Brass Instruments Question

[Rocky4]

My stepson plays a trumpet and my wife plays the piano. As they tried to play a song together, their notes didn't match. My wife's sister, who makes a living teaching piano, explained that brass instruments have to be transposed. Does anybody understand this? I thought A-440 was an A. I iz confuzed.

[brundaddy]

IIRC, 440-hz is AKA "Concert C."

[rct]

If the kid was playing trumpet reading the Mrs piano music it won't work. The piano is a natural instrument, the trumpet is, man I hope I remember, either Bflat or F, so the music has to be transposed to his key.

 

The reasons are long and deep as her, most don't make sense at all probably, some do. For the woodwinds I believe it is a matter of fingering the valves, using each of the key'd instruments allows the player to use the same fingerings. I remember most trumpet players I've ever played with transposing as they read it, which is astounding to me.

 

Music Theory, it isn't just a good idea, it's the law. Somewhere.

 

And further, A = somewhere between about 418 and 452 or so. Tori has hers at 436 for singing. Orchestras determine their concert pitch based on what the leader says it will be, and the instruments are tuned to that relative pitch using A = whatever they've decided. The use of "concert pitch" is a very old and hotly debated idea from...1700s or so. At least, hotly debated amongst the music history/theory uber nerds.

 

rct

[grampa]

If the kid was playing trumpet reading the Mrs piano music it won't work. The piano is a natural instrument, the trumpet is, man I hope I remember, either Bflat or F, so the music has to be transposed to his key.

 

The reasons are long and deep as her, most don't make sense at all probably, some do. For the woodwinds I believe it is a matter of fingering the valves, using each of the key'd instruments allows the player to use the same fingerings. I remember most trumpet players I've ever played with transposing as they read it, which is astounding to me.

 

Music Theory, it isn't just a good idea, it's the law. Somewhere.

 

And further, A = somewhere between about 418 and 452 or so. Tori has hers at 436 for singing. Orchestras determine their concert pitch based on what the leader says it will be, and the instruments are tuned to that relative pitch using A = whatever they've decided. The use of "concert pitch" is a very old and hotly debated idea from...1700s or so. At least, hotly debated amongst the music history/theory uber nerds.

 

rct

 

Well exlained. I knew that stuff years ago and your explanation reminded me. It was weird then and still is. But then, it is the Law.

[badbluesplayer]

A piano is in the key of C. The trumpet is in the key of B flat. When a trumpet player plays a C, it comes out the same as a b flat on the piano. That's why you have to transpose the music. They will sound great together once you figure out what notes to play. The trumpet player needs to play the notes one whole step higher to get the same note as the piano.

 

So you can take the piano music and move the notes up on the staff by a whole step to get the trumpet music.

[badbluesplayer]

BTW, orchestras tune to the oboe, because you can't adjust the tuning on an oboe. The other instruments tune to the oboe by ear. They play the same sounding note and tune to that.

[rct]

BTW, orchestras tune to the oboe, because you can't adjust the tuning on an oboe. The other instruments tune to the oboe by ear. They play the same sounding note and tune to that.

 

I don't know you, and I'm not yelling at you, and I'm not just being a 8=====D, but that just isn't true. Oboes are tuned to electronic tuners via the reed and the jaw of the player, just like the rest of the wood winds. If it was, as many have said, true that oboes can't be tuned, how on earth would an ochestra have the second third and fourth chair oboes? They would have to have all been built miraculously in tune to each other! And then, there's that pesky harp and piano, among other instruments, that would have to be somehow tuned up 10 minutes prior to showtime?

 

I'm sorry, it just isn't true, but it is often repeated.

 

rct

[Rocky4]

Thanks all. .....nothings easy........

[badbluesplayer]

I don't know you, and I'm not yelling at you, and I'm not just being a 8=====D, but that just isn't true. Oboes are tuned to electronic tuners via the reed and the jaw of the player, just like the rest of the wood winds. If it was, as many have said, true that oboes can't be tuned, how on earth would an ochestra have the second third and fourth chair oboes? They would have to have all been built miraculously in tune to each other! And then, there's that pesky harp and piano, among other instruments, that would have to be somehow tuned up 10 minutes prior to showtime?

