I Started an Internet Petition at GoPetition

[kaleb]

It's a petition for Tommy Thayer and Eric Singer to finally get their own characters. Hopefully It'll reach the big boys.

 

My link

[AlanH]

You're going to kill me for saying this but, although I think Peter and Ace are the two coolest dudes on the planet, I would go and see the the current lineup with pseudo Spaceman and Cat because it's the only way to see as authentic a Kiss show as possible right now. That's because there is no way on earth that the original members will get back together again. What's more Singer and, in particular, Thayer put in a tight, well controlled performance which holds the whole thing together whereas the original lineup would, on many nights, sound horrible in 2013.

[kaleb]

You're going to kill me for saying this but, although I think Peter and Ace are the two coolest dudes on the planet, I would go and see the the current lineup with pseudo Spaceman and Cat because it's the only way to see as authentic a Kiss show as possible right now. That's because there is no way on earth that the original members will get back together again. What's more Singer and, in particular, Thayer put in a tight, well controlled performance which holds the whole thing together whereas the original lineup would, on many nights, sound horrible in 2013.

 

The problem is that Gene and Paul actually believe their own hype (just like the tail-end of the 70s when Gene said that "KISS has become entertainment for the whole family"). I don't want a KISS with no original members in it. There's already a **** ton of those. Tribute bands. Even though I think Ace IS the old-school KISS sound, Gene and Paul ARE KISS no matter what. The original members will not and should never reunite (especially after Peter's book....I doubt Ace will even wanna talk to him, let alone Gene and Paul. Poor Petey, he's in the hole with Gordon G.G. Gebert now.....Not that that's bad...). But I don't wanna see a fake Ace and a fake Peter in KISS. Actually, Eric being Peter I can sorta live with, but Tommy being Ace? No way! He plays Ace's solos note for note (albeit without Ace's soul and with his super slow and wide vibrato that ****s with the timing). His songs on the last two records sound like Ace songs. Nobody can actually pull off the Spaceman. Ace is the Spaceman. There's only one Ace. There's a lot of Tommy's. I would like to see what he can do with his own unique character and the right to play like himself. Eric too. Watch any KISS live video from 1992-1995, Eric's drumming is superb. They're making him play more like Peter now, which sucks. It's almost a tribute band. The reason I want them to have their own characters is not just out of respect for Ace, Peter, and the past (As much of an Ace fanboy I am, he kinda deserves this slap in the face anyway. It's what he gets for screwing people over and treating his friends like **** and burning bridges), it's because they deserve it. Tommy will always be known as that guy who wore Ace's makeup. The Spaceman and Catman characters represent Ace and Peter, not Tommy and Eric. They deserve better than that. I emailed Tommy, and explained my feelings (without resorting to calling him names). KISS always puts big money and market share over class and integrity.

 

Personally, I wish they would take off the makeup altogether and bring Bruce back and do a theater/club tour. They definitely need to slow down a bit. The merchandising is getting a little overkill (yes, even for them. KISStory is repeating: it's like 1979 all over again), and their heavy touring is taking it's toll on certain things, especially Paul's voice. I would love to see them without all the smoke n' mirrors in a smaller place for a much cheaper price. And I miss Bruce (actually, more than Ace. I love Ace better solo nowadays anyway. He's the only member of KISS that can pull off a solo career, except for maybe Paul. Bruce's albums have been great, but he's a sideman). And to top it off, they can dedicate the whole thing to Eric Carr, and do a version of "Carr Jam 1981". Okay, I'm taking this too far.

 

I love Gene (I've turned over a new leaf) and his business skills and work ethic, but the man needs a reality check. KISS is far from being bang for the buck nowadays.

[Izzy]

Not that I am a big Kiss fan, but asking them to let the new guys wear new paint on their faces is like allowing the new star in Cabaret not to wear trampy black shorts and a bowler's hat.

