I sometimes wonder why players go through all the expense

[catnine]

I have yet to find any pickup other than some cheap one that has some low output that I wasn't able to get the sound I wanted out of it.

 

I have never been one who likes humbuckers much. I had one desent LP copy that had them other than that all have been single coils of some kind.

 

I would even go as far to say much of this is hype. It's there just to sell people something .

 

I look at the bands of the 60's or 50's and there were not all these choices around you got a specific guitar because you liked the feel of it, the look of it or the sound it had of perhaps your favorite player used that specific guitar. Yet other than that back then you got either some sort of standard humbucker or single coil and that was about it. Now days many major builders from the past offer the same guitar for much more money and offer the same Pu or someone copies it.

 

It's the same with amps , there are still the old mainstays with the same circuits as when they started out and still seem to be the most popular amps to this day.

 

I have three strats that I built and one has used very old Ibanez strat style pu's I got for free in it and I can't tell the difference between them and the Fender Texas Specials or Semour Duncan SSL-1's .

 

It's the same with amps and all the countless affects pedals out there . I do feel you can get almost every sound out of a simple pu and amp and a few pedals even if one needs pedals at all.

 

Blind tested I doubt anyone could tell you want amp or guitar you were using. I do also feel most of the sound comes from the fingers and what you do with them or the bands sound .

 

All that differs in a tube amp is the gain and output tubes and for the most part the speaker that is the end result . So you get a Vox or Fender or Gibson amp and go for that sound you like. Many are so close other than the controls that a set of the same output tubes and can sound the same if they are EL-84's like many use or 6V6's or 6L6's the end result is there to be dialed in and sound so close no one would know the difference.

 

I have had fender amps with 2 EL-84's and a crate with the same and a Vox and I could make one sound just like the other with just the pots and the guitars controls. So you have the same preamp and output tubes and perhaps a difference in the controls like two channels and some sort of gain and differences in how the tone stack is setup , it's just different ways of doing the same thing.

 

Certainly a great acoustic can sound a lot better than a cheap one to a point mostly they are easier to play and have a sound that stands out yet if the player is not all that great who could tell the difference.

I realize many here will disagree with me yet I still say it's all a lot of hype just to sell products. Most times when someone changed a PU is when and if it ever went bad and they usually don't so what better way to keep a business going than offer and endless offer of pu's. How may people have done this and found no difference at all?

[Ryan H]

I think this is a very narrow-minded way of thinking. I implore you to take a Squier Affinity Strat and a Pocket Marshall and make them sound like a Les Paul Standard through a JCM800. Ain't gonna happen. By your logic it should be a piece of cake. But it isn't. Guitars, amps and pedals aren't as simple as you make them out to be. There's more to them than the sum of the parts.

 

Please show me how you make a BC Rich Warlock with Duncan Invaders through a 5150's lead channel with a Boss Metal Zone sound like a stock 50's Strat through a Twin Reverb.

 

-Ryan

[dem00n]

Hmmm, no.

 

You won't understand in till you have it, the same goes with cars.

[milod]

I'm sure that Stein's experience will tell if he chooses to respond.

 

Personally I look at it as different variations I take when I'm shooting a camera, either film or digital. Probably 80 percent of the different settings I've used are not going to make a bean soup's difference to the viewer and probably 80 percent of what general audiences hear of a guitar doesn't make them any difference either.

 

So... it's a matter of "us" mostly. I tend to agree that we've gotta lotta folks chasing this or that variation in tone that doesn't make a hill of those beans difference to most listeners.

 

But... as the old saying goes, you pays your money and takes your choice.

 

m

[stein]

I am a little surprised that you ask such a question. I mean, after reading your other post (in particular, the "mooded champ" one), you have a LOT of knowledge on how amps work and how to make them better.

