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Scammer or fool?

jannusguy2

By jannusguy2
in Gibson Acoustic

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j45nick

j45nick

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That guitar is a bit of a mystery to me. It clearly isn't what it is represented to be. I would say the body is from the 1960's or 70's, but I don't know about the neck. It's multi-piece neck that has grain like maple. Some 'Birds and other square dreads like the SJ in the 70's had laminated maple necks, but this one also has an unbound fretboard.

 

In the late 70's some guitars had serial numbers on decals on the back of headstocks, according to Fabulous Flat-Tops, and those would be lost in the case of a re-finish. The banner logo is either a later addition, or the neck came from an earlier guitar.

 

The top might be a re-spray, since they have sprayed over the rosette without masking.

 

At best, this is probably one of the many odd-ball dread versions Gibson was making in the 70's, with some aftermarket "upgrades".

 

In any case, the seller talks a good game that is total BS, and is either lying through his teeth, or stupid.

 

edit: I just emailed the guy and told him he was misrepresenting the guitar.

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62burst

62burst

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When luthiers go bad. No doubt a luthe somewhere is cashing his check & keeping his secrets. It is unfortunate that the very online resources we use to learn about old Gibsons are also being used by forgers in an attempt to separate people from their money.

 

Fortunately, by the time one is deep into the vintage scene, enough knowledge is in place so that guitars like this one make the alarm bells sound.

 

There are a couple of folks at the Vintage Corner who keep pretty good records (photographic, as well) of vintage guitars that show up in the various online marketplaces such as eBay. Each "Banner" logo, headstock, etc. is like a fingerprint.

 

Also makes a good case for the importance of resources such as the Banner Registry; as these old timers get closeted away & otherwise cast into obscurity, it is good to have a paper trail.

 

I hope the seller paid about $15K for the neck, or the basket case it was attached to.

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j45nick

j45nick

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I've actually exchanged several emails with the seller today. He is trying to bluff his way through this. Apparently, others have told him this is not a "1942 SJ". He claims it can't be a Norlin-era guitar, because "Norlin did away with X-bracing, and this is X-braced". He says he knows the neck is real, but I pointed out that it is a 20-fret board, which did not come into being until about 1955.

 

I told him to post pictures here, and we'll try to help him figure it out. We'll see if he does that, or continues to bluff through. I may have put the fear of God into him, but who knows?

 

It could well be an original neck grafted onto a later body, with a new fretboard. But it ain't a "1942 SJ" worth $15,000.

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jannusguy2

jannusguy2

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I've actually exchanged several emails with the seller today. He is trying to bluff his way through this. Apparently, others have told him this is not a "1942 SJ". He claims it can't be a Norlin-era guitar, because "Norlin did away with X-bracing, and this is X-braced". He says he knows the neck is real, but I pointed out that it is a 20-fret board, which did not come into being until about 1955.

 

I told him to post pictures here, and we'll try to help him figure it out. We'll see if he does that, or continues to bluff through. I may have put the fear of God into him, but who knows?

 

It could well be an original neck grafted onto a later body, with a new fretboard. But it ain't a "1942 SJ" worth $15,000.

seems he was getting from both barrels btwn the 2 of us. glad to see he removed it.

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j45nick

j45nick

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seems he was getting from both barrels btwn the 2 of us. glad to see he removed it.

 

 

He says the guitar has scalloped top bracing, but I suspect he doesn't even know what that means. He claims he is going to post it (maybe here?) to try to figure out what it is.

 

We'll see. It's such an agregious misrepresentation that I'm not sure he even wants to know what it is.

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stein

stein

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Not a vintage Gibson flat-top expert, But a couple things seen obvious:

 

The price: where does this price come from? If a guy was to come up with a price like that, there would be some research done, right?

 

His ad does have some details as things "wrong" with it (cracks, missing fon, etc.). Did somehow "refin" skip his radar?

 

How does one know enough to mention the truss rod and NOT be aware it's a SQUARE SHOULDER body!

 

Here is my guess: there is no way a guy can know some of what he knows and not have been made aware of these other things. Either he has been taken by someone else, or the guy is not honest with himself when told, selectively choosing what he wants to believe, or he just took a chance thinking some fool would snatch it up before they found out. Regardless of HIS definition of honesty, the result is separating another from their money.

 

Someone in the chain here isn't being striaght.

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j45nick

j45nick

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Update: Guitar has been pulled. Seller says he has unsuccessfully tried to post photos on UMGF today. I provided the link to this forum. If he does come up with better photos, it will be interesting to see if we can figure out what this beast actually is, assuming he is honestly trying to figure it out rather than just pull the wool over someone's eyes.

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j45nick

j45nick

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And, this one is priced more appropriately to reflect as well.

 

 

Yes, but it is not what it is represented to be unless it was re-topped and a new fretboard put on when it was re-finished, as it has a later soundhole rosette and a 20-fret board. Only the FON and a first-hand inspection will confirm the year.

 

At least it is recognizable as a J-45, unlike the earlier bogus "1942 SJ".

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stein

stein

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Yes, but it is not what it is represented to be unless it was re-topped and a new fretboard put on when it was re-finished, as it has a later soundhole rosette and a 20-fret board. Only the FON and a first-hand inspection will confirm the year.

 

Totally missed that.

 

Yea, there is a big difference between the "possibility" or claim that it was refin'ed by Gibson or whatever else, and also not paying a premium. But a different year, or vintage vs modern is different, even if they are worth or selling for about the same.

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E-minor7

E-minor7

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Glad you found and posted this, jannus – noticed it yesterday and thought of doin' the same thing.

I regarded the guitar refinished, but saw the neck/body pretty well together (from the photographed angle anyway).

 

Yeps, the thing should be stopped – a healthy thing he realized that. Seems people don't wanna waste their Bay-credibility.

 

If he should be given any defence, he might be a total amateur on the topic (let's not forget some are) and only have checked the 2 codes Southern Jumbo and Banner. That, as we know, spells value.

 

I mean, if he wanted to pull someones leg, why do it by throwing himself in a pool of sharks.

Interesting you took contact Nick - I've done the same thing a couple of times with various, but mostly positive respons. To report and get a dialogue up here within 24 hours is pretty darn net-hot.

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j45nick

j45nick

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Interesting you took contact Nick - I've done the same thing a couple of times with various, but mostly positive respons. To report and get a dialogue up here within 24 hours is pretty darn net-hot.

 

 

 

I've only done this a few times, when a guitar was blatantly misrepresented. I just offends me when such claims are so obviously wrong.

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