 

These guys put on a show. The show is about Kiss, a band about make believe. Kiss had four characters. These are not people, these are characters, just like Sally Bowles in Cabaret. Sally Bowles was played by Liza Minelli, but even if Meryl Streep or Angelina Jolie played the character, it would still be required that they do the performance wearing the apropriate garb.

 

I would be dissapointed not to see the kitty and the spaceboy makeup. :huh:

[AlanH]

 

Personally, I wish they would take off the makeup altogether and bring Bruce back and do a theater/club tour. They definitely need to slow down a bit. The merchandising is getting a little overkill (yes, even for them. KISStory is repeating: it's like 1979 all over again), and their heavy touring is taking it's toll on certain things, especially Paul's voice. I would love to see them without all the smoke n' mirrors in a smaller place for a much cheaper price. And I miss Bruce (actually, more than Ace. I love Ace better solo nowadays anyway. He's the only member of KISS that can pull off a solo career, except for maybe Paul. Bruce's albums have been great, but he's a sideman). And to top it off, they can dedicate the whole thing to Eric Carr, and do a version of "Carr Jam 1981". Okay, I'm taking this too far.

 

 

I'd love to see the Revenge era lineup. No reason why they couldn't do that as a sideline- Bruce, Eric, Paul and Gene playing great hard rock songs in what was a time just when Grunge killed off all the good stuff and that album was about one of the last....

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfmrX_WlM2w

 

...and this Revenge track is definitely entertainment:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80PLMdnZcdo

[kaleb]

I'd love to see the Revenge era lineup. No reason why they couldn't do that as a sideline- Bruce, Eric, Paul and Gene playing great hard rock songs in what was a time just when Grunge killed off all the good stuff and that album was about one of the last....

]

 

...and this Revenge track is definitely entertainment:

 

 

 

As I said before, I miss Bruce. I don't mind Tommy (he does the job, plays his part, and his great to the fans: all are areas in which Ace tends to fail), but Bruce is the man. It's not a contest, but he owns every other KISS guitarist IMHO (Ace is Ace, Tommy's good, but nothing really special IMHO, Mark St. John couldn't not overdo it, and Vinnie, despite being a great songwriter, is not exactly my definition of a good shredder). I think Carnival Of Souls deserves a tour.

 

Gene recently did that Rock n' Roll All-stars tour, and he came out in full Revenge-ish regalia. Needless to say, he kicked ***.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnH12VLX2mk

 

Izzy, I never saw KISS as vaudeville entertainment. The idea that anyone can be behind those masks doesn't fly with me as a fan.

[kaleb]

Also, Gene should keep that wig. It looks way better than that steel-wool rug he usually has (when he's not in costume).

[Unionman]

Bruce Kulick is a great guitarist. Gene may put down Carnival of Souls but I like Bruce's playing on it.

[kaleb]

Bruce Kulick is a great guitarist. Gene may put down Carnival of Souls but I like Bruce's playing on it.

 

I don't think he gets the credit he deserves. Carnival Of Souls is a pretty good album IMHO. A little erratic and non-KISS (much like The Elder), but it's an unsung underdog of the KISS catalog. It's Bruce's album. It belongs to him (much like Ace and Dynasty: he made that album great). I love "Jungle". But I think KISS has finally learned that it's best to stick to your guns and play what comes out naturally (which they failed to do. For examples, the power pop of Unmasked, The Elder, the hair rock of Crazy Nights, and the Alice In Chains-ness of COS). Unfortunately, it's all nostalgia now. It's a straight tribute band any way you slice it. I think Tommy's songs are rip-offs of Ace songs (just like his whole shtick as far as his place in the band goes. Take his new Epi signature LP. They're calling it the "Spaceman" Les Paul. To me, that's very disrespectful towards Ace, the fans, and KISStory. And their latest bullshit about KISS being an empire beyond any members is insulting. Like Eddie Trunk said to Peter when he was on Eddie's show to plug his book, Dimebag Darrell was buried with an Ace tattoo on his chest. Do ya' think he walked around and said "I got a tattoo of The Spaceman!". No, he said "I have a tattoo of Ace ****in' Frehley!".). He plays Ace's licks note-for-note (albeit with his super slow/wide vibrato that ****s with the timing. He screws up the "Shock Me" solo), but without soul. Tommy's licks were better in Black n' Blue. Even so, he has never played anything that even remotely impressed me. He's mechanical. Ace has the soul and unique-ness. There's only one Ace (really, you'll never meet a guy like him). There's a lot of Tommy's. Nuff' said. I tend to rant endlessly about how I feel about KISS nowadays (over-hyped, over-merchandised, and full of BS. Just like 1979 all over again, only without the substance abuse, kiddie circus costumes, and conflict within band members. Damn, I'm worse than Trunk), so I'll stop there.

