Touched the tabu – Did the forbidden

[j45nick]

Somehow, I trust you Nick. You can scrape the glue off my braces, anytime.....

 

I'm still waiting to attack your late-40's SJ with my implements.......

[j45nick]

So, its 3am European time and still nothing .... was meant to come out a midnight, hmm ?

 

You missed it, Mark. The train left the station. At 3 am, Em7 is still wandering the streets in any case. He's a night owl.

[duluthdan]

EA look at post #63.

 

Aren't most braces symetrical? Daring move to insert unseen sharp objects into the bowels of a beast, and cut. Sandpaper seems a bit of innocent experimentation.

[zombywoof]

The best Gibsons I have ever played had braces with tapered ends that looked like they were whittled with a dull pen knife.

 

Not trying to be a jerk but unless you know what you are doing when it comes to re-voicing a guitar I think it is best to leave the bracing be. I have re-shaped bracing but only when starting with cheap bulky ladder braced Regals, Kays, and the like. They could not sound much worse than they did and were not worth a whole lot of scrtach so I figured I had nothing to lose. The results were generally neglible. But I did enjoy the experimentation.

[EuroAussie]

Holy crap, so he really did it !

 

Now this is VERY interesting in the context of my 69er which definitely could do with a bit of a shave..

 

Im staying tuned to this channel for sure

[ParlourMan]

...20 strokes with a piece of sandpaper is going to make bugger-all difference in the sectional shape or mass of a top brace. It might smooth the surface, depending on the coarseness of the grit chosen. After all, spruce is a pretty soft wood.

 

 

I'm with Nick, I wouldn't imagine 60 passes with sandpaper in a tight restricted space for your movement is not going to do an awful lot. But who knows, never done it myself, perhaps it will work. My best guess is that it would need more than a tickle with snapper though to get to an appreciable difference.

[fredcapo]

I was advised years ago, by a highly respected luthier in TN, that my 67 Hummingbird could benefit from an enlightened brace shaving. Those guitars at the time were being overbraced to minimize top failures from being overstrung. Gibson soon turned to the double x to further overbrace. But you have to know what you are doing...need the ability to "tap tune" the top...or as my wife often warns one wrong cut and you're done...

[blindboygrunt]

inexperienced voice here for sure , but wouldn't messing with bracing or internal structure change maybe run the risk of the top bellying or sinking ?

[Del Nilppeznaf]

Bleedin ek'

 

been away and missed the cliff hanger.. I have never even heard of folk shaving their own braces... you do learn lots here

 

and get some crazy notions to copy maybe..

 

joke..I would not go near the internals of my Bird.. but fair play to you Em7... I can see you have thought about this a fair bit..and did your research.. brave man.

 

I think 60 passes..that is what you did no?..would take a fair amount of wood away....?

 

I know the amount of saddle i sanded was significant..just be the residue left

 

I got the impression you always thought your HB TV was not quite what you wanted/expected ?.. from hearing others maybe..and looking for that mystical tone ?

 

I hope the changes you mention are there..and she is becoming more 'loose'... don't go any further though Em7... give her some time.

[j45nick]

Before I took on the modification of top bracing, I would want to study Gibson bracing design over the years--including tapering and scalloping--to understand what I was getting into. This is not really a place for random experimentation. Think of it like modifying the roof trusses in your house. If you have a solid engineering background, you know what you can get a way with, and what may lead to disaster, such as your roof collapsing under snow loads. (This is a real-world example, as I re-engineered some trusses in my house to raise the ceilings in certain areas. We don't worry about snow loading here, but we do worry about windstorm uplift.)

 

Same thing with the top braces in your guitar. These are your guitar's roof trusses, and you modify them at your peril unless you have a good understanding of their function.

 

Em7 is a professional musician, and his guitars are his tools. If he wants to modify his tools to look for different effects, he understands the risk he is undertaking, and probably accepts that his modifications may impact on future value. Professionals generally care more about the current functionality of their tools than their future value. As a case in point, look at the havoc Aaron Lewis wreaks on his guitars.

 

For me as an amateur musician, I wouldn't do it without a better understanding of what I was getting into.

[zombywoof]

Before I took on the modification of top bracing, I would want to study Gibson bracing design over the years--including tapering and scalloping--to understand what I was getting into. This is not really a place for random experimentation.

 

The thing is there is more to it that just thinning or shortening top braces (shortening back braces is usually not a big deal). Lighter top braces will allow for more top end flutter but there is a point where you can start jeopardizing structural stability. You can cut out scallops in a certain way to allow for more bottom end and so on.

[stein]

Okay, here we go – I sanded the braces of my Hummingbird True Vintage.

