Ulhuru Posted December 2, 2008 Posted December 2, 2008 Hi, Just about to order one, but: Is there more info somewhere on the RIP and I/Os in general? ( I could do with more about that on the web site, perhaps some diagrams, etc) - Hex connector on RIP is an IN or an OUT? - How many connector(s) on the Guitar? I have seen a stereo jack only... - How go you go analog in a soundcard with the Hex/ 6 piezos ? (With the optional adapter?) - Then, can you go 6x (Hex) analog AND Hex to a Roland or Axon at the same time? - Can you have Magnetic on one Out of the RIP, Piezo on the other ? - Can you have Magnetic on one Out, Piezo on the other and also the Hex ? - The link beteen Guitar and RIP is analog or multiplexed digital or both? - Can you go straight into an amp from the guitar without RIP? * - On Firewire out, do you have separate signals for: Magnetic, Piezos, Hex? - And Mix of Magnetic and Piezo?? Thanks for your help, Pierre-André * Since the Guitar can hold 500 tunings, it means it can do that without the RIP and its PSU connected, so supposedly yes the guitar also outputs "regular" analog. - And since it is a stereo jack, supposedly Magnetic & Piezo?
nolongermike@gibson Posted December 3, 2008 Posted December 3, 2008 Hey, I'm going to answer what I know about, and leave the others until I get a firm answer for you. It looks are though the Hex connector goes out, which would assume the decoding work happens in the RIP and then sends it to the soon coming optional device that will let you connect it to the various MIDI guitar products out on the market. One stereo jack only on the guitar. Single input, uses TRS connections. You go analog with the Hex for the acoustic sounds, the optional device is what will soon allow multiple outs like the Digital guitar uses. I have not seen it yet, only heard it described. Since everything I had heard described worked flawlessly when i finally got to spend some time with Dark Fire, I have no reason to expect anything but great things from the coming options. As I understand it, coming out of the RIP, you could have magnetic on one side, "acoustic" on the other, but not the single channel six-string outs of the Hex from the 1/4" output on back of the RIP. The link between the guitar and the RIP is analog. Its a 1/4" TRS cable. Yes, you can plug in directly to an amp without the RIP. I'll get clarification on the FW question, because as I saw it, it looked like two ins and two outs represented in my Audio/MIDI settings for Live, which would mean it would take both the magnetic and piezo acoustic sounds directly. The other options coming from the later to come optional device that will take the decoded signal and spread it to analog outputs allow you to do the multi-string tricks that the original Digital guitar from Gibson did. Yes, about 500 times without recharging is the estimate for the battery life now, and the rate the thing tunes up is astonishing. It really is. Zip, zip, tuned. Hi' date=' Just about to order one, but: Is there more info somewhere on the RIP and I/Os in general? ( I could do with more about that on the web site, perhaps some diagrams, etc) - Hex connector on RIP is an IN or an OUT? - How many connector(s) on the Guitar? I have seen a stereo jack only... - How go you go analog in a soundcard with the Hex/ 6 piezos ? (With the optional adapter?) - Then, can you go 6x (Hex) analog AND Hex to a Roland or Axon at the same time? - Can you have Magnetic on one Out of the RIP, Piezo on the other ? - Can you have Magnetic on one Out, Piezo on the other and also the Hex ? - The link beteen Guitar and RIP is analog or multiplexed digital or both? - Can you go straight into an amp from the guitar without RIP? * - On Firewire out, do you have separate signals for: Magnetic, Piezos, Hex? - And Mix of Magnetic and Piezo?? Thanks for your help, Pierre-André * Since the Guitar can hold 500 tunings, it means it can do that without the RIP and its PSU connected, so supposedly yes the guitar also outputs "regular" analog. - And since it is a stereo jack, supposedly Magnetic & Piezo?[/quote']
Wondo Posted December 3, 2008 Posted December 3, 2008 Okay, From what Mike has said here and on other threads in this forum, here is how I think the DF is going to work. Mike, please chime in and correct me if I am wrong: The DF has a trs out (stereo out) the two feeds from this balanced signal is one...the magnetic pickups (P-90 and Burstbucker) the other one is the Piezo. The trs send goes into the RIP interface and then has two rs outs(mono out) each unbalanced send can now go into two separate amps one for the acoustic tone from the Piezo and the other from the two magnetic pickups. Or, you can enter this into two tracks on a mixer in any DAW with your soundcard. You can also send this signal via firewire directly into your DAW. The Hex output seems to be the one not fully understood as of yet, but it does seem that with the adaptaor that we are supposed to get with the DF, we will then be able to plug into Axon and Roland guitar-to-MIDI converters. We should be also able to use a regular rs unblanced guitar cable to plug into an amp allowing for the magnetic pickups only...like a regular Les Paul or plug into the RIP and use only one of the two sends on the back of the RIP to plug into an amp to either use just the magnetic pickups or just the piezo pickups. I hope I got this right.