 

I still say Bruce is the best KISS guitarist ever (besides Ace, of course). Vinnie was a decent shredder, but he could never hold back and play in the pocket (and when he did, it wasn't great. As awesome as Vinnie-era KISS tunes are, the solos aren't as great. That's why Ace is great. He plays for the song and in the pocket without sounding dull and pedestrian.). Same for Mark, only he was way worse. Bruce is killer. It's too bad he didn't play on Creatures and stuff. Bob Kulick is awesome, too ("All American Man" and "Larger Than Life" have two of my favorite solos, ever, by anyone.).

 

Here's one of my favorite Bruce licks, and the only reason I would ever buy the Crazy Nights album. Gene may talk about how much he hates it, but I ****in' love it!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-sPXB2hUug

 

That intro, man. Bruce is unique, too. You can tell it's him. Eric lays down a heavy beat here (and you can hear his hearty backing vocals!).

 

It kinda reminds me of AC/DC's "Beatin' Around the Bush" only 80s-ified, complete with kickass shred.

[kaleb]

I got one thing to say about Tommy....

 

The Youtube KISS fanatics that actually like Tommy (he's a great road manager/video producer, I'll give him that) throw the fact that Tommy helped Ace relearn some of his parts (SOME. He had been doing tons of old KISS tunes on his solo tours) for the KISS reunion in the faces of us Rock Soldiers in every Ace/Tommy-related video. Well, here's what I have to say....

 

No wonder Ace played like **** during those years (1996-2002)!

[kaleb]

Thayer's work for Stanley & Simmons began by performing such tasks as painting Stanley's house and cleaning out Simmons' gutters. (from Wikipedia)

 

See, Tommy is Gene and Paul's personal butt boy. Peter even said so in his book.

 

One detail that hurts is that he even wears the blue penchant that Ace always wore. Next thing you know, he'll be wearing a **** ton of braclets and rings (which is a big part of Ace's live sound. The jewelry clinging against the strings/body, which happens because of Ace's closed palm style, is part of the sound) and he'll be quoting Ace ("I'm an imposter, Ace is back at his house", or "Actually, I'm a plumber". Incidentally, both of those are true for Tommy...). His songs sound like Ace songs. He acts and plays (tries to) like him onstage (yes, I realize that it's more or less Gene, Paul, and Doc McGhee than him or Eric). HE EVEN STUMBLES AND GIVES THE THUMBS UP SIGN EVERY TWO ****IN' SECOND! The man is a poser right down to his core. That's why I wrote a song called "Space Poser".

 

I feel sorry for Eric. He is the best musician in this version of the band, and the coolest guy. The funny thing is if it was somebody else wearing the Cat paint, he'd be right up there with Peter and Eddie Trunk. HE DESERVES BETTER!

[kaleb]

Nonetheless, Tommy still deserves his own persona. Despite the fact that he wears a little brown lipstick and I'm not a big fan of his playing, he does a lot for KISS (we wouldn't have the movie Detroit Rock City if it wasn't for him), and is nice to the fans. I hear that he gives back some too.