 

I am guessing, maybe one part of it is, you know how to turn a knob and flip a switch? Not to sound cynical, I think we all have been guilty of not utilizing these basic features. Most amps are pretty versital in the extremes they can do, so in a lot of ways, rather than resorts to "mods", changes, additions, etc., a turn of the tone knob or going to a different pup position gets more done.

[Sgt.]

I have yet to find any pickup other than some cheap one that has some low output that I wasn't able to get the sound I wanted out of it.

 

I have never been one who likes humbuckers much. I had one desent LP copy that had them other than that all have been single coils of some kind.

 

I would even go as far to say much of this is hype. It's there just to sell people something .

 

I look at the bands of the 60's or 50's and there were not all these choices around you got a specific guitar because you liked the feel of it, the look of it or the sound it had of perhaps your favorite player used that specific guitar. Yet other than that back then you got either some sort of standard humbucker or single coil and that was about it. Now days many major builders from the past offer the same guitar for much more money and offer the same Pu or someone copies it.

 

It's the same with amps , there are still the old mainstays with the same circuits as when they started out and still seem to be the most popular amps to this day.

 

I have three strats that I built and one has used very old Ibanez strat style pu's I got for free in it and I can't tell the difference between them and the Fender Texas Specials or Semour Duncan SSL-1's .

 

It's the same with amps and all the countless affects pedals out there . I do feel you can get almost every sound out of a simple pu and amp and a few pedals even if one needs pedals at all.

 

Blind tested I doubt anyone could tell you want amp or guitar you were using. I do also feel most of the sound comes from the fingers and what you do with them or the bands sound .

 

All that differs in a tube amp is the gain and output tubes and for the most part the speaker that is the end result . So you get a Vox or Fender or Gibson amp and go for that sound you like. Many are so close other than the controls that a set of the same output tubes and can sound the same if they are EL-84's like many use or 6V6's or 6L6's the end result is there to be dialed in and sound so close no one would know the difference.

 

I have had fender amps with 2 EL-84's and a crate with the same and a Vox and I could make one sound just like the other with just the pots and the guitars controls. So you have the same preamp and output tubes and perhaps a difference in the controls like two channels and some sort of gain and differences in how the tone stack is setup , it's just different ways of doing the same thing.

 

Certainly a great acoustic can sound a lot better than a cheap one to a point mostly they are easier to play and have a sound that stands out yet if the player is not all that great who could tell the difference.

I realize many here will disagree with me yet I still say it's all a lot of hype just to sell products. Most times when someone changed a PU is when and if it ever went bad and they usually don't so what better way to keep a business going than offer and endless offer of pu's. How may people have done this and found no difference at all?

 

Why did tubes come back? Solid state couldn't do it like that! If you haven't shelled out for real tube sound in an amp you should! Why do people want alnico magnets in their speakers and pickups? Alnico magnets are supposed to sound warmer at lower volumes, although the newer ceramic mags can take the punishment of high volume. There's a use for each. I don't know much about the neodynium mags other than that they're supposed to be light. There should be an aftermarket for upgrades and parts. In fact I'd like to see local dealers stock some speaker choices. I shipped a Weber Classic Alnico 30w from Indiana to Ontario because I wished to get some learning time on an alnico speaker. Not many players in my neck of the woods have Weber speakers, they sort of have an exotic appeal and when the Canadian dollar is high against the US dollar it's a good time for Canadians to buy into American goods. Does that make me a tone snob, probably. I search the web for aftermarket upgrades such as alnico speakers, high quality tubes (I shipped a pair of Genelex Gold Lion 6V6's), and electronics (considering pio caps for my lp). Is it worth the cost and effort? Well lets put it this way. Way back when alnico was the only magnets you could get in your speakers and pickups, that was the standard. Then the cobalt element became expensive as it was used on bombs in the war. The cost ratio today is something like 5:1, 50 dollars for an alnico speaker, to a 10 dollar ceramic (copper ferrite). The alnico is not superior, although it has some nice qualities and the ceramic magnet speakers and pickups of today are much less costly to produce than the old style alnico (aluminum/nickel/cobalt). Most of the players in my city stick to stock parts on their guitars and amps and it's somewhat of a shame because there are some really good hot rod mods out there! Changing your tone on the output end of your sound can be as simple as a speaker and tube change in your amp. I don't recommend tackling electrical stuff such as wiring in your guitar or modding your amp unless you have electrical experience. Leave it to a qualified electrician because a poorly grounded DIY job could be very dangerous!