scratch17 Posted December 3, 2008 Posted December 3, 2008 Gibson is unclear as to what kind of "optional add-on" is needed to use the RIP's 'hex' output jack with standard 13 pin Roland GK type devices. However, from the pics of the RIP, the jack itself seems to be a simple standard 13 pin output. If that is the case, any compatible GK device should work right out of the box, when connected by a GK cable. Even if a proprietary connection device is required, it should open up a whole world of GK compatible devices to Dark Fire owners. This jack is the most overlooked output on the Dark Fire. GK compatible devices include the Roland guitar synths and pitch to MIDI converters (GR-09, GR-1, GR-20, GR-30, GR-33, GI-10 and GI-20) , Yamaha's G50 pitch to MIDI converter, and the Axon series including the AX-100 MK1 and 2 and the AX50. All of these devices have pitch to MIDI conversion capabilities. Some have built in synth boards. Some also can send their MIDI output via USB directly to a computer. Then there are Roland's hybrids, the VG series (VG-8, VG-88 and VG-99), which combine guitar, amp, and effects modeling with some synthesizer-like capabilities. Note that these synth-like sounds are built-in, proprietary, and are not triggered by MIDI data. The VG-99 also has the pitch to MIDI conversion capability of the GI-20. Finally, there are a number of GK compatible accessory devices that would be of high interest to any Dark Fire owner. RMC makes a 13 pin device they call a Fanout Box. It is similar to the Gibson Digital Guitar's BOB (Breakout Box). It is far more capable as a recording studio device than BOB, however. The Fanout Box has a single 13 pin GK input, and a huge number of outputs. As with the BOB, there are six 1/4 inch jacks that provide separate analog outputs for each string. Unlike the BOB, these are TRS jacks. The ring is connected to the 13 pin input jack. These provide the six analog outputs. The tip of these jacks is connected to one of the two 13 pin outputs. To explain their use, I'll provide an example. The example here uses my Fanout Box, my audio interface (a MOTU Traveler), and my DAW (Cubase). With the Dark Fire, I would need only it, the RIP, and the Fanout Box to accomplish the following techniques. I never record any guitar track without sending a hex signal from my AXON AX-100 hex pickup to my Fanout Box, then through my MOTU Traveler audio interface into Cubase. That is regardless of whether I am recording a lead line from my conventional magnetic pickups, or I plan to use my VG-8, or AXON AX-100 MK2. There are four reasons for this. The first reason is that I never know if I will want to use the hex pickup's output later to add to or fatten up the original mag pickup's track. Once the hex signal is recorded onto six separate audio channels in Cubase, I can alter the EQ, dynamics, and effects on a per string basis any time I want to. I can also use Guitar Rig 3 and Amplitube 2 to add modeling to any of the six strings. When I alter any of these six feeds, I use six empty tracks in Cubase. This leaves the original six channels of each string's audio unaltered. The second reason is that I may later want to have a score of what I played. How does recording the hex output on your DAW translate into a score of what I played? That's where the Fanout Box and a pitch to MIDI converter comes in. The Fanout's ability to send out a previously recorded hex feed is the key here. I simply send the hex feed out of the DAW, through my audio interface, and into the Fanout. The Fanout has the tip of the six string TRS jacks hard wired to one of the 13 pin outputs. I simply connect that jack to the input on my AXON. The AXON converts the recorded hex audio data to MIDI data, which I then send back to Cubase. I then use Cubase to create a score. The third reason is that I may want to add Roland VG-8 modeling or a VG-8 synth sound to fatten up the lead line. I simply connect my VG-8 to the Fanout Box and send the previously recorded signal to the VG-8. I have lots of options here that I can't do live. Since I can send each string's signal individually, I can use a separate VG-8 patch on each string if I want. In effect, the Fanout Box lets me turn one VG-8 into six of them. It is the perfect hardware interface between my guitar, my DAW, and my VG-8 and AX-100. The fourth reason I always record the hex output into my DAW is that I can later use it to drive the AX-100. So after the recording is done, no matter how much later, I can get MIDI from my guitar to feed a soft synth, sampler or a hardware synth or sampler. The Fanout Box also has some other specialized jacks that would add functionality to the Dark Fire. There are two send and receive jacks with string select switches so that you can do customizable string split outputs. For example, you could set one jack's switches so that it sends the output of the low E and the A string to a bass patch and the top four strings would be set up to send to a guitar patch. There are two jacks labeled SW-1 and SW-2. These are jacks that can be connected to foot switches (such as the Boss FS-5U) which could be used to control many functions such as patch change on synths or VG's. There is also a jack that would control 'synth volume' when connected to a Roland EV-5 (or equivalent). This pedal can be configured to control many parameters on guitar synths and VG's. There are also some Roland accessories that could be used with the RIP 13 pin jack, such as the US-20 foot switch (Lets you connect to GK devices and switch between them or have both on or off), and the GKP-4 which lets you connect up to 4 GK devices. Finally, Roland also made two amps that had GK inputs, the VGA3 and VGA7, which had built in VG modeling and effects. Steven
Wondo Posted December 3, 2008 Posted December 3, 2008 What if I just wanted to get started into this, for me uncharted territory? I want to say plug into a Keyboard Brain as one would do with a Roland Guitar Synth in order to start creating synth sounds with the DF. Where would be a good place to start. Obviously, we would need the converter first, but what would be a nice piece of gear that would do this for a beginner in the guitar synth world.?
scratch17 Posted December 3, 2008 Posted December 3, 2008 If you want to connect to an outboard hardware synth (or, as you put it, a 'keyboard brain'), you need a pitch to MIDI converter. The Axon AX-100 MK2 is the best pitch to MIDI converter I've used. It sells for about $700 USD. It isn't perfect, but there are no perfect alternatives. The Roland converters (GI-20) are a little more glitch prone than the AXON. Personally, I would not use either live, although some have done so. If you do want to use it live, be prepared to edit the synth patches to match your playing style and the triggering action of the AXON. The AXON does work well in studio, where you can correct the glitches after the fact. Instead, I'd suggest that you try out a Roland VG-99. It plays as fast as a regular guitar, without glitches (false or missed notes) for its internal sounds. These sounds include some very useable guitar synth sounds, and an emulation of the Roland GR-300 guitar synth. The VG-99 does have a pitch to MIDI converter built in, so you could also try that out as well. The GR-300 was an analog synth that has been used extensively by Pat Metheny. I've seen him use it live at two shows. It did not use MIDI data to trigger notes. Steven
Wondo Posted December 3, 2008 Posted December 3, 2008 Steven, So, I could get a VG-99 and plug the Dark Fire directly into it? Or, if I went with a GR-30, it looks like I could plug directly into that. What would be the difference between the two? Thanks.