 

I'm sorry, it just isn't true, but it is often repeated.

 

rct

 

Geez. Dude. I guess you've never been in an orchestra. What instrument did your orchestra tune to? Best I can remember, we all tuned to the oboe. Are you familiar with how these various instruments are made? Have you ever... um... played an orchestral instrument or.... um... tuned to an oboe? I played the trumpet. My sister played the oboe, too, so I'd be pretty dumb if I didn't know how this stuff worked.

 

Did you look that stuff up on the internet? The stuff about the electronic tuners. That's what they do when the manufacture them, dude. Not when you tune up for the day's playing.

 

Dude!!

[Versatile]

As mentioned, most trumpets are Bb instruments

 

As are clarinets, tenor and soprano sax, trombone etc

 

Therefore usually separate music is used when playing with 'concert pitch' instruments like piano, guitar, strings etc

 

One cunning trick I use is to engage the 'transpose' facility on most/all electronic keyboards

 

So transposing electronically down 2 semitones to Bb allows the same sheet music to be used by keyboard and trumpet etc...

 

V

 

[rct]

Geez. Dude. I guess you've never been in an orchestra. What instrument did your orchestra tune to? Best I can remember, we all tuned to the oboe. Are you familiar with how these various instruments are made? Have you ever... um... played an orchestral instrument or.... um... tuned to an oboe? I played the trumpet. My sister played the oboe, too, so I'd be pretty dumb if I didn't know how this stuff worked.

 

Did you look that stuff up on the internet? The stuff about the electronic tuners. That's what they do when the manufacture them, dude. Not when you tune up for the day's playing.

 

Dude!!

 

I didn't say nobody tuned to the oboe, I said it isn't true that it can't be tuned. Ask your sister how many times she was first at the piano, so they could then tune the back rows farthest from the piano with the oboe. Ask her how many reeds she carried and what was the difference between them. Ask her how she intonated her oboe. Every orchestral job I have ever been the piano player at used the oboe to tune, but the oboe was first over to the piano. In this century, every orchestral job I've been to had horn and wind players with tuners getting themselves tuned before the guy with the stick started hollering at them. It saves time, lots of expensive, boring time, like getting the drums set up in the studio boring time.

 

And I have never been to an orchestral job that required redoing the piano to get in tune with the oboe.

 

And in hours and hours of dull and tedious theory and history reading, there are hours and hours of dull and tedious reasons why the oboe has been used to tune the orchestra.

 

And since this is the internet, and I'm only relating experiences in life, I'll have to disclaim it with I Could Be Wrong. And if your experiences are different, I would be happy to hear them and we could have a coffee and a beer and laugh about the dorkestra.

 

rct

[Notes_Norton]

Oboes can be tuned. But tuning an oboe requires trimming the reed and if you trim too much, you have to trash the reed. So it can't really be re-tuned on the fly. Modern oboists have their reed tools and an electronic tuner always handy.

 

Why does the orchestra tune to the oboe? Here's my opinion. Besides for the difficulty of the oboist trimming the reed on stage, if everybody was tuning to the violin player, and you heard a couple of dozen violinists tuning at the same time, how would you distinguish between the alpha violinist (concertmaster) or the others. Which would you tune to? The oboe has a nasal tone that cuts through the orchestra making it easy to identify with your ears while everybody else is also tuning up.

 

I tried oboe a long time ago when I was in band. Didn't like it. Too much fussing with the reads and too much back pressure with the breath. Oboists (1) are always messing with their reeds and (2) have red faces when they play (called Oboe Exploding Head Syndrome). The fingering is similar to a sax though.

 

I do play all saxophones and currently own tenor and alto saxophones. (I've owned soprano and baritone saxes in the past).

 

C instruments are tuned in 'concert key' and prime examples are piano, soprano flute, and guitar. Others are called transposing instruments (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transposing_instrument for a general explanation)

 

Tenor, soprano and bass saxophones are Bb instruments (like the Trumpet). When the C instruments play a Bb, I have to play a C on my tenor sax.