 

Now this was topic 1 -

 

Another just as important if not more important/interesting theme would be the ethics of all this. Have to assure you that I have no intentions whatsoever in the direction of selling this terrific Bird, but theoretically speaking we have a Q.

 

Is this deed to be considered a 'crime' and to which degree would I be 'forced'/would it be nessasary to tell about it in a sales situation. I underline again this is not the case here, but only bring it up as a subject for serious discussion.

 

All for now – I am hungry as a wolf and need a break. Will come back within an hour (after playing a bit). Look forward to your responses.

 

Best Thoughts -

Hmmm...good question. Have you destroyed or made not origonal? I'll type long for that.

 

Disclose when selling? I lean yes. I don't think it matters much, but I feel if I was buying, I would rather know than not know. If I am playing your guitar and decide I want to buy it, I'm buying anyway (not that it's for sale). I might think if a guy knew not much about guitars and was buying for same reasons (tone), not reason to tell. Also, I can see a case where disclosure would make it seemed highly modified or be taken wrong.

 

I pause to say, this isn't something I would think to be taken as something we should all do, that it will be an improvement for all. It's easy to read you got improvement, it was great, and thus a good "tweak". Internet stuff reads like that sometimes. This was obviously not the case with you.

 

As for my thoughts: I don't know how much was done to the braces-didn't see them before and after, so any judgements or opinions should be reserved. But, I don't think we can actually know if the improvement is the result of the surface being smoothed, or a change in mass. Or, even an unknown. What it seems to me, is that a little "tuning" is involved here, in that for whatever reason, what was done moved the guitar closer to your ideal. I might believe the improvement might be universal to anyone's taste. It COULD be, that this would only have the effect it did one THIS particular guitar, as it might be a particular sample that was just on the edge where the slight difference here made a difference.

[ParlourMan]

At the crux of it, It's a guitar significantly modded by an untrained owner, the mods may affect structural integrity (although probably wont), but, a non-reversable mod too without going to a helluva expense and hassle. I'd be pretty angry to buy such a guitar if it was not disclosed.

 

Above that, each to their own, if it works for Em7 good on him, but somebody some day is going to sell it.....

[BluesKing777]

So now the fuss has quietened a bit, I have a question posed by me, but representing the uninformed.....

 

 

We have read how in the early days, the guitar maker would glue braces and bits on the guitar back and fronts before the guitar was assembled - then attack these braces with a knife/planer to 'scallop' these braces until they reached some point where the guitar maker thought: "Aha! That will be nice!" (Not unlike Em7!)

 

Then he put the guitar together.

 

 

So move to modern Gibson, and here is my question - we assume the braces/struts are all cut on a CNC machine, but we read the Gibson spec sheets that say the braces are 'Hand-Scallopped". Well, it all sounds a bit loose - is there a standard template for this shaving, and why is it not done on the CNC machine when the pieces are made? How can the process be anything but inconsistent when it is done 'ad-lib'?

 

 

 

BluesKing777.

[j45nick]

So now the fuss has quietened a bit, I have a question posed by me, but representing the uninformed.....

 

So move to modern Gibson, and here is my question - we assume the braces/struts are all cut on a CNC machine, but we read the Gibson spec sheets that say the braces are 'Hand-Scallopped". Well, it all sounds a bit loose - is there a standard template for this shaving, and why is it not done on the CNC machine when the pieces are made? How can the process be anything but inconsistent when it is done 'ad-lib'?

 

BluesKing777.

 

 

Now there's a serious and legitimate question deserving a response from someone at Bozeman. I've wondered the same thing myself.

 

How much "hand" is there in the "hand scalloping"? Is it just at the brace ends to fit it to the kerfing, or what?

[E-minor7]

So now the fuss has quietened a bit, I have a question posed by me, but representing the uninformed.....

Good Q and we had the topic up before. According to that discussion, the term 'hand-scalloped' is in fact misleading. Don't know if human hands do a light sanding after the CNC treat, but it would be nice if so.

 

Btw. I have the feeling they tune the machines a grain from year to year/period to period – know nothing for sure as these procedures are held rather close to the body in Bozeman, but such eye/ear for detail could be the explanation the models sound different from wave to wave.

 

We have a member who knows much more on this – actually after visiting and asking the plant (representing members here as a part of the agenda, oh yes).

[BluesKing777]

So, for example, I wanted my 1959 Gibson LG3 with the non-scalloped' bracing changed to scalloped, and I then took it to my local luthier to do this operation, would he have a set of details or instructions/template to go by, or does he ,eek, just have a hack at it?

 

 

 

Sounds unlikely - is there a :

 

 

Secret Scalloper Society?

 

 

 

BluesKIng777.