elantric Posted December 3, 2008 Posted December 3, 2008 Yes - using a GK 13pin adapter connected to the RIP box's HEX out. You can then drive a Roland VG-99, GR-20, or Axon. Just a heads up here. My Dark Fire is ordered. I'm Moderator for the Roland VG-99 Forum here: www.vguitarforums.com - where I'm member "sustainiac" I should be able to sort out the RIP's hex OUTPUT rather swiftly. Also based on the pics I saw on Craig Anderton's Blog http://www2.gibson.com/News-Lifestyle/Blogs/Dark-Fire--The-Inside-Story/December-2008/Trial-Run-for-Dark-Fire-s-RIP-Interface.aspx The RIP hex output is unbalanced analog out - using the small "mini-DIN" 8 pin type connector - this is NOT a Roland GK 13 pin DIN connector. From reading this web site all day - I see confusion info on the Dark Fire RIP - one place states that a "soon to be released" optional interface box (due in 2009) will make the proper electrical interface conversion between the RIP's mini-DIN Hex Out and the Roland Gk 13 compliant type connector - so you could connect the Dark Fire to an Axon or a VG-99, but only after obtaining this future interface adapter. http://www2.gibson.com/getfile/13d24204-4f84-487a-b90e-ce6f76e35a34/Anderton_RIP_back.aspx But it may be something simple as building a "mini-8 DIN to 13 pin DIN passive cable. Perhaps this adapter will be included with the Dark Fire package. ?? Question? What would be really superb is if connecting the RIP via Firewire to a Mac running Ableton, is if you actually see individual Audio Recording Inputs for each string - allowing 6 track recording, one track per string using ONLY the RIP box? ** EDIT - Confirmed Yes!!
elantric Posted December 3, 2008 Posted December 3, 2008 This URL seems to have most accurate complete info I have seen: http://tinyurl.com/56n5gw The Robot II comes with a small box called the RIP ( Robot Interface Pack) about the size of a pack of playing cards that acts as a high quality studio preamp and a full interface to a computer using a firewire port. We call it a Robot Interface Pack [or RIP for short]. RIP can be used live, in real time. With a headphone out, you can carry RIP in you guitar case and set up your playing environment anywhere with or without your computer. The RIP's front panel carries a single 1/4-inch stereo input for the Dark Fire, a 1/8-inch headphone out with level control and a pilot light, which changes from dim blue to bright blue when the Dark Fire input is detected. The rear panel carries two balanced 1/4-inch line outs, a FireWire connector to link to your amplifier or sound system and a hex connector that carries the analog outputs of each string, and a composite piezo output. An optional adaptor provides easy connection from this hex output to popular MIDI guitar interfaces such as those made by Roland and Axon, or allows you to divide out the six individual signals to their own balanced one-quarter inch connectors. There's also a 12-volt DC connector for the RIP's power supply, which both powers the RIP itself and recharges the Dark Fire's battery when required. The RIP can act as a connecting point between any guitar and your computer-based recording or sound processing system, its built-in hex decoder circuitry comes to life when the Dark Fire is plugged in. Of course, you can also use the RIP to connect to your favorite digital audio workstation, but you don't even need to be in possession of such a system to begin making the most of the Dark Fire's digital capabilities. One amazing capability that comes with the guitar is software that allows you to use your computer to change user presets and store them. Users can then publish their personal favorite preset designs. MORE DARK FIRE GEAR BEING DESIGNED Gibson Guitar is already developing a range of audio equipment designed specifically to work with the new Dark Fire, some of which is already scheduled for release in early 2009, including a small transmitter module designed to work with Bluetooth wireless technology, allowing you the ability to connect wirelessly to your computer or laptop.
elantric Posted December 3, 2008 Posted December 3, 2008 Re reading the above - the implication is that the Dark Fire's 1/4" TRS electrical interface - between the Guitar and the RIP is far more trick than first glance. Without the RIP box, The 1/4 Output Jack on the Dark Fire guitar accommodates these connection types: 1) Using a Mono 1/4" cable - the Dark Fire will feed normal Guitar amps - where rotating the tip of the PU selector" allows selection of the mix of mag and piezo tones. 2) Using Stereo 1/4" TRS "Y-Cord" - the Dark Fire will feed Mag PUs (via the Tip) to normal Guitar amps and Piezo tones (via the Ring) to full range amps for acoustic tones. Sleeve is ground. But when the Dark Fire Guitar's TRS connection feeds the RIP, then this TRS connection shifts gears into a proprietary multiplexed protocol and allows: * Re-Charging the onboard Battery * Allows the RIP to decode 8 seperate multiplexed Audio Streams: a) Mag PU Out Piezo PU Out (mono mix of all 6 strings) c) Discreet hex analog out of each individual string d) And a Bi directional communication link for the cross platform Dark Fire Preset Editor to save and edit presets into onboard flash memory on the guitar.
Wondo Posted December 3, 2008 Posted December 3, 2008 - where the "MCK" allows selection of the mix of mag and piezo tones. I think this is done through the tip of the toggle switch not the MCK. Evidently, the tip of the toggle switch can be turned clockwise or counter clock wise to dial in the piezo. Am I understanding this right? When you plug into the RIP, all analog is lost and now the signal is digital? I want to be able to use the guitar as a regular old analog Les Paul if I should so desire. It looks like that can be done with an insert or "Y" cable...no? Mike@Gibson implied that you could use the RIP and go into two different amps, but is that signal digital or analog?
elantric Posted December 5, 2008 Posted December 5, 2008 >I want to be able to use the guitar as a regular old analog Les Paul if I should so desire. Sure - One Option is connect the Dark Fire to your Amp using a normal guitar cable.
