michaeljohnr Posted January 8, 2013 Posted January 8, 2013 I called Gibson today to ask about the stock bridge pins they use as well as to find out how they drill their bridges. I was told by the tech. that their stock taper (the "golf ball") pin is 1.9° and that they drill the bridge holes straight, no taper. He also told me that I could put in 3° or 5° pins with no problems. If that's true, fitting a 3° or a 5° pin into that hole is a very bad thing. It'll just increase the space around the pin even more, no? I guess the question is: Why such an odd original taper specification when 3° or 5° is sort of the industry standard?
j45nick Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 I guess the question is: Why such an odd original taper specification when 3° or 5° is sort of the industry standard? Because it's Gibson. Typically, you don't use the terms "Gibson" and "industry standard" in the same sentence. Provided the pin holds the ball end of the string properly against the bridge plate, I'm not sure the taper matters that much. At least that's what pin-makers tell me. The 1.9 degree pin taper is actually a better fit for an untapered pin hole than a 3 or 5 degree tapered pin would be, so Gibson may be the smart ones here. If you ream the existing straight holes to a 3 or 5 degree taper, by definition you're going to need to have larger, custom pins made to fit properly, unless you fill the pin holes and re-drill them completely, so that they are the old size at the top, but smaller at the bottom. Remember that the bottom half of the pin--the smallest part--just sticks into space, doing nothing. The ball end fetches against the pin about halfway up the shank. You've got just over 1/4" of bridge thickness, 1/8" of top, and 1/8" of bridge plate, and pins with a shank about 1" long. When I change strings, I always check the ball-end seating using a mirror. Never had a problem, except on vintage guitars with excess bridge plate wear. An extra 10 seconds of inspection at every string change prevents long-term problems.
michaeljohnr Posted January 9, 2013 Author Posted January 9, 2013 Because it's Gibson. Typically, you don't use the terms "Gibson" and "industry standard" in the same sentence. Provided the pin holds the ball end of the string properly against the bridge plate, I'm not sure the taper matters that much. At least that's what pin-makers tell me. The 1.9 degree pin taper is actually a better fit for an untapered pin hole than a 3 or 5 degree tapered pin would be, so Gibson may be the smart ones here. If you ream the existing straight holes to a 3 or 5 degree taper, by definition you're going to need to have larger, custom pins made to fit properly, unless you fill the pin holes and re-drill them completely, so that they are the old size at the top, but smaller at the bottom. Remember that the bottom half of the pin--the smallest part--just sticks into space, doing nothing. The ball end fetches against the pin about halfway up the shank. You've got just over 1/4" of bridge thickness, 1/8" of top, and 1/8" of bridge plate, and pins with a shank about 1" long. When I change strings, I always check the ball-end seating using a mirror. Never had a problem, except on vintage guitars with excess bridge plate wear. An extra 10 seconds of inspection at every string change prevents long-term problems. Thanks for the reply. I grabbed a quick snapshot of the inside of my J45. The bridge is ramped and slotted, and the pins are turned so that the full surface of each side touches the front and back. This makes more sense to me than spinning the slot to the rear. The pins are the stock pins. You can see a lot of space around the hole where the pins do not make contact with the plate. Look at the b string (2nd from left) and see how the ball pushes the pin backward? If the pin filled the hole, it would just hold the ball there and not pivot because of the ball. Not a problem now, and the string balls are seated correctly, except the high e on the right which is turned 90°, but will be corrected after this post. :) Still 1.9°? Weird.
j45nick Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 Thanks for the reply. I grabbed a quick snapshot of the inside of my J45. The bridge is ramped and slotted, and the pins are turned so that the full surface of each side touches the front and back. This makes more sense to me than spinning the slot to the rear. The pins are the stock pins. You can see a lot of space around the hole where the pins do not make contact with the plate. Look at the b string (2nd from left) and see how the ball pushes the pin backward? If the pin filled the hole, it would just hold the ball there and not pivot because of the ball. Not a problem now, and the string balls are seated correctly, except the high e on the right which is turned 90°, but will be corrected after this post. :) Still 1.9°? Weird. You can control the orientation of the ball end under the bridge plate by the way you make the bend in the string at the end of the double winding before you insert the string into the pin hole.