 

Despite the fact that I absolutely love Peter's book and consider it the best KISS book yet, he does have a huge chip on his shoulder and whines a lot. All the animosity towards Tommy and Eric AS PEOPLE (not them wearing the Spaceman and Cat paint) was uncalled for. This bitterness shows on his last CD One For All, which is terrible IMHO. I'm happy for Ace that he maned up and put the bitterness behind him.

 

Ah, who am I kidding. What KISS really needs to do is FINALLY THROW IN THE DAMN TOWEL! During the Farewell Tour, Paul kept saying that instead of being asked to leave, they wanted to be asked "Why are you leaving?". Well, we want you to leave now....I mean, Tommy and Eric are fine (Eric is the tops), and Gene can still do it, but Paul's done.

[Guest Farnsbarns]

You know what they say about talking to yourself.

[kaleb]

You know what they say about talking to yourself.

 

Don't discriminate me just because I'm a little wacko!

 

Seriously, it's my thread, and I'll post what ever I want (as long as it pertains to the subject matter, of course).

 

You hate KISS (and I'm perfectly fine with that, mind you), so don't fan the flames on a KISS-related thread like this. It's about as useful as Buxom on a Rush thread, or me on a U2 thread.

[Guest Farnsbarns]

Don't discriminate me just because I'm a little wacko!

 

Seriously, it's my thread, and I'll post what ever I want (as long as it pertains to the subject matter, of course).

 

You hate KISS (and I'm perfectly fine with that, mind you), so don't fan the flames on a KISS-related thread like this. It's about as useful as Buxom on a Rush thread, or me on a U2 thread.

 

Erm... Wow... I'll have what he's having.

 

Seriously, calm down. I didn't discriminate, I didn't tell you what to post, there are no flames and I didn't fan anything.

 

What have you been snorting?

 

;)

[pippy]

...I never saw KISS as vaudeville entertainment....

No offence intended, but that's possibly where you are going wrong, kaleb....

 

I first listened to KISS when a friend bought 'Alive!' back in '76 and even though I was just in my mid-teens I could still appreciate them as being the musical equivalent of a Pantomime Show.

 

And Izzy is spot-on about the 'Real' characters being essential ingredients if "The Panto Show Must Go On'.

Sure, Ace might be this or that and Thayer might be the other but for the KISS show to go ahead it needs The Spaceman and The Cat.

Otherwise (IMHO) it's no longer a KISS show.

 

Seeing KISS without those two characters would be like watching a version of 'Dumbo' without the flying elephant.

 

Then again, that was 37 years ago. Perhaps newer 'fans' don't share my idea of what, precisely, makes 'Kiss' 'KISS'...

 

P.

[kaleb]

No offence intended, but that's possibly where you are going wrong, kaleb....

 

I first listened to KISS when a friend bought 'Alive!' back in '76 and even though I was just in my mid-teens I could still appreciate them as being the musical equivalent of a Pantomime Show.

 

And Izzy is spot-on about the 'Real' characters being essential ingredients if "The Panto Show Must Go On'.

Sure, Ace might be this or that and Thayer might be the other but for the KISS show to go ahead it needs The Spaceman and The Cat.

Otherwise (IMHO) it's no longer a KISS show.

 

Seeing KISS without those two characters would be like watching a version of 'Dumbo' without the flying elephant.

 

Then again, that was 37 years ago. Perhaps newer 'fans' don't share my idea of what, precisely, makes 'Kiss' 'KISS'...

 

P.

 

Some younger fans today have no idea. KISS was never contrived. The characters were extentions of the original guys' personalities (Gene loves comics and horror, Paul's a true attention-grubbing acrobat, Peter liked cats and saw himself that way, and Ace told people he was from outer space even before Gene and Paul met). Ace is the Spaceman no matter what. Gene is the Demon no matter what (except for the 80s when he was totally lost and looked like a football player in a tutu), Paul DEFINITELY is the Starchild no matter what. And Peter will always be the Cat. Nuff' said.