Ulhuru Posted December 5, 2008 Author Posted December 5, 2008 Hi, Thanks all & Mike for the detailed ... inputs! Elantric, I am 100% with you, TRS jack can be both analog & digital, as it supposedly was too on the original digital guitar. I am also 100% with you when you say that ultimately the 6 separate strings signals shall end up in the Firewire to connect directly to Live / DAWs. That will be great (it WILL happen for sure), but then no simultaneous connection of VG-99, as far as I know (one sound card at a time in a Mac, perhaps even worst in a PC...). And I also loved to read you about a cross platform DF editor, did not know about this one. Wondo, TRS to RIP would be multiplexed digital proprietary link, then decoded by RIP, there you will get analog at line levels at both the stereo and Hex outs. Then if I am right, using the same TRS, with no RIP connected, you will get analog signal direct from the DF in this case, Mag Tip, Piezo Ring, but see also below. Scrath17, thanks for the RMC fanout tip and all the great suggestions you have made for creative routings! And more wondering: One thing I am not yet clearly understanding is if the analog out at the TRS (with no RIP connected) is undergoing an AD/DA conversion in the Guitar itself or not. This is why I am suggesting a little audio diagram (supposedly soon to be found in the UM). To see if Piezo / Magnetic pick-ups signal is routed to the analog "side" of the TRS before conversion or after. It seems to me that there's a lot going on behind that TRS, so I'd say, along with all the clever mic and preset switching and stuff, it might be easier to manage it all digitally then convert back to analog when needed (when a jack is connected to analog equipment (ie amps). But having a pure analog path when using the DF as a regular Les Paul would be "neat" of course, and after all maybe there is. As for recording with GR3 & Live, similarly, but the other way round: the 6x strings + Magnetic + Piezo Sum, sent via a solid multichannel Firewire connection would be nice, as it would avoid a few unnecessary D/A A/Ds. Anyway, I have placed the order, cause I like the idea, for a start, of having automated strange tunings simultaneously to Guitar Rig3 and to VG-99 (before, I could do it but in the VG only, obviously). And I also look forward to connecting (via firewire or hex adapter, whatever) to 3x Guitar Rig 3s in Live, with 2 strings in each... (6x GR3 would be too much for my brain...)
Wondo Posted December 5, 2008 Posted December 5, 2008 I think some kind of confirmed answer about the connectability of the DF would be crucial right about now. Many of us have ordered the guitar and would like to know. Maybe even a simple schematic written on a napkin at this point would be fine with me. I just need to know what the options are. On the Gibson site it says you can use a guitar cord (they spelled it chord) and use it like any other guitar into an amp, but how does all of the other connections work??? Mike??? Someone???
Ulhuru Posted December 5, 2008 Author Posted December 5, 2008 Hi Wondo, As stated above, "other" connections would work multiplexed digitally in the TRS "chord", there's room for many channels this way and RIP can convert all these back to analog outputs. The convenience of having a single jack is attractive to me, as currently I am doing almost the same things, minus the robot tuning, but with "lots" of cables running from the guitar to the computer. And yes, a little schematic, along with specs (bit depth, sample rate, latency...) will be welcome at some point in time. Anyhow, I guess, now that we have placed the order, the latest we will find out for sure is when we unbox the thing :-)
elantric Posted December 5, 2008 Posted December 5, 2008 I see a family resemblance between the RIP and other Echo Audio boxes: Reviewing the specs at the link below may shed light on the audio performance of the Gibson RIP interface. http://www.echoaudio.com/Products/FireWire/AudioFire8/index.php But I'm intrigued about the "break out" capabilities of the Dark Fire's TRS Jack's multiplexed data streams. Re-Reading Craig Anderton's blog - It would appear there is an internal active EQ inside the Dark Fire - specifically for supporting the 4 band parametric EQ. and Encoding the multiplexed audio stream traveling to the RIP box. Apparently there will be a Dark Fire GUI Edit Application, which allows you tweak the 4 band parametric EQ, edit the PU combinations ( via 6 internal relays) and perhaps select various EQ curves for the piezo PU, and store these in the User Chameleon Tone positions, and hopefully re route via a switching matrix what signals feed the two TRS balanced line Outputs on the RIP. (dry / wet Mag PUs, dry / wet Piezo PU, etc.) If we are lucky the Dark Fire Owners Manual will be released prior to Dec. 15th but it wont change my decision. I'm salivating for this thing badly! but as you say: "Anyhow, I guess, now that we have placed the order, the latest we will find out for sure is when we unbox the thing :-) "
elantric Posted December 8, 2008 Posted December 8, 2008 I found The most complete Dark Fire Press release yet, has the most info regarding the RIP Box functions: Gibson Dark Fire - its a Saudi Arabian Blog. The release of the original Gibson Robot Guitar in August 2007 caused a sensation the likes of which the guitar world has never seen, with stocks of these instruments selling out in most music stores within 24 hours. This self-tuning version of the hallowed Les Paul — capable of retuning itself in one second at the push of a button, and shifting to any conceivable alternative tuning with equal ease and speed — broke a long-standing natural law of the instrument, and was embraced the world over by pros and devoted enthusiasts alike. Now, with the introduction of the new Dark Fire, Gibson takes the format exponentially further in a guitar with both analog and digital capabilities that would have been virtually inconceivable just a few years ago. In a first-production run of numbered and strictly limited Dark Fire guitars, Gibson now combines considerably upgraded powerhead tuners, tuning brain, and battery functions with unprecedented analog and digital sonic abilities. A natural marriage, the melding of these functions gives the new Dark Fire stunning new levels of tonal and functional freedom, enabling you to release your full creative abilities — put simply: you play, the Dark Fire does