[milod]

I use a Nikon daily because I probably shoot an average of some 30-50,000 frames a year.

 

But I figure I can get a publication quality photo if necessary with a grocery store film camera or my cell phone's "send grandma a pix of the kids" camera.

 

I think it's about the same with whatever I use other than the actual guitar (playability factors) in amplification.

 

The art in photography is the image; in music it's the overall feel of the piece. Yes, the artist might prefer more of this or that, but none of us ever has exactly what we want, when we want it, for either a shoot, painting a landscape or ... playing guitar.

 

I guess we can stress over the exact settings for a given magazine cover shot or pigment for a painting or a fuzz box and amp for guitar picking if we hope to create or reproduce some exact image in our eyes or ears. To me, the composition is most important; getting it into functional professional presentation is barely behind it. The exact shades of color are among the least of my concerns.

 

Yeah, I'm dumb enough to have an ongoing case of GAS - but OTOH, it's almost inevitably for the feel and playability factors for what I'm doing. I'll admit that in my younger days "looks" and "brand/type" expectations of other band members had far too much influence on my decisions. Fractions of tone? Naaah.

 

m

[Riffster]

I think a lot of players look for an inspiring sound rather than simply getting by.

[milod]

It's not a matter of "just getting by."

 

It's a matter of emphasis on the composition of one's playing opposed to chasing bits of shading that barely register on audience ears.

 

One sees the composition of a painting or photograph and is affected by it. One hears the composition of a musical performance as a whole. Differences in shading... The Last Supper is horridly damaged, and yet the composition is of such classic impact that it makes almost no difference.

 

The variations of tone "we guitarists" might hear are important to us, yes - but to the audience? I think not. A good performance as a whole is what's important; individual ears, individual recording and playback all make something of a greater difference but... Without that good performance as a whole, who really cares? A single guitar player? Yes, it's of importance to the picker, but...

 

Does an audience really hear the difference in a concert hall of a Strad or a "lesser" instrument? Research shows differently. It also shows one hears different sounds in different venues and in different areas of a venue. Again, what a musician feels important and what an audience "appreciates" tend quite often to be rather different.

 

How many of us listen to a poor performance of a band as a whole or a guitarist in particular and say, "gee, that's so poorly done (or even just "banal") I don't care to listen again, stay and have another drink or buy a CD - but I love the guitar tone?"

 

m

[bonzoboy]

What gets me is that a lot of people have a knee jerk reaction that the pickups,pots,wiring etc. of some guitars should be pitched out right after purchase.When I bought my Epi G 400 Custom people were advising me to 86 the pups and even the electronic guts.When I put my G-400 through a good amp-or even a not-so-good one-it just sings.This gem can go from all-out hard rock raunch to really smooth and mellow tones that would put you in mind of an old Gibson or Guild jazz box guitar.

The same remarks came when I got my MIM Tele,my MIC Epi Casino and MIM Strat but I defy anyone to pick apart the sounds I get from any of these guitars as they all put out amazing sounds.The Tele sounds every bit as good as an MIA as does the Strat,as a matter of fact I flipped the Strat-it's a lefty-and use it to do Hendrix covers. When I play The Star Spangled Banner through one of my Marshalls I can get the feedback to come out in key at the same points in the song that Jimi did with his MIA Strat.The pickups of some of these guitars might not have quite the magnetic pull as their MIA counterparts but that just takes upping the volume and at times adjusting the EQ to compensate,so that is hardly reason to right off a guitar.

