HKC Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 Hi everybody I posted this in another part of the forum but got no replies so now I try here A friend of mine has inherited an old ES 175. The serial no is 17946 which indicates that it's from 1961. Sadly the neck has been broken along the way and was repaired quite poorly so the value of the actual guitar may not be that much. My question is "what about the pickups", these are the original PAFs and I have seen these for sale at a very high price but I wonder what the realistic price is for these. I have seen them for sale for over $10.000 but are they really worth anything like that, and if yes then WHY .... And why is it that there are quite a few ES175 for sale with original PAFs for less than when they are sold seperately. Please chip in, I am no vintage Gibson expert by any means. Here's a couple of links for something on ebay right now: http://www.ebay.com/...=item3f1d2fc4f1 http://www.ebay.com/...=item1c2bdb158b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveinspain Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 Both of your links don't show anything.... As far as your, are the really worth it question... If you are a collector and buy into the hype your answer will be yes. To most people with common sense, no way... Remember the old saying, some thing is worth whatever someone will pay for it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L5Larry Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 The quick simple answer to your PAF question is..... Don't confuse ASKING PRICE for SELLING PRICE! If the 175 in question has been that badly damaged, and poorly repaired, then the unfortunate fact is that the individual parts are worth more separately than the assembled guitar. There is quite a market for "vintage" parts, especially PAF pickups, but not at ridiculous prices. MANY older guitars in perfect condition are being destroyed by parts hounds thinking there going to get rich on a few guitar parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanH Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 Help dating an ES175????? Treat her gently and with respect, take her out every now and again to make her feel special...... .....and remember, whatever you might think, she's the boss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKC Posted October 7, 2012 Author Share Posted October 7, 2012 Thanks for the replies so far. I am not interested in the guitar myself and the one who has inherited the guitar doesn't play and just want to make as much money from it as possible and has asked me what I would think she can realistically expect. I post the link again but I still find it incredible that a couple of old magnets and a bit of wire can be worth anything like that. The question is what is realistic. I would have guessed something like 10% of what this guy wants. http://www.ebay.com/itm/1959-Gibson-PAF-Humbucker-pickup-Set-of-2-DOUBLE-WHITES-Real-Vintage-59-Les-Paul-/271072609521?pt=Guitar&hash=item3f1d2fc4f1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 The value of your PAFs depends to a large degree on what colour of bobbins they have under the covers. The going rate for an 'ordinary' (Double-Black) original PAF was around $2,500 a short while back (Kim LaFleur, Vintage Checkout). Whether anyone is still paying that price is a moot point but if so then, obviously, your p-ups are worth $5K. The pair advertised for 16K are what are known as 'Double Whites'. These are the rarest type of PAF, hence the constant stressing of the bobbin colour in the ad. For a brief period in '59 the dye used to colour the bobbins black was unavailable and the plastic manufacturers asked Gibson if they would accept cream-coloured bobbins instead. Gibson agreed. This led to PAFs being made with, firstly, one black and one white bobbin (Zebras) and then two white bobbins. Collectors prize Double-Whites purely on their rarity. P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Last I knew, I thought PAF's were going for about 2k-2500. The reason, and the ONLY reason that such high prices can be justified, is for those looking to restore an origonal that lacks the real parts , using the ORIGONAL parts. This is why some genuine parts, that are rare, can command such high prices, and the value of the instrument they would go in has as much to do with it. And has been stated, ASKING and SELLING prices are NOT the same. A lot of times, poeple tend to look at vintage parts suppliers as a reference, and want to inflate on those prices. But the fact is, these parts suppliers CAN ask high prices because they have many parts, and can be a "go to" supply for those who really need them, and as a last resort. AND they usually have expertise in what they are selling. The random seller on EBAY usually does not. The best REAL price of what a certain part is worth is either what a parts supplier will give, or less than what they sell for at retail. Or, what you can get on EBAY or the like. But I wouldn't count on getting the same money as what you see a parts supplier asking for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bender 4 Life Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 i wouldn't bother with flowers or candy, but a little alcohol and good hands should get her to put out real well........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKC Posted October 8, 2012 Author Share Posted October 8, 2012 Thanks for the replies again I don't have the guitar with me and the owner is away on holiday so I can't check the colour of the bobbins. I doubt that they are white because the guitars serial no indicates that the guitar is from 1961 (The serial no is 17946). Can anybody confirm that this is a 1961 model, old Gibson serial numbers are a lot harder to place in time than ie Gretsch which I know a bit about. I still think that 4-5000 dollars is a lot of money and I'm sure that the owner will be pleased to when she finds out but of course I can see the point if you have an all original guitar except for the PAFs. I can also see the idea of stealing them from an ES175 since it's probably the least sought after model with PAFs from that period. The next question is of course "what state are the pickups in". The guitar probably hasn't been plugged in for 40 years or so. If they work and she decides to sell the PAFs separately I will see if I can try them out and compare them to the Lollar Imperials I have on my SG. They suddenly seem very, very cheap :-) All the best HKC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff-7 Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 I have little experience and even less knowledge on those old electrics but I think I remember reading of cases where the pickups are sometimes older than the guitar so it might be worth looking into when she returns. Someone else could probably tell you more from the pot codes (if they had them back then) as to when they were produced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKC Posted October 9, 2012 Author Share Posted October 9, 2012 The interesting thing seems to be the colour of the bobbins. That's so strange since you can't even tell without taking the guitar apart. I will certainly check it and from the state the guitar is in there is no doubt that it's worth more when splitting it into parts. What else is worth anything on such a guitar, the pots, the tuners, the bridge. That is basically all there is I think. Like I said in the first mail, the neck has been broken 40 years ago (around the 12th fret) and poorly fixed and on top of that pretty much all the neckbindings have fallen off. When I see what you can get ES175 wise on Ebay I would never buy this guitar except if I needed the spares. Luckily for her they seem to be worth quite a bit on their own Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 The interesting thing seems to be the colour of the bobbins. That's so strange since you can't even tell without taking the guitar apart... Well, there's more weirdness to come... Untouched solder is considered desirable by collectors. If you look through the spiel of the first link in your OP you'll read how the seller checked the colour of the bobbins without disturbing the solder. (They are now being offered for $4k less that a few days ago, BTW.) ...What else is worth anything on such a guitar, the pots, the tuners, the bridge. That is basically all there is I think... Yes. All of those things you mention. Assuming the instrument has all the original fittings pretty much everything which can be removed undamaged will have value. Even things which initially might seem beneath consideration will have a certain value such as the truss-rod cover; the pickguard and fittings; the pickup rings; the toggle switch; the tailpiece; the jack socket and cover plate etc...etc... If the holly peghead veneer with the Gibson logo could be removed from the wood without it being destroyed that, too, would have a market. As all the plastic parts can break on an old and well-used guitar there will always be a small band of players - and, of course collectors - on the lookout for period-correct spares. I doubt the owner will be much interested in hearing it but the neck could, of course, be fixed. An excellent luthier could make it almost as good as new.... Jus' sayin'. P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKC Posted October 10, 2012 Author Share Posted October 10, 2012 I am afraid the owner is only interested in making the most money from it. The guitar has a sad history. The original owner died quite young in the early 70s and the guitar hasn't been played since then. While keeping it in the case made the bindings fall off, it kept all the other fragile plastic quite safe and therefore all the plastic parts you mention are there. If the neck hadn't been broken it would be in incredible shape (except for the bindings). Thanks for the replies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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