all the grunt work. Analog or digital, the Gibson Dark Fire gives you an infinite number of tonal possibilities to let you change the tone of the Dark Fire to match your environment – a concept otherwise known as Chameleon Tone Technology. Never before has one guitar been able to produce every imaginable guitar sound. To top it all off, each new Dark Fire also comes with Gibson’s new Robot Interface Pack (RIP for short), a small box about the size of a pack of playing cards that functions as a studio-quality preamp, firewire computer interface, digital hex-pickup breakout box and so much more. The Dark Fire can be played straight into a standard amplifier with a standard 1/4? mono cord and still provide a broad range of analog electromagnetic and piezo pickup tones and switching combinations, or routed through the RIP to a computer-based recording system, PA or multi-amp system for unprecedented control over your soundscapes. Or just play it through the RIP alone, using the dedicated stereo headphone output and level control, to set up your sounds in privacy before the gig or session begins, or simple to practice. Perhaps the most important consideration of all for any serious guitarist, however, is the fact that the new Dark Fire is built on the most solid, toneful, and playable bones in the industry. Based on Gibson’s 2008 Les Paul Standard model, it has a solid mahogany body and carved maple top, solid mahogany neck with super-fast asymmetrical neck profile, and two of Gibson’s finest pickups: the new P-90h in the neck position and a Burstbucker III in the bridge position. Also, without even tapping the full capabilities of the hex-pickup-based digital system, the new Dark Fire II offers acoustic tones via its improved, sleeker looking Tune-o-matic bridge with six individual piezo-pickup saddles. Added together, these industry-leading features are crafted into a whole far greater than the sum of their parts, and rendered to optimum playability with Gibson’s Perfect Setup™ from the world renowned computer-controlled PLEK system, acknowledged as the most precise guitar set-up technology in the industry. To further set this exclusive run apart, Gibson is producing the Dark Fire in a new Dark Fire finish, with a headstock inlaid with Gibson’s traditional flower pot inlay, and a striking white formfit hardshell case. There’s a mammoth amount of playing power on tap here, so let’s break down the Dark Fire’s functionality a little bit to see what’s hiding in some of the details. Robot Tuning Technology As with the original Robot Guitars, the Dark Fire’s tuning capabilities are tapped at the Master Control Knob (MCK), although this control now also oversees myriad tonal functions too, which we’ll delve into below. This powerful control has been totally redesigned with improved user-intuitive ergonomics and clear, well-defined full-color matrix display, and it accesses an upgraded Robot brain (with onboard software) that can now contain a full 500 different tuning presets (??), so virtually any conceivable open or alternate tuning is available at the touch of a button, in addition to the popular preset tunings loaded in at the factory. Simply activate the MCK, strum the strings lightly, and in one second the Dark Fire’s digital brain and Powerhead tuners work together to put you perfectly in tune. Or to achieve any open or alternate tuning, rotate the MCK to the desired preset, strum, and you’re ready to play in Open E, Dropped D, DADGAD, Open G, Hendrix Tuning (half-step down) or any of your own custom tunings. At the other end of the instrument, the Powerhead tuners that do all the muscle work are now both lighter and stronger than those of the first-generation Robot. They achieve your desired tuning faster, and can now also be used as standard manual tuners without first needing to be engaged and disengaged between modes. In addition, all six tuners now zip into action simultaneously when the MCK is engaged with your desired setting, so your re-tune now occurs several times faster than before — so fast, in fact, that you can retune or change tunings mid-song, with no interruption detectable from the audience’s perspective. To keep it all running longer, the battery that powers this brain now holds a longer charge, providing the Dark Fire with around 500 retuning cycles before recharging is required. Standard (Electromagnetic) Tones Used “merely” as a standard (analog) guitar with high-quality electromagnetic pickups plus acoustic-like tones from its piezo-pickup bridge saddles, the Dark Fire already packs a staggering wealth of tonal capabilities. The P-90h and Burstbucker III are wired to allow each individual coil to be used in a switching matrix that provides over 20 separate combinations, all easily accessed by the player from the guitar’s own deceptively powerful onboard control section. As part of the package, Gibson has honed nine super sweet tones that have been fine-tuned in-house to allow the Dark Fire to produce virtually every desirable guitar tone — all available with a single twist of the MCK. Furthermore, the Tone control and the CPA are designed to yield significant yet intuitive tonal changes from just slight rotations of the knob, and all of this is achieved via studio quality circuitry with much lower noise and signal loss than ever before achieved on such a guitar, so the full authentic Les Paul tone — along with its many new pickup combinations — comes through unhindered. Acoustic Tones As the gateway to the Dark Fire’s digital abilities, the six individual piezo pickups in the redesigned Tune-o-matic bridge offer far more dramatic electro-acoustic capabilities than standard piezo-loaded bridges on the market. Not only are these pickups wired through an onboard active studio-quality preamp that ramps them up to a stronger, more natural acoustic sound, they can also be routed to your recording device or amplification system in three different ways: 1: With the guitar plugged in with a standard cord with 1/4? phone jacks, the acoustic tone from all six piezo pickups can be blended with the electromagnetic pickup sound via a revolutionary new potentiometer that is built into the pickup toggle selector switch. You can roll smoothly from 100% magnetic pickup tone (with 0% piezo added) to 100% piezo pickup tone (with 0% magnetic), or any blend in between. 