 

I just can't understand for the life of me why people buy a guitar that they find just wrong for them and then put an ungodly amount of money into getting it up to their standards.When I'm in the market for a guitar and test driving some,if there is anything that I don't like about a particular guitar I just move along to the next one.I keep looking until I find the one that feels that a luthier made it especially for me.I am quite capable of doing any adjustments,alterations,pickup/electronics swaps etc. and have done such work for many others but I refuse to spend money on a new guitar only to throw more money at it when I get it home.

[milod]

Bonzo and I may seek different types of musical expression in terms of composition but... I couldn't agree more with his contentions above...

 

m

[RaysEpiphone]

from the op's view, he has gotten so used to the sound of his strats that nothing else will do

[Sgt.]

I use a Nikon daily because I probably shoot an average of some 30-50,000 frames a year.

 

But I figure I can get a publication quality photo if necessary with a grocery store film camera or my cell phone's "send grandma a pix of the kids" camera.

 

I think it's about the same with whatever I use other than the actual guitar (playability factors) in amplification.

 

The art in photography is the image; in music it's the overall feel of the piece. Yes, the artist might prefer more of this or that, but none of us ever has exactly what we want, when we want it, for either a shoot, painting a landscape or ... playing guitar.

 

I guess we can stress over the exact settings for a given magazine cover shot or pigment for a painting or a fuzz box and amp for guitar picking if we hope to create or reproduce some exact image in our eyes or ears. To me, the composition is most important; getting it into functional professional presentation is barely behind it. The exact shades of color are among the least of my concerns.

 

Yeah, I'm dumb enough to have an ongoing case of GAS - but OTOH, it's almost inevitably for the feel and playability factors for what I'm doing. I'll admit that in my younger days "looks" and "brand/type" expectations of other band members had far too much influence on my decisions. Fractions of tone? Naaah.

 

m

 

yeah that's funny! The kid who can afford a thousand dollar guitar but can't play a lick or the kid who can shine the crap out of a cheap guitar. who would you rather listen to? Guitar playing is a 'transferable' skill in that when you can play THE guitar you can play any guitar cheap or expensive. The more expensive equipment is for players preference only. I've had cheap gear, we all started somewhere. I got to the point in my personal learning that I invested in a decent guitar and practiced at a student level. My student model (Ibanez AG86) was the guitar I learned to adjust action and intonation with, as the guitar was not so expensive that I'd worry about @#$% it up. Once I got to know the guitar and was familiar with the proper setup and care, I invested in a Gibson, knowing that I will take the time to polish the wood and appreciate it's value.

[Searcy]

You say this...

 

"I have yet to find any pickup other than some cheap one that has some low output that I wasn't able to get the sound I wanted out of it."

 

But that you say this...

 

"I have never been one who likes humbuckers much. "

 

 

 

See why that's funny?

[Rocky4]

I thought I had bad ears......

[LarryUK]

This reminds me of sports bikes. I used to see men at a meet that I used to go to with Fireblades/GSXR 1000's etc with expensive rearsets, weight saving fitting and sports pipes etc, but weighed 20 stone themselves. You have to look at yourself first.

All the gear in the world won't make you sound great if you're not.

I do agree with the general thing on pickups though. A decent amp can make any guitar sound OK. Plus most amps can give a decent sound (on dirty settings). Clean jazz settings and guitars are a different thing altogether.

Then there's SS vs Tubes. I think it's getting close now. The Vox valvetronix is ok and the Axe fx is probably better than a general valve amp.

The bottom line is money and knowledge.

[Guest Farnsbarns]

I have unplugged my R8 and handed it to another player with all the pots at 10, taken his R0 with all the pots at 10 and plugged it into my amp, still set as it was, and noticed a difference. The only difference between the two guitars is set up and the neck profile and perhaps a handful of turns on the pup bobbins. just remembered, the other guit has vintage PIOs as well)

 

I don't see how anyone who has so much as listened to a Fender Single coil and a Gibson humbucker can possibly believe that there is no difference between one pup and another. Still, like getting pissed on one pint, what ever **** you get for it from others it must save you a fortune.