 

 

(I have no intention of altering my LG3 - I love it as it is, but put the idea forward for an example.)

[ParlourMan]

Good question, here's hoping for an official word or a source in the know comment.

 

I once read on the AGF of a builder who's warranty was 7 years due to the lightness of the build and was almost marketed as having a "won't last a lifetime... but what a sound" type of pitch. Seemed odd to me at the time someone would buy a guitar of that cost which had a relatively short lifespan before its expected implosion. I'll report back if I can find the name again.

[E-minor7]

Sounds unlikely - is there a :

 

 

Secret Scalloper Society?

 

 

There is expertise to be found, but as we can imagine, this isn't an exact science. We are talking the skeleton some (including me) would even say soul of the guitar.

Terrain vague of the first, highest, , , , and deepest order.

 

Limitless intriguing.

[retrorod]

So, for example, I wanted my 1959 Gibson LG3 with the non-scalloped' bracing changed to scalloped, and I then took it to my local luthier to do this operation, would he have a set of details or instructions/template to go by, or does he ,eek, just have a hack at it?

 

 

 

Sounds unlikely - is there a :

 

 

Secret Scalloper Society?

 

 

 

BluesKIng777.

 

 

(I have no intention of altering my LG3 - I love it as it is, but put the idea forward for an example.)

 

Yes indeed! The ol' SSS. Beware of the initiation ritual in which you MUST touch your Tabu...... and THEN do the dirty.:blink:

[j45nick]

So, for example, I wanted my 1959 Gibson LG3 with the non-scalloped' bracing changed to scalloped, and I then took it to my local luthier to do this operation, would he have a set of details or instructions/template to go by, or does he ,eek, just have a hack at it?

 

BluesKIng777.

 

(I have no intention of altering my LG3 - I love it as it is, but put the idea forward for an example.)

 

 

I think the cross-sectional shape of the late-50's (and later) top braces is quite different from that of earlier models, so creating the same scalloping profile would not necessarily yield the same results, and could be a structural compromise.

 

In other words, don't try this at home.

 

I have three Gibson x-braced flat tops from different eras, and the top bracing shape is significantly different on each one, even though the bracing layout in plan view is similar.

[stein]

I think there are some darned good questions to come of this.

 

What we know: A man who has experience with 'Birds, who has an 'idea' of what they should sound like.

he has altered the braces.

It's more "Bird-like" to his ears.

 

We might guess it sounds better.

 

What we don't know: What were the braces to begin with.

How many variations exist (consistancy) in current construction.

How many variations exist at different times of manufacture.

[fredcapo]

...not really rocket science but almost...when you build a guitar, the braces are attached before the top is attached to the body, so you tap tune the top during the process. A trained ear will know then the bracing is right. In a production environment, whatever braces have been "designed" for that particular model/price-point are attached. The braces aren't always the optimum, so there is room to tweak.

[E-minor7]

I thank you all for the responses and did find many good ones that deserved individual answers from here. Can't deal with such a task right now, but let me confirm what's already been said. It seems to me the sound has changed for the fuller/freer – thus for fingerpicking and lyrical playing, better. This wasn't a carpenters work, it was me doin' a round of serious sanding. Not 60, but 60 in raid 1 – then a number in the second go, which adds up to circa 110 plus some fine adjusting on the way. So tuning might be the better word – not voice-change. I wouldn't dare that at all, , , and it wouldn't be my intention as I like the voice of the flyer. What I'm after is the looser feel that provides at the same time stronger and mellower bass and conjures larger drops of honey – think I got it, , , even after the dust has cleared. And speaking of dust maybe this could indicate how much wood was removed. Cause this isn't about numbers of brushes, it's about material (mass is too massive an expression here). Every time I took the sandpaper out I emptied it in an ashtray and left twice the of dose pepper you would pour on an eggsandwich – let's say 6 times. Apart from that I went out on the stairs and blew 2 and a half maybe 3 clouds of dust out of the sound-hole. And that was that. Definitely wouldn't go further as I like the sound and want to see what happens from here.

 

This could illustrate the overall process -

 

A is when I got it

 

B where we were on the 18 months stone

 

C is where we're headed and feel closer to after the raid .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

 

.

 

. 964 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

[j45nick]

...not really rocket science but almost...when you build a guitar, the braces are attached before the top is attached to the body, so you tap tune the top during the process. A trained ear will know then the bracing is right. In a production environment, whatever braces have been "designed" for that particular model/price-point are attached. The braces aren't always the optimum, so there is room to tweak.

 

Surely it is easier to tap-tune before the top is installed? How can you guess how to alter the brace shape once the top is glued on the body? Wouldn't it essentially be a guess--in the best case, an educated guess?