 

KISS (the current version) says the band will continue forever without any original members. Maybe that's fine for people that have NO idea of what rock n' roll is and just want "Rock And Roll All Nite" and some pyro. I would NEVER, EVER go see a KISS show without Gene and Paul (the Tommy and Eric thing is preventing me from going now. If they had their own characters, I would go). I personally like KISS because of their music, and their larger-than-life apperance (which isn't related to the four characters) and sound. I don't need to see another Spaceman or Starchild. It will just be a tribute band that plays big places. Gene and Paul believe their own hype a little too much. They're too caught up in the comic book, doll and lunchbox selling ****. BUT, they still use Ace and Peter on 75% of the merchandise (although they're called by their characters on the doll boxes and stuff, not by their names like back in the 70s. Nobody wants to buy merch with Tommy and Eric's names). The KISS mini-golf thing in Vegas has Ace's signature three-pickup clownburst LP Custom design as a prop. Since 1977, the band has put merchandising over integrity, and I don't like that as a fan. I don't care for the merch (outside of T-shirts, hats, stickers, and the typical stuff every band does), never did. Lunchboxes, coffins, condoms? YUCK! It ruined the band in the late-70s and alienated their original fan base (it brought in the kiddies).

 

I see KISS as the fun, loud, pagan rock warriors of the night. Not a group of characters that play rock music and have their faces on everything known to man.

 

If they slowed it down a bit (which is needed cause' Paul can't keep up), took off the makeup, brought Bruce back and did a Revenge-type stage show, I'd love it. A lot of fans would love it. Sure, they wouldn't sell out big arenas and pack in the lightweights, as I like to call them, but the KISS Army would fill every theater, every concert hall. They look ridiculous now. Guys in their 60s wearing leotards and makeup? No, sorry.

 

My point? KISS should NOT go on without Gene and Paul. BUT, a newer band will carry on the torch. KISS will live on through younger bands. In the future, someone will be slapping on that whiteface backstage at some concert hall and they'll go on and be pagan rock warriors of the night just like it's 1976 all over again. But they'll have their own characters, their own name, and hopefully they won't do disco. History repeats itself.

[rct]

KISS was never contrived.

 

I'm sorry bro, I don't know you at all, and I usually read these things and admire your KI55 Patriotism to the death, but I read that and literally laughed out loud. I'm not sure if you are too young to remember those days or if you are just allowing your Super FanBoyness to cloud your perceptions, but man, you definitely need to return to the kitchen and smell the coffee.

 

rct

[AlanH]

I don't think he gets the credit he deserves. Carnival Of Souls is a pretty good album IMHO. A little erratic and non-KISS (much like The Elder), but it's an unsung underdog of the KISS catalog. It's Bruce's album. It belongs to him (much like Ace and Dynasty: he made that album great). I love "Jungle". But I think KISS has finally learned that it's best to stick to your guns and play what comes out naturally (which they failed to do. For examples, the power pop of Unmasked, The Elder, the hair rock of Crazy Nights, and the Alice In Chains-ness of COS). Unfortunately, it's all nostalgia now. It's a straight tribute band any way you slice it. I think Tommy's songs are rip-offs of Ace songs (just like his whole shtick as far as his place in the band goes. Take his new Epi signature LP. They're calling it the "Spaceman" Les Paul. To me, that's very disrespectful towards Ace, the fans, and KISStory. And their latest bullshit about KISS being an empire beyond any members is insulting. Like Eddie Trunk said to Peter when he was on Eddie's show to plug his book, Dimebag Darrell was buried with an Ace tattoo on his chest. Do ya' think he walked around and said "I got a tattoo of The Spaceman!". No, he said "I have a tattoo of Ace ****in' Frehley!".). He plays Ace's licks note-for-note (albeit with his super slow/wide vibrato that ****s with the timing. He screws up the "Shock Me" solo), but without soul. Tommy's licks were better in Black n' Blue. Even so, he has never played anything that even remotely impressed me. He's mechanical. Ace has the soul and unique-ness. There's only one Ace (really, you'll never meet a guy like him). There's a lot of Tommy's. Nuff' said. I tend to rant endlessly about how I feel about KISS nowadays (over-hyped, over-merchandised, and full of BS. Just like 1979 all over again, only without the substance abuse, kiddie circus costumes, and conflict within band members. Damn, I'm worse than Trunk), so I'll stop there.