michaeljohnr Posted January 9, 2013 Author Posted January 9, 2013 You can control the orientation of the ball end under the bridge plate by the way you make the bend in the string at the end of the double winding before you insert the string into the pin hole. Can I do that by making the bend in line with the groove in the ball?
j45nick Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 Can I do that by making the bend in line with the groove in the ball? Yes. Or 90 degrees to that, depending on how you want the ball-end to sit. Don't ask me which is better. I don't know.
michaeljohnr Posted January 9, 2013 Author Posted January 9, 2013 Yes. Or 90 degrees to that, depending on how you want the ball-end to sit. Don't ask me which is better. I don't know. Thanks!
blindboygrunt Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 my pins wouldnt fit in the holes with the string unless i put the slot on the same side as the string , as in pointing at the fretboard ....
michaeljohnr Posted January 9, 2013 Author Posted January 9, 2013 my pins wouldnt fit in the holes with the string unless i put the slot on the same side as the string , as in pointing at the fretboard .... My bridge is slotted.
blindboygrunt Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 My bridge is slotted. did you add slots ? or do some models come slotted ?
j45nick Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 did you add slots ? or do some models come slotted ? I'm pretty sure he slots his bridges, as this topic has come up before.
michaeljohnr Posted January 9, 2013 Author Posted January 9, 2013 did you add slots ? or do some models come slotted ? I had the bridge slotted by request from the dealer (Music Villa in Bozeman) before they sent it to me. They also did a bone nut and new saddle as well.
blindboygrunt Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 why request slotting of a bridge as part of the set up ? forgive my ignorance ... just wondered why you would ask for that ? seems to be giving you trouble now ?
michaeljohnr Posted January 12, 2013 Author Posted January 12, 2013 why request slotting of a bridge as part of the set up ? forgive my ignorance ... just wondered why you would ask for that ? seems to be giving you trouble now ? Because I prefer non-slotted pins. In my opinion it's a better option. People's opinions vary though, and I respect everyone's personal take on this. I'm not arguing my opinion is better, it's just what I prefer on my instruments. I did receive a set of pins from Bob C. that seemed to solve the issue. A before and after photo is below. The top image is the stock pins, rotated so the slots are away from the bridge slot. The lower image is of Bob C's pins. Note the difference of fit. Bob's pins fit slightly better and fit perfectly from the top. The lower photo is my Martin, also slotted with non-slotted pins. Just to show the pin to bridge plate fit if anyone is interested. I'm a geek for this kind of thing and find these types of photos really interesting.
duluthdan Posted January 12, 2013 Posted January 12, 2013 MJ: I have five decent guitars. Three are slotted, two are not. I can guaranty you that the ball ends of my strings are not as orderly as yours. Two that are slotted came to me this way, one I ordered done that way. I can't help but note this discussion really drills down to details I rarely pay attention to. I am reminded of the guy answering a question on a survey: "Do you smoke after sex?" "I dunno, I've never looked."
michaeljohnr Posted January 12, 2013 Author Posted January 12, 2013 MJ: I have five decent guitars. Three are slotted, two are not. I can guaranty you that the ball ends of my strings are not as orderly as yours. Two that are slotted came to me this way, one I ordered done that way. I can't help but note this discussion really drills down to details I rarely pay attention to. I am reminded of the guy answering a question on a survey: "Do you smoke after sex?" "I dunno, I've never looked." All I do is bend the winding to about 90° before I put the string into the slot and push it down with the pin, then give a gentle tug up. They always end up like this. Maybe I'm the ball whisperer. Wait, what?
j45nick Posted January 12, 2013 Posted January 12, 2013 All I do is bend the winding to about 90° before I put the string into the slot and push it down with the pin, then give a gentle tug up. They always end up like this. You're welcome!
michaeljohnr Posted January 12, 2013 Author Posted January 12, 2013 You're welcome! I knew I got that good advice somewhere.
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