retrorod Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 To start with, it has been a good day. The Redskins beat the Browns....always cause for a celebration. And as I sometimes do, I have spent some time on the net and on Ebay most recently and went to perusing guitars and amps.....Just looking, mind you.... and checking prices. Seeing what the state of the economy is with used/vintage instruments! Conclusion: There are a few good deals to be had through private auctions (albeit risky).....BUT most noticeably in the "Dealer category" of Ebay listings is that they are still "damn proud" of their inventory[crying] In my personal opinion, the vintage guitar market has 'realistically' taken a hit as the real estate market has, yet I still see unrealistic prices being asked by vintage dealers, such as this '56 CF100E in need of a neck reset offered by Gary's Classic Guitars on EBAY... http://www.ebay.com/...=item4d03ffe436 Now, mind you, I am not picking on Gary or his business. He has 250+ 'other items' (rather high dollar) to sell on EBAY.....check them out! However, the thought ocurred to me that they are priced high.....BECAUSE he really doesn't want to sell them! So therefore, the question is......would he cry because someone actually bought one for the asking price?.....OR- simply laugh all the way to the bank[confused] .................I wonder!.....Probably BOTH! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedzep Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 As a lifelong Giants fan, I might have to take back all the nice things I've said about you, especially considering today's dismantling. I don't think the profit margin on the nice vintage models is dramatic as they were probably not bought at rock bottom price. It's still nickel and dime retail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 There may well be a long distance between asking price and selling price in today's market. If they aren't willing to negotiate on these over-priced guitars, they are going to be sitting on them for a long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retrorod Posted December 17, 2012 Author Share Posted December 17, 2012 Thats what I,m saying guys!!!! Stuff over 5 grand ain't nickle and dime in my world! ....And I don,t see a "dicker" button to push on a 'Buy it Now' listing of his[scared] ....He doesn't care! Sorry Dave, my loyalties have to go with my son-in-laws team! I am STILL a nice guy though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedzep Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 It's nickel and dime to dealers and sellers though. A dealer buys a J45 for $3100 and tries to resell for $4000. However, he sits on it for a year and a half until he finally accepts an offer of $3700. So he babysat for it all that time and ended up with only $600. Not bad for a model like the J45, but most of the other stock renders, say, a hundred bucks in profit more or less as he chips away at his inventory. He has to keep that pace going to make a buck. It must be tiring and not really profitable. When I get the Elderly updates and look at the prices, I say to myself, who's paying that much for any given guitar. The answer is, hardly anyone. So it goes in the world of vintage and antique objects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retrorod Posted December 17, 2012 Author Share Posted December 17, 2012 I understand that any dealer with a brick and mortar business with employees has a lot of overhead. I believe that those folks survive on the 30-50% markup of the cheaper, everyday, joe-blow, type items that music stores sell. That and band instrument rentals and lessons, etc..... I really don,t know who might be paying these bloated prices for used and vintage instruments? I don,t think that even the Europeans are seeing it "Euro-wise" anymore? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Ha! I like it, Rod - Gary doesn't really want to sell any guitars! You may be right - I emailed him once with no reply..... BluesKing777. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 I'm a little confused. I thought it costed something to run an EBAY ad? If it does, he is spending a LOT of money, but at those prices, he only has to sell ONE item to keep him going for a while. It occurs to me, the prices could be what I could only describe as a used "retail" price, or a starting point for negotiation. I think if you take off like 35-40%, the prices seem like right there. But the ads: no "make an offer" option. And also, every ad says "returns not accepted", and very little description of the individual guitars in the ads. But every ad has a phone#. Perhaps this is a storefront, and the intention is not NOT sell through the ad, avoiding EBAY fees? I like the '56 goldtop for 50 cake. I guess the "exactly as described" disclaimer works if you don't mention the broken headstock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Folks like Gary, Elderly, Umanov and others can afford to sit on inventory so they are not shy when it comes to asking prices. But as already noted asking price and getting price are often two different things. And there is also the added value in knowing you will be getting what you think you are getting and in the condition described as opposed to dealing with individual sellers. The best bargains I tend to run across are to be found with the Mom & Pop stores. These guys often cannot afford to have stock hanging on the walls. The other week I stumbled across a neat little Hoboken-made Guild M-20. Asking price was $1250. By the time I left the store I could have walked out with it for $850. Abird in the hand is worth two in the busk kinda thing I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merseybeat1963 Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 There's a direct relation to they're cost and the price they put on it..they dont get em for free. I dont think these people are buying the guitars outright and sitting on such an inventory.. A lot of the guitars are on consignment..and base cost price set by the owner,who, if its a newish used guitar, he's selling for less than what he paid. On consignment dealer usually wants aprox 17-20%. My brother whos done a lot of buying & selling in the past considered Garys not a good place to buy from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