 

I still say Bruce is the best KISS guitarist ever (besides Ace, of course). Vinnie was a decent shredder, but he could never hold back and play in the pocket (and when he did, it wasn't great. As awesome as Vinnie-era KISS tunes are, the solos aren't as great. That's why Ace is great. He plays for the song and in the pocket without sounding dull and pedestrian.). Same for Mark, only he was way worse. Bruce is killer. It's too bad he didn't play on Creatures and stuff. Bob Kulick is awesome, too ("All American Man" and "Larger Than Life" have two of my favorite solos, ever, by anyone.).

 

Here's one of my favorite Bruce licks, and the only reason I would ever buy the Crazy Nights album. Gene may talk about how much he hates it, but I ****in' love it!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-sPXB2hUug

 

That intro, man. Bruce is unique, too. You can tell it's him. Eric lays down a heavy beat here (and you can hear his hearty backing vocals!).

 

It kinda reminds me of AC/DC's "Beatin' Around the Bush" only 80s-ified, complete with kickass shred.

 

 

I got one thing to say about Tommy....

 

The Youtube KISS fanatics that actually like Tommy (he's a great road manager/video producer, I'll give him that) throw the fact that Tommy helped Ace relearn some of his parts (SOME. He had been doing tons of old KISS tunes on his solo tours) for the KISS reunion in the faces of us Rock Soldiers in every Ace/Tommy-related video. Well, here's what I have to say....

 

No wonder Ace played like **** during those years (1996-2002)!

 

 

Thayer's work for Stanley & Simmons began by performing such tasks as painting Stanley's house and cleaning out Simmons' gutters. (from Wikipedia)

 

See, Tommy is Gene and Paul's personal butt boy. Peter even said so in his book.

 

One detail that hurts is that he even wears the blue penchant that Ace always wore. Next thing you know, he'll be wearing a **** ton of braclets and rings (which is a big part of Ace's live sound. The jewelry clinging against the strings/body, which happens because of Ace's closed palm style, is part of the sound) and he'll be quoting Ace ("I'm an imposter, Ace is back at his house", or "Actually, I'm a plumber". Incidentally, both of those are true for Tommy...). His songs sound like Ace songs. He acts and plays (tries to) like him onstage (yes, I realize that it's more or less Gene, Paul, and Doc McGhee than him or Eric). HE EVEN STUMBLES AND GIVES THE THUMBS UP SIGN EVERY TWO ****IN' SECOND! The man is a poser right down to his core. That's why I wrote a song called "Space Poser".

 

I feel sorry for Eric. He is the best musician in this version of the band, and the coolest guy. The funny thing is if it was somebody else wearing the Cat paint, he'd be right up there with Peter and Eddie Trunk. HE DESERVES BETTER!

 

 

Nonetheless, Tommy still deserves his own persona. Despite the fact that he wears a little brown lipstick and I'm not a big fan of his playing, he does a lot for KISS (we wouldn't have the movie Detroit Rock City if it wasn't for him), and is nice to the fans. I hear that he gives back some too.

 

Despite the fact that I absolutely love Peter's book and consider it the best KISS book yet, he does have a huge chip on his shoulder and whines a lot. All the animosity towards Tommy and Eric AS PEOPLE (not them wearing the Spaceman and Cat paint) was uncalled for. This bitterness shows on his last CD One For All, which is terrible IMHO. I'm happy for Ace that he maned up and put the bitterness behind him.