2: Plug a stereo cord with tip-ring-sleeve (TRS) connector into the Dark Fire to split the piezo pickups’ signal to one channel or one amp, and the traditional electric guitar signal to another. Send your piezo-based acoustic tone to the PA or an acoustic amp, your full Les Paul tone to your favorite tube amp, or route them to suite your taste. 3: Or, the six individual piezo signals can be transmitted over the stereo guitar cord using analog multiplexing (with no digital processing or delay whatsoever), and decoded to six balanced outputs via an optional breakout box, from which each individual string can be routed to a separate channel for individual EQ and effects treatments. So turn up with your favorite old standby amp and standard guitar cord, and you’ve still got a wealth of both acoustic and electric tones on tap, or route the piezo capabilities out to their own channel, or six individual channels, and the sky is the limit. Digital Tones Hold onto your hats… This is where the Dark Fire really launches into the stratosphere. While the heart of the Dark Fire’s capabilities lie entirely within the guitar itself, the small Robot Interface Pack (RIP) that’s included with each one provides the means of routing all this staggering sonic versatility to your desired live performance or recording system. The RIP’s front panel carries a single 1/4? stereo input for the Dark Fire, an 1/8? headphone out with level control, and a pilot light (changes from yellow to cobalt-blue when the Dark Fire input is detected). The rear panel carries two balanced 1/4? line outs, a FireWire connector to link to your PC or laptop, and a hex connector that carries the outputs of each string and a composite piezo output. An optional adaptor provides easy connection from this hex output to popular MIDI guitar interfaces such as those made by Roland and Axon, or allows you to divide out the six individual signals to their own balanced 1/4? connectors. Finally, there’s the 12-volt DC connector for the RIP’s power supply, which both powers the RIP itself, and recharges the Dark Fire’s battery when required. While the RIP can act as a connecting point between any guitar and your computer-based recording or sound processing system, its built-in hex decoder circuitry comes to life when the Dark Fire is injected. Of course, you can use the RIP to connect to your favorite DAW (digital audio workstation), but you don’t even need to be in possession of such a system to begin making the most of the Dark Fire’s digital capabilities. In addition to the RIP itself, each guitar comes with easy to install software with pro-quality low-latency driver to process the Dark Fire through a well-stocked library of effects, which is packaged with a Gibson-modified version of the popular Guitar Rig III processing software. Through the RIP’s connection capabilities you can route these effects to your live outputs, your recorded outputs, or both. Tap into Guitar Rig III’s versatile selection of effects box, amplifier, and speaker emulations, and instantly achieve the most desired guitar tones in the history of popular music. Naturally, Dark Fire owners will also be able to connect to the internet through their RIPs to download firmware updates along with upgraded functions and software features as they become available from Gibson’s R&D department. Fully Upgradable, Always Cutting Edge The Dark Fire that you purchase today is designed to remain current with any upcoming developments from Gibson; the electronics can be removed from the guitar quickly and easily, and new electronics installed should the time come to upgrade to a future generation of Robot technology, or to change your pickups out of personal preference. The well-crafted, Les Paul-based core of the instrument retains its integrity whatever electronics you use with it, and therefore will retain its value whatever is done to alter its technological functions. Also, Gibson is already developing a range of audio equipment designed specifically to work with your new Dark Fire, some of which is already scheduled for release in early 2009. One of these is a small transmitter module designed to work with Bluetooth wireless technology, which will allow you to connect wirelessly to your computer or laptop. And these incredible advances aren’t limited to owners of the Dark Fire. Gibson players who bought the first generation Robot will soon be offered an opportunity to convert the self-tuning technology on their guitars to the self-tuning specs of the new Dark Fire. The new Gibson Dark Fire – the most advanced guitar system ever developed. Tap its power, and tune in to your creative freedom. Available Dec. 15, 2008.
elantric Posted December 8, 2008 Posted December 8, 2008 So to answer the OP's post at the top of this thread: - Yes, Hex connector on RIP is an OUTPUT - Yes, There is only one 1/4" TRS Locking connector on the Guitar. Q: How do you go analog in a soundcard with the Hex/ 6 piezos ? A: The RIP supports recording/ processing 6 independent string channels using the bundled Applications via Firewire into a PC or Mac . No Optional hardware needed. Q: Then, can you go 6x (Hex) analog ( into Mac/ PC via Firewire) AND feed Hex to a Roland or Axon at the same time? A: Yes using an optional 8pin miniDIN to 13pin DIN Adapter (TBD) Q: Can you have Magnetic on one Out of the RIP, Piezo on the other ? A: Yes Q: Can you have Magnetic on one Out, Piezo on the other and also the Hex ? A: Yes, and Hex emerges from 8pin miniDIN "HEX" jack on rear of RIP. Q: The link beteen Guitar and RIP is analog or multiplexed Analog or both? A: * With a MONO TS guitar cable , you get Mag PU or mono EQ'd Piezo PU use Blend control pot on PU selector switch to mix * With a Stereo TRS cable. and a Y- cord, you can feed Mag PUs to a guitar amp (Tip ) , Mono EQ'd Piezo PU to a full range Amp (Ring) * With a Stereo TRS cable. and the RIP box, enables the Dark Fire Analog Multiplexed signal stream - you can feed Mag PUs to a guitar amp (Out 1 ) , Mono EQ'd Piezo PU to a full range Amp (Out 2) , and discrete strings (via mini DIN) can drive optional GK 13 Roland adapter, or optional Balanced Audio Hex String Output box. All without a computer. Q: Can you go straight into an amp from the guitar without RIP? A: Yes Q: On Firewire out, do you have separate signals for: Magnetic, Piezos, Hex? A: Yes - 8 channels appear as Inputs to PC/ Mac Q: Does the RIP function as a Firewire audio interface for my other guitars? A: Yes , using a MONO Guitar cable from your other Guitars.
