,we own for certain reasons,,IE feel,,playing action,,,tones,,ect. And for me,,I play a bit different,depending on which axe Im playing,resulting in different sounds from each axe.

[FirstMeasure]

I'm gonna quote BB King and then call it good.

 

"If I had it all to do over again I'd finish High School, go to college, major in music and minor in business." - BB King from A&E's BB King Live by Request.