62burst Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Any & every good conspiracy theorist knows that Gary is actually a hologram created & supplied with guitars by the secret Inner Circle of vintage guitar dealers to artificially buoy guitar values, which seemingly continue to soften. . . ; ). In Gary's defense, some Internet research will turn up a profile article on him detailing how he had considerable success in the corporate world, got out while the getting was good, & invested heavily in his passion; guitars. His shop is a large, upscale showroom in a major metro area with a correspondingly high cost of living. I'm also quite certain he knows his way about the tax code so that he can surround himself with his favorite objects & make a sale often enough to continue doing what he loves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobouz Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 I don't browse ebay, but from what I've seen of Gary's stock on Gbase, his prices are a joke. Also, I never buy a guitar sight unseen without a return + refund option. So basically, Gary & I will never do business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedzep Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 Any & every good conspiracy theorist knows that Gary is actually a hologram created & supplied with guitars by the secret Inner Circle of vintage guitar dealers to artificially buoy guitar values, which seemingly continue to soften. . . ; ). In Gary's defense, some Internet research will turn up a profile article on him detailing how he had considerable success in the corporate world, got out while the getting was good, & invested heavily in his passion; guitars. His shop is a large, upscale showroom in a major metro area with a correspondingly high cost of living. I'm also quite certain he knows his way about the tax code so that he can surround himself with his favorite objects & make a sale often enough to continue doing what he loves. 'Nuf said. You really summed it up. If I unloaded a big nut and found myself looking to surround myself with the thing I'm passionate about, old acoustic guitars, I would be happy to let it morph back and forth between being a collection and a retail exchange. It sounds like a lovely existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewilyfool Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 I give some of the credit (blame) goes to Vintage guitar Price guide and George Gruhn's price guide, and other "blue book" type of books that quote (read DETERMINE) prices of vintage guitars. A lot of these so-called price guides are self fulfilling prophesies of what the market will bear. Surely a person who makes his or her living at selling vintage guitars, may have a bit of a conflict of interest when preparing prices for publication, which may be self serving. I've ranted about this myself before....those "vintage" guitar events like the Marin County Guitar show.....most of the instruments are basically just OLD guitars...and of course, every price is the high bluebook price whether it needs a $1000 of repair work just to be playable or not. But thats what the price guide says!!!! So we must believe it???? It's ridiculous....most of the sellers at this thing rarely sell guitars, I've only seen two transactions to attendees.....mostly used car salesmen and horse traders moving instruments between themselves. It's pretty much a closed shop, with fixed prices determined by a couple of foxes in the hen house, and it all just reeks of a used car lot......Craig's List and EBAY are not far behind.....hey guys....1994 is NOT vintage.....or antique...or anything special to claim for your guitar.....lol.....Here's a guy asking $2900 for a '69 double "X" braced Norlin J-45???? Is he nuts??? If it sold for $1200 I would be surprised.... http://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/msg/3476436434.html Here's a guy, 6 months with this ad, Martin Eric Clapton for $3300???? Is he nuts?????....lol....if it would sell for $2K he would be lucky..... http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/msg/3461319344.html So, BUYER BEWARE........if you are paying $1000 dollars more for an inferior '69 J-45 than a brand new Bozeman J-45, then you may need to re-evaluate your value system...lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 I give some of the credit (blame) goes to Vintage guitar Price guide and George Gruhn's price guide, and other "blue book" type of books that quote (read DETERMINE) prices of vintage guitars. A lot of these so-called price guides are self fulfilling prophesies of what the market will bear. Surely a person who makes his or her living at selling vintage guitars, may have a bit of a conflict of interest when preparing prices for publication, which may be self serving. I've ranted about this myself before....those "vintage" guitar events like the Marin County Guitar show.....most of the instruments are basically just OLD guitars...and of course, every price is the high bluebook price whether it needs a $1000 of repair work just to be playable or not. But thats what the price guide says!!!! So we must believe it???? It's ridiculous....most of the sellers at this thing rarely sell guitars, I've only seen two transactions to attendees.....mostly used car salesmen and horse traders moving instruments between themselves. It's pretty much a closed shop, with fixed prices determined by a couple of foxes in the hen house, and it all just reeks of a used car lot......Craig's List and EBAY are not far behind.....hey guys....1994 is NOT vintage.....or antique...or anything special to claim for your guitar.....lol.....Here's a guy asking $2900 for a '69 double "X" braced Norlin J-45???? Is he nuts??? If it sold for $1200 I would be surprised.... http://sfbay.craigsl...3476436434.html Here's a guy, 6 months with this ad, Martin Eric Clapton for $3300???? Is he nuts?????....lol....if it would sell for $2K he would be lucky..... http://sfbay.craigsl...3461319344.html So, BUYER BEWARE........if you are paying $1000 dollars more for an inferior '69 J-45 than a brand new Bozeman J-45, then you may need to re-evaluate your value system...lol Are you getting upset Wily? By your grumpyish tone, I assume you got fleeced on your Martin? Don't worry, it's only money..a shark will detach it from you one way or another. I personally have had more problems at local guitar shops - I should name the shark in particular but will show restraint as other decent people can work there.... BluesKing777. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedzep Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 You simply have to know the value range of the guitar you're interested in. Then it's a matter of how badly you want it. It's called shopping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewilyfool Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 Are you getting upset Wily? By your grumpyish tone, I assume you got fleeced on your Martin? Don't worry, it's only money..a shark will detach it from you one way or another. I personally have had more problems at local guitar shops - I should name the shark in particular but will show restraint as other decent people can work there.... BluesKing777. Nah....I just thought this was a "RANT" thread....lol.