Wondo Posted December 8, 2008 Posted December 8, 2008 Wow! Now, that's some guitar! Glad I ordered one. Some learning curve involved with the digital aspect for me but, that is half the fun!! Thanks elantric.
Ulhuru Posted December 8, 2008 Author Posted December 8, 2008 Hi, Thanks Elantric for the absolute great job compiling DF info above. ... The one bit I am finding myself a tad baffled with is the ANALOG multiplexing you mention: even though there might perhaps be ways of achieving this (à la Dolby Surround) it is my understanding that you would, using such tricks, loose a lot more sound that you would using a "good old" DIGITAL multiplexing. So I am only guessing here, but my guess is that the Hex signal must go thru AD then DA for DF to RIP liaison. But nothing wrong with that with me, knowing that you still do have the Firewire to keep signal digital when going to Guitar Rig / Live / DAW. Unless of course there is a multiconnector somewhere on the guitar that can route the 6 separate signals + blend, the way Godin / Brian Moore do. Which would allow skipping the AD/DA when using a VG-xx. An unless of course I totally failed to grasp properly one of the concepts detailed above...
elantric Posted December 8, 2008 Posted December 8, 2008 Thanks for the "thank you" - your welcome. I'm only another future Dark Fire owner - but I admit I have scoured the net each day for all / updated details regarding this Guitar . But hey anytime I can have a dialog with Mr. Craig Anderton is gold in my book (see other posts over the weekend.) - Bizzare that the most detailed press release about Dark Fire came from Saudi Arabia.. (I rack it as another example of the press agencies "dumbing down" detailed tech content to a 12 grade level when addressing Americans, and Guitar players. Seems US press releases were more concerned that this guitar could finally achieve and nail "Ace Frehley Tone" . http://www.yankodesign.com/2008/12/08/gibsons-world-takeover-scheme-with-dark-fire-robot-guitars/ Could be a coincidence, but I think I noticed the "viral marketing campaign" at work - seems to be centered on a guy called "DerekTrainwreck" who posted to most every Music forum over the weekend: http://tinyurl.com/55nx8e "Dark Fire!!! Have any of you heard about Gibson's Dark Fire guitar?" http://www.guitargearheads.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=2162&forum=1&post_id=15417 http://www.soundonsound.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=686139&Main=685474 I mean even on Radiohead and Blink182 message boards he posted the same question. http://www.radiohead.com/msgboard/dim.html?ID=284274296 http://community.livejournal.com/blink182news/9457.html Ulhuru - actual protocol details regarding the "Analog Multiplexed Hex TRS signal" are still sketchy. seems odd to me - is this yet another flavor of "MaGIC - or ? http://www.gibson.com/en-us/Divisions/Audio/MaGIC/THIS%20IS%20MaGIC/ Is this a way to sell the RIP signal path to guitarists who are anal about having "true bypass" and "vintage tone" . or perhaps its AC3 - but lets not advertise it - to keep Dolby lawyers at bay. sorry for being a such a cynic today. ;)
scratch17 Posted December 10, 2008 Posted December 10, 2008 Ulhuru said: ultimately the 6 separate strings signals shall end up in the Firewire to connect directly to Live / DAWs. That will be great (it WILL happen for sure), but then no simultaneous connection of VG-99, as far as I know (one sound card at a time in a Mac, perhaps even worst in a PC...) In order to use the RIP to send the hex output to individual channels of a DAW, you must use its ASIO driver, which is supplied with Dark Fire. If you also want to simultaneously record other instruments (or additional feeds from guitar effects processors, microphones for your guitar amp, etc.), you run into a problem. You need a separate ASIO driver for each audio interface. In some cases, a manufacturer can build the driver so that more than one interface can be used, as long as they are from that manufacturer. So, for instance, it is possible to use two MOTU or TC Electronic interfaces at the same time. However, if you use one of these companies interfaces, you won't be able to use the Dak Fire's Firewire output at the same time. Using multiple ASIO drivers (for more than one audio interface) simultaneously in a DAW is an issue that is caused by operating system deficiencies. The problem is that Windows (XP and Vista), has no built-in aggregate driver. There is no easy solution. ASIOforAll is a program (I believe it is either shareware or freeware), that attempts to create an aggregate driver on Windows XP. Some people have had success with it. Others have found it unworkable. Mac OS X 10.5 has a built-in aggregate driver. It acts as a kind of input/output accumulator. Theoretically, it can accept a driver from any device and aggregate it with that of any other driver, regardless of manufacturer. Your DAW sees one big audio interface with all of the combined inputs and outputs in its audio connections section. The catch is that the more drivers you add to the aggregate driver, the more latency you add. If your DAW has latency compensation, this isn't a huge issue in a recording session. In a live session, it would be a killer. So, what can you do if you don't have a Mac? I'll give you a real world example of how I get around this restriction, to some extent, with my two audio interfaces, and my current guitar recording setup. At this point in time, I have a MOTU Traveler and an Event EZ Bus. I use Cubase SX3 on a Windows XP Pro SP3 PC. First I must list my guitar recording rig so you will see why I have need of so many DAW inputs. I have three guitar amps. Two are used for electric (magnetic pickups) and one is used for acoustic (piezo) pickups. 