[pippy]

...I have unplugged my R8 and handed it to another player with all the pots at 10, taken his R0 with all the pots at 10 and plugged it into my amp, still set as it was, and noticed a difference. The only difference between the two guitars is set up and the neck profile and perhaps a handful of turns on the pup bobbins. just remembered, the other guit has vintage PIOs as well)...

If you are talking about 'Marmalade' it still, AFAIK, has regular 'fake' Bees, Farns. It's Honey that has the PIOs so that's one thing 'less different'...

 

And yes, I agree completely; different LPs with exactly the same specs, wood and hardware can sound very different as my own R9 and R0 prove.

Then again, as Milo says, who except we ourselves will actually notice any difference?

 

As far as the general topic goes; I don't think Sea Sick Steve has either top-end guits or 'Boutique' amps but I could listen to him 'till the cows came home...

 

P.

[RowdyMoon]

How dare you express an opinion that goes against the norm...you must be chastised and mocked!!

[stein]

You say this...

 

"I have yet to find any pickup other than some cheap one that has some low output that I wasn't able to get the sound I wanted out of it."

 

But that you say this...

 

"I have never been one who likes humbuckers much. "

 

 

 

See why that's funny?

YOU need a STRAT!

 

I'm still waiting for those ultimate premium design Searcy STRAT pups. I'm a patient man.

 

A little side note, a bought a while back from a parts bin, a '69 grey bottom Strat pup. Haven't tried it yet, but to be honest, I'm expecting it to suck. That's just based on the "meh" impression of the reissues by Abby compared to the other Fender reissues I tried.

 

I lost my other "real" pups and parts bin in the storage deal, so no side-by-sides.

 

I might try it in this Paisley Strat I'm getting prepared to sell. Come to think of it, YOU should buy it. Only thing, you CAN'T get these wet.

[stein]

Some of us are just tone nerds. Sometimes, "tweaking" or upgrading isn't a nessesity, but fun. We might spend countless hours getting improvements and chasing tone, and it might SEEM to not be worth the time and expense, but it's the journey that's rewarding.

 

One slight difference might be slight, but to some, can be a definite and better improvement that he COMPLETELY likes, so it's "100% better".

 

Example: This summer I scored a vintage radio at a garage sale. 2 genuine RCA 6V6's from the late 50's/early 60's. Plugged then into my Deluxe Reverb, and sounds GREAT compared to the ones I pulled out.

 

The irony is, something sounds a little off...could be they aren't matched, or the bias needs reset. I'l be having to come to YOU for advise (when I get a little time, and replace my multimeter).

[catnine]

I think this is a very narrow-minded way of thinking. I implore you to take a Squier Affinity Strat and a Pocket Marshall and make them sound like a Les Paul Standard through a JCM800. Ain't gonna happen. By your logic it should be a piece of cake. But it isn't. Guitars, amps and pedals aren't as simple as you make them out to be. There's more to them than the sum of the parts.

 

Please show me how you make a BC Rich Warlock with Duncan Invaders through a 5150's lead channel with a Boss Metal Zone sound like a stock 50's Strat through a Twin Reverb.

 

-Ryan

 

I think you missed my point . I never said you could take some high output pu guitar and amp add in a metal zone and get it to sound like a strat through a twin reverb.

 

I was refering to people who already know where they need to go to get their basic sound or band sound and then buy into the idea that slapping in another set of pu's simply because they think there will be this drastic change and buying into hype. Same goes for a set of the same type tube . I do feel you could us a strat and a few pedals through a twin reverb and get close to the setup you describe.

 

My point was really about similar guitars say single coils and a similar amp with say EL-84's whether its a strat or a copy of one and an amp whether a vox or fender or crate with the same basic setup as far as a varied tone stack and the same power tubes and the same sized speaker you can for all practical purposed get very close to the same sound .