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 got out while the getting was good, & invested heavily in his passion; guitars. So in other words, his investment tanked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedzep Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 So in other words, his investment tanked. Or he cashed in knowing his money would outlive him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuestionMark Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 A lot of vintage guitar collecting is hobby as well as investment oriented. The collectible vintage guiar market is no different than other collectible markets such as collectible Corvettes, model trains, or civil war collectibles. Plus, a lot of trading of instruments goes on. Its also at times simply a thing of collecting, like any other form of collecting...trying to add something to the collection just to have it in the collection. Collecting vintage guitars isn't necessarily the same as just buying a guitar to play it although to many collectors that can also be an aspect. Like any other collectors market, an item can be hot it the collectible market...meaning other collectors are looking to add the item to their collection...which, of course can cause its price to be higher. Then, there's the aspect of trying to find an item before it becomes a hot item in the collectible market...always a crapshoot, but some collectors actually have a pretty good pulse on the next big collectible item and can buy cheap and sell high. Others just keep certain instruments in their collection for the long haul cause they like having them and in the long run may be able to make some money on it as certain items, though they go up and down in price in the long term...over the long term are likely to increase in value due the way the collectible market works in the long run. Some collectors undoubtedly bought when the market was at a peak before overall values dropped from the economic downturn. But, many keep buying and selling for the fun of the hobby of collecting which also drives the market. Just my two cents. QM aka Jazzman Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 Nah....I just thought this was a "RANT" thread....lol.... Further from my rant about my local sharks and crooks - look at these new hummingbird prices - hang on to your hat! http://www.gallinsmp.../?q=hummingbird Do they seriously sell a hummingbird for that? What a joke. These people are way worse than the vintage guitar guy. BluesKing777. EDIT: I was going to post a link to a 68 Hummingbird in Elderly's for 2500 approx. to illustrate the fact that I could fly to Michigan, stay a week, buy the Hummingbird, fly home to Aust, all cheaper than buying from a local crook, but guess what? Someone just bought the Hummingbird at Elderlys!!!!!! Anyone here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duluthdan Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 A '68 for $2,500? How about $2,000? Bit road worn, ok perhaps a bit more than a bit. This one has a nut wicth of 1 1/2 ? That's crazy small for me. http://www.williesguitars.com/index.cfm/gibson_acoustics/7/inventory/11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobouz Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 I give some of the credit (blame) goes to Vintage guitar Price guide and George Gruhn's price guide, and other "blue book" type of books that quote (read DETERMINE) prices of vintage guitars. A lot of these so-called price guides are self fulfilling prophesies of what the market will bear. Surely a person who makes his or her living at selling vintage guitars, may have a bit of a conflict of interest when preparing prices for publication, which may be self serving. Imho, the Vintage Guitar Price Guide is often quite reasonably in the ballpark of what a guitar should go for. Many of the Gbase crowd like Gary seem to far exceed VG's listed price range for almost everything. As for Gruhn's book, unless version 3 (which I don't have) is different from version 2 (which I do have), it is not a price guide at all, but rather an identification guide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retrorod Posted December 18, 2012 Author Share Posted December 18, 2012 Further from my rant about my local sharks and crooks - look at these new hummingbird prices - hang on to your hat! http://www.gallinsmp.../?q=hummingbird Do they seriously sell a hummingbird for that? What a joke. These people are way worse than the vintage guitar guy. BluesKing777. EDIT: I was going to post a link to a 68 Hummingbird in Elderly's for 2500 approx. to illustrate the fact that I could fly to Michigan, stay a week, buy the Hummingbird, fly home to Aust, all cheaper than buying from a local crook, but guess what? Someone just bought the Hummingbird at Elderlys!!!!!! Anyone here? I saw that '68 also. Was drooling profusely......Cherry burst ...one of my favorite flavors...YUM! But no, it wasn't me.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParlourMan Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 Surely a person who makes his or her living at selling vintage guitars, may have a bit of a conflict of interest when preparing prices for publication, which may be self serving. Just a tad, yes... most of the instruments are basically just OLD guitars...and of course, every price is the high bluebook price whether it needs a $1000 of repair work just to be playable or not. But thats what the price guide says!!!! So we must believe it???? It's ridiculous.... Won't be popular but I haven't died of unpopularity yet so here goes...the vast majority of vintage guitars I have played, are just old wood, 60's in particular were fairly unimpressive if I was to generalise. Some have been proper shite. The quicker people see through ridiculous terms such as "mojo", "backstory" and all the other romantic nonsense we see each day the quicker they will come to a healthier attitude to the guitar. Lest we forget mojo, backstory and other romantic terms are not transferable, the reality is you're buying someone else's wear & tear, if it's structurally OK, sounds good and is at a fair/reasonable price charge on, if not the reality of what you're doing is dropping yer pants and grabbing yer ankles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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