 

Alto and baritone saxes are Eb instruments. When the C instruments are playing a Bb, I have to play an Eb on my alto sax to match the pitch.

 

Yes I know it's weird, and the origins are indeed buried in undocumented history. And they have good and bad points. There are a lot of weird things about music that are buried in history, but then there are a lot of inconsistent things about the English language that are also buried in history.

 

The bad point is that it's confusing. If I'm jamming on tenor with a guitarist or pianist and they bring out some sheet music, I have to mentally change the key signature (add two sharps or subtract two flats) and transpose every note in my head up a whole step. Being predominantly a tenor player, I can't read concert key sheet music and transpose for alto (a sixth above concert).

 

The good point is although the pitches sound different, fingering a G or any other note on my tenor sax is the same as fingering a G on the alto. So music written for alto and tenor is transposed for each and switching from sax to sax makes reading the music written for each sax the same.

 

BTW, they also make "C Melody" saxes that are in concert key, although they are uncommon. They used to make saxes tuned in F but I don't believe you can get one anymore. And they make other Bb and Eb saxes like sopranino, bass, contrabass and a few others.

 

To understand more about music and the mechanics of music, I strongly recommend getting a music theory book. Basic music theory is not difficult at all to grasp, and with a better understanding of "the why's" of music, you will find your playing easier.

 

Notes

[rct]

Why does the orchestra tune to the oboe? Here's my opinion. Besides for the difficulty of the oboist trimming the reed on stage, if everybody was tuning to the violin player, and you heard a couple of dozen violinists tuning at the same time, how would you distinguish between the alpha violinist (concertmaster) or the others. Which would you tune to? The oboe has a nasal tone that cuts through the orchestra making it easy to identify with your ears while everybody else is also tuning up.

 

It's always been 'splained to me that way, it has the most(or least) overtones and can be heard by the most ears, especially the farther away seats, since he sits in the middle usually.

 

The bad point is that it's confusing. If I'm jamming on tenor with a guitarist or pianist and they bring out some sheet music, I have to mentally change the key signature (add two sharps or subtract two flats) and transpose every note in my head up a whole step. Being predominantly a tenor player, I can't read concert key sheet music and transpose for alto (a sixth above concert).

 

I would like to thank you and all of you guys that can do that on behalf of all of the guys like me that can barely read enough to get through the piano or <shudder> guitar parts without too much humiliation. You guys rock hardest, all of you readers and transposers on the spot.

 

You guys make jazz...well, lets not get carried away. Just a big Thanks!

 

rct

[badbluesplayer]

It's always been 'splained to me that way, it has the most(or least) overtones and can be heard by the most ears, especially the farther away seats, since he sits in the middle usually.

 

 

 

I would like to thank you and all of you guys that can do that on behalf of all of the guys like me that can barely read enough to get through the piano or <shudder> guitar parts without too much humiliation. You guys rock hardest, all of you readers and transposers on the spot.

 

You guys make jazz...well, lets not get carried away. Just a big Thanks!

 

rct

 

Well I'm glad you straightened my a$$ out on this. I'm really emotionally invested in my eighth grade music education and it's important to be able to measure myself against other people with eighth grade music educations, like you. Ya little dou$&@ bag.

[sjl200]

Thanks Notes,I appreciate you taking the time for the explanation , I learned something .

[milod]

I find it interesting how "we" end up with such an odd batch of instruments / tunings.

 

One of my biggest challenges was some 40 years ago having just a cupla days to help out a friend who was the head of a small college theater/music department doing the musical Man of La Mancha. Their guitar player came down ill with less than a week before performances. Everything was in Ab, Bb and Eb.

 

So... Learned as much of the book by playing a vinyl over and over - and did a lot of transposing. Lucky for me, it was just chord for chord rather than note by note as "Notes" has to do.

 

I do think it's type of challenge all of us should consider taking up at some point, just for fun. A capo can work to an extent on really simple stuff for guitar players, but... it ain't always gonna make it.

 

m