 

Ah, who am I kidding. What KISS really needs to do is FINALLY THROW IN THE DAMN TOWEL! During the Farewell Tour, Paul kept saying that instead of being asked to leave, they wanted to be asked "Why are you leaving?". Well, we want you to leave now....I mean, Tommy and Eric are fine (Eric is the tops), and Gene can still do it, but Paul's done.

 

 

 

Yes, but what do you think about Tommy Thayer? :unsure:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[kaleb]

I'm sorry bro, I don't know you at all, and I usually read these things and admire your KI55 Patriotism to the death, but I read that and literally laughed out loud. I'm not sure if you are too young to remember those days or if you are just allowing your Super FanBoyness to cloud your perceptions, but man, you definitely need to return to the kitchen and smell the coffee.

 

rct

 

Ok, maybe I didn't fully understand what I was talking about.

 

They had the idea for KISS themselves. Sean Delaney choreographed all their moves and literally invented the KISS show (and never gets his credit from Simmons and Stanley). A few years later, manager Bill Aucoin (under the influence of cocaine) and their business people (notably Howard Marks and Carl Glickman, who ended up embbezzling money from them. Also under the influence of cocaine. Everyone in the whole KISS camp did blow except for Gene and Paul. That's why they made it out unharmed) paired up with Gene (no drugs to blame, damn!) and started the KISS merchandise craze of 1977-1980, which started with games and the famous Marvel comic with their blood in the ink (and would later manifest to dolls, lunchboxes, colorforms, the pinball machine, etc....Kiddie stuff....). The rest is KISStory.

 

They became a massive corporate entity. They dabbled in trends just for hit singles (crooning with "Beth", disco with "I Was Made For Loving You", pop with the Unmasked album, new romantic with The Elder, hair metal with most of their mid/late 80s stuff, grunge with Carnival Of Souls, and shitty anthems with Psycho Circus). And they keep feeding us (KISS fans) bullshit, just like politicians.

 

I'm just gonna come out and say it: I'm sick and tired of arguing with you people. My petition failed, too. All I can do is look forward to Ace's new album (considering this one won't come out 20 years from now).

 

You ****ers win.

[rct]

Ok, maybe I didn't fully understand what I was talking about.

 

They had the idea for KISS themselves. Sean Delaney choreographed all their moves and literally invented the KISS show (and never gets his credit from Simmons and Stanley). A few years later, manager Bill Aucoin (under the influence of cocaine) and their business people (notably Howard Marks and Carl Glickman, who ended up embbezzling money from them. Also under the influence of cocaine. Everyone in the whole KISS camp did blow except for Gene and Paul. That's why they made it out unharmed) paired up with Gene (no drugs to blame, damn!) and started the KISS merchandise craze of 1977-1980, which started with games and the famous Marvel comic with their blood in the ink (and would later manifest to dolls, lunchboxes, colorforms, the pinball machine, etc....Kiddie stuff....). The rest is KISStory.

 

They became a massive corporate entity. They dabbled in trends just for hit singles (crooning with "Beth", disco with "I Was Made For Loving You", pop with the Unmasked album, new romantic with The Elder, hair metal with most of their mid/late 80s stuff, grunge with Carnival Of Souls, and shitty anthems with Psycho Circus). And they keep feeding us (KISS fans) bullshit, just like politicians.

 

I'm just gonna come out and say it: I'm sick and tired of arguing with you people. My petition failed, too. All I can do is look forward to Ace's new album (considering this one won't come out 20 years from now).

 

You ****ers win.

 

There is no argument here. I remember the merchandise days well. They were pop product, they were blowing in the winds of pop product, on to the next thing that would help keep Casablanca out of bankruptcy court. They were pop product, and they willingly participated, there is no other way to do it. I understand your deep affection for them, I really do. But you have to call it what it is. They willingly participated in the merch, makeup/no makeup, disco, Beth, all of it. They sold more records than god has money to buy, eventually. But they were no more than a contrived, put together pop band that like Greg Brady, fit the suit. I admire your affection for them. Don't go away mad, keep carrying the torch for them, we all have to carry the torch for whomever. For me it's a bunch of thrown together dopers that barely got out of one record alive and are only known for Layla. I know what they were, but I still carry the torch for them. You too.