1. Mesa Rector Recording Preamp which drives a Mesa 20/20 power amp. Each channel powers a Mesa 1 x 10 cab. I directly mic each side, so I need two mic inputs for this amp. The preamp also has recording outputs, so I need two line level inputs as well. 2. Polytone 104. This is a mono solid state amp (made famous by George Benson). I need a single mic input on the DAW for this amp. 3. Marshall AS-80R. I use this for my piezo pickup on my Hamer Duotone. I use a direct mic on it, so it adds an input to the DAW. I also like to set up my amps and cabs in a stereo spread in the room. The Mesa cabs are placed on the sides, with the Polytone and Marshall towards the center. I place a pair of mics in a classic X/Y pattern and record a stereo image of the amps I also like to send a direct output from my magnetic and piezo pickups directly into the DAW, so I can re-amp the guitar track any time in the future. That means I need another two line level DAW inputs. And I also always use my RMC Breakout Box, which requires six line level outputs. As you can see, without my VG-8 or any hardware guitar effects processors, I need 14 inputs on my DAW. To get that many inputs, I must connect the EZ Bus via ADAT optical to the Traveler, which now shows up as a sixteen in, sixteen out interface in Cubase. The only requirement is that I must use the Traveler as the master and set up the EZ Bus as a slave. So, what will I do when I get a Dark Fire? Initially, I'll connect the RIP to my Fanout Box via the DIN connector, and use my current audio interfaces. In a studio setting, I won't use the Firewire output from the RIP at all. Eventually, I'll get a Mac and try the aggregate driver. In a live setting, I will test the latency of the Traveler versus the RIP. There will probably be little, if any difference. By the way, I also recommend the RMC box to anyone planning on using Dark Fire with a Roland or Axon device in a live rig. As I stated in my earlier post, the Fanout Box has inputs for the SW1 and SW2 switches (which are not on the Dark Fire) and the 'synth volume' controller (which is the pickup switch knob on the Dark Fire). These controls are very useful in a live setting with any of the GK devices. You could even use these switch inputs under MIDI control if your MIDI controller or guitar effects device had relay switch outputs. The Roland FC-300 (which is the perfect mate for the VG-99) has such capability. So does my TC Electronic G-Major. Or a dedicated device such as a Voodoo Lab GXC Switcher would do the trick. Also, if I am reading the press releases correctly, the pickup switch knob on the Dark Fire controls piezo volume. I am guessing that when you turn the volume down on this knob, both the mono piezo output and the hex piezo output volume will drop. That means you have one control which affects two different feeds. But what if you are sending the hex feed to a VG-99 or Axon pitch to MIDI controller? You might want to turn the mono piezo output down, or even completely off, but leave the hex output all the way up to drive the GK device. If you use the pickup switch knob, you turn both feeds off. Or, what if you want to lower or turn off the volume on the VG-99, and keep the volume on the mono piezo up? The solution will require an RMC Breakout Box, a Roland EV-5 and a volume foot controller. The foot volume controller would go between the line out on the RIP that carries the mono piezo signal and its amp. The Roland EV-5 connects to the Fanout Box, and it controls the level of any GK device connected to it. You simply leave the pickup switch knob wide open and use the foot pedals to control volume levels for the synth and piezo mono feeds. Steven
elantric Posted December 10, 2008 Posted December 10, 2008 scratch17 I do a similar method - but with MOTU 828 MK3 on a MAC. Creating an Aggregate Core Audio device from multiple hardware audio interfaces is not perfect - but possible on Mac OSX. Good article here: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul05/articles/tiger.htm?print=yes Might want to consider adding a MAC mini - dedicated to Dark Fire / RIP. $500 and a better value than a Fan out box at $395 Also the bummer is Richard McClish has been out of stock of RMC Fan Out box's for sometime now. http://www.rmcpickup.com/FANOUT.html I'm hoping the latency of the Dark Fire RIP / GR3 / Macbook Pro is better than what I can currently get with my MOTU 828MK3 feeding the GR3 demo. frankly - after trying everything, the lowest latency virtual guitar rig I own is Line 6 Toneport DI Gold. I tried the demo of NI Guitar Rig in 2006 with my 828MK2 , but never could get lower than 20 ms latency -which felt very bad to me. by contrast Line 6 Toneport DI Gold feels like real deal. But I trust Craig Anderton, I'm hoping I overlooked a buffer / driver setting somewhere. At past two NAMM shows, when I tried to demo the Guitar rig headphone "hands on demo" - it was broken - but I'm hoping the Dark Fire system running on an Intel Core 2 Duo Macbook Pro with 4 GB ram has these problems solved. .
elantric Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 Interesting Update The Dark Fire indeed sends an Analog signal down the TRS "Ring" connection. Its 8 channels of multiplexed analog signals: 1) Mag PUs 2) Mono Piezo 3) Low E 4) A 5) D 6) G 7) B 8) High E It gets sorted in the RIP and feeds four AK5386 stereo A/Ds - which then feed a TI iceLynx-Micro IEEE1394-200CES controller which feeds the 1394A port to the PC/Mac Rather clever! Not a speck of MAGIC http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplexer A multiplexer (inside Dark Fire Guitar) is a device that combines several analog signals into one output signal, which carries several audio channels, by means of a Time Division Multiplexer (TDM) technique. A demultiplexer (inside RIP) takes the TDM input signal (on the the TRS "Ring") that carries many channels and separates those over multiple output signals. Imagine an 8 channel version of this diagram below Left half is similar to the encoder inside Dark Fire - Right half is similar to the decoder inside RIP - feeding four stereo A/D's (8 Channels of Audio) and the Hex Out (actually only 7 outputs)
Ulhuru Posted February 4, 2009 Author Posted February 4, 2009 Hi, Just a question, right in the vicinity of the AK5386 / Mini DIN can you see any sort of DA chip?
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