 

I didn't bring this up because I haven't tried it or bought into the same hype myself . I never liked humbuckers because they do sound different than single coils and were designed to cancel out hum yet you can get high output single coils that cancel hum yet they still won't sould the same yet you are now closer to the setup you described.

[catnine]

I am a little surprised that you ask such a question. I mean, after reading your other post (in particular, the "mooded champ" one), you have a LOT of knowledge on how amps work and how to make them better.

 

I am guessing, maybe one part of it is, you know how to turn a knob and flip a switch? Not to sound cynical, I think we all have been guilty of not utilizing these basic features. Most amps are pretty versital in the extremes they can do, so in a lot of ways, rather than resorts to "mods", changes, additions, etc., a turn of the tone knob or going to a different pup position gets more done.

 

I agree and that was my point.

I am not the one who modded a champ , I was just offering a few tips on how the champ should be biased so as not to burn the power tube out and get it back to it's original sound and one small mod some do to loosen up the sound taking out the NFB loop / My champ is not modded other than the NFB deal. I can get lots of different sounds out of a champ just using the controls that exist and using my guitar controls or selecting a different PU off the 5 position switch and the three PU's.

[catnine]

Why did tubes come back? Solid state couldn't do it like that! If you haven't shelled out for real tube sound in an amp you should! Why do people want alnico magnets in their speakers and pickups? Alnico magnets are supposed to sound warmer at lower volumes, although the newer ceramic mags can take the punishment of high volume. There's a use for each. I don't know much about the neodynium mags other than that they're supposed to be light. There should be an aftermarket for upgrades and parts. In fact I'd like to see local dealers stock some speaker choices. I shipped a Weber Classic Alnico 30w from Indiana to Ontario because I wished to get some learning time on an alnico speaker. Not many players in my neck of the woods have Weber speakers, they sort of have an exotic appeal and when the Canadian dollar is high against the US dollar it's a good time for Canadians to buy into American goods. Does that make me a tone snob, probably. I search the web for aftermarket upgrades such as alnico speakers, high quality tubes (I shipped a pair of Genelex Gold Lion 6V6's), and electronics (considering pio caps for my lp). Is it worth the cost and effort? Well lets put it this way. Way back when alnico was the only magnets you could get in your speakers and pickups, that was the standard. Then the cobalt element became expensive as it was used on bombs in the war. The cost ratio today is something like 5:1, 50 dollars for an alnico speaker, to a 10 dollar ceramic (copper ferrite). The alnico is not superior, although it has some nice qualities and the ceramic magnet speakers and pickups of today are much less costly to produce than the old style alnico (aluminum/nickel/cobalt). Most of the players in my city stick to stock parts on their guitars and amps and it's somewhat of a shame because there are some really good hot rod mods out there! Changing your tone on the output end of your sound can be as simple as a speaker and tube change in your amp.

 

Yes I did say a speaker makes a difference and alnicos do come in pretty high watt ratings , not as high as ceramic but then you need to consider the cone size and coil size . Alnico work better with tube amps because alnico tend to de-magnatize while working ,it's temporary and reactes in the moment giving them the warm compressed tone.

[catnine]

You say this...

 

"I have yet to find any pickup other than some cheap one that has some low output that I wasn't able to get the sound I wanted out of it."

 

But that you say this...

 

"I have never been one who likes humbuckers much. "

 

 

 

See why that's funny?

 

I never said there is no difference in a single coil or humbucker and I was not camparing them as the same. I did say I could if I dialed things in I could get the sound I was after. I don't like humbuckers because they have 12 poles magnatized pulling on the strings close together so they do tend to strangle the string vib . I was talking about people who change pu's with the same type and amps with the same type tubes . If someone wants high output HB's then fine if that gets them where they want to be yet much of the choices out there are for the most part hype when you consider all the brand names and all promising to change your sound.