 

rct

[Izzy]

I'm just gonna come out and say it: I'm sick and tired of arguing with you people. My petition failed, too.

 

You ****ers win.

 

Harsh. No one argued with you, I don't think. We all admire the path KISS made for artists like Marylin Manson (at least I do).

 

I was obsseced with Madonna once (the Joan D'arc of our movement through the 80s and 90s) and I belonged to a Madonna fan club (one of two girls...the other thousand or so were men).

If today I wanted to get attention for a Madonna related petition, I'd go to fellow Madonna worshipers in a Madonna forum. Yes, I may mention it in a pop lover's thread...but I wouldn't expect it to get a lot of support. I would expect some degree of ridicule, too.

[kaleb]

There is no argument here. I remember the merchandise days well. They were pop product, they were blowing in the winds of pop product, on to the next thing that would help keep Casablanca out of bankruptcy court. They were pop product, and they willingly participated, there is no other way to do it. I understand your deep affection for them, I really do. But you have to call it what it is. They willingly participated in the merch, makeup/no makeup, disco, Beth, all of it. They sold more records than god has money to buy, eventually. But they were no more than a contrived, put together pop band that like Greg Brady, fit the suit. I admire your affection for them. Don't go away mad, keep carrying the torch for them, we all have to carry the torch for whomever. For me it's a bunch of thrown together dopers that barely got out of one record alive and are only known for Layla. I know what they were, but I still carry the torch for them. You too.

 

rct

 

Like I said, I think the toys with their faces on it ruined them, and prevented a lot of people from being fans. From inception until mid-1976, they were a dangerous, hard-working theatrical rock band. Destroyer changed that, both for the good AND for the bad. On the good side, the epicness that is "Detroit Rock City" and the whole larger-than-life feel of that album (thanks to Bob Ezrin) transformed them into the pagan rock warriors of the night that they were for about a year. "Beth" brought the crossover appeal, but it also cost them their street cred (while Destroyer is a great album, I don't think it needed the extra bells n' whistles. They work for Alice, but not for KISS). The merchandise made them a children's band (which, is totally ironic. The merch alone makes people that around back then to call them a kiddie band. Totally false. A large chunk of their tunes are about blowjobs for crying out loud!). Then, the solo albums made the egos fly. Then when they did Dynasty, they lost their way (although half the tunes on that album would be much heavier had they used a different producer. Ace's songs from that record sound way heavier and ballsier when he plays them live). During that period, the **** hit the fans (not only that, the **** really did hit their fans...). They've been contrived that way since 1976!

 

BUT, what I don't get is how the critics (especially Rolling Stone) will bash them and call them "fake", "just a show", "a sellout band", yet they laud over Madonna, Michael Jackson, and rap music. And whether or not people like to hear this, The Beatles were somewhat contrived and were a brand too. They had toys. They had a cartoon. I don't care for that stuff (the overkill non-clothing merch), but you can't deny it. This is why I call the people at Rolling Stone "hypocritics".

 

Every musician (music lover in general) has a hero, or a band he always sticks up for. I will always stand up for KISS despite the fact that I don't care for most of their merchandise gimmicks and I don't care for them putting Tommy and Eric in Ace and Peter's makeup. And Ace Frehley will always be my absolute guitar hero no matter what. When I hear him (as in his playing/singing, despite him not being a good singer at all. His signature laugh applies here too), a big smile comes across my face. Everyone has that with certain artists. He's that one player for me.

[kaleb]

And I will admit that I'm being bitter due to my petition failing.

 

For God's sake, my petition failed so bad it might as well be one of Peter Criss's solo albums.

[rct]

Petitions are overrated.

 

rct