Is gibson going down hill?

[turtle]

Ok, I love gibsons as much as all of us on this forum. I recently went to guitar center because they had a used es335 I've been gassing over. While I was there the first thing I noticed was this burnt toast looking les paul. It had to be a studio of some sort. Anyhow the logo on the headstock was that gold painted silkscreen whatever logo. It looked like they used a stencil and sprayed it on and left residue of the gold around this oversized gibson logo. The serial number was off a bit in terms of center and down covered by the tuner a bit. The plastic pickup selector poker chip looked cheap and like a 1 dollar part off a very cheap guitar. Then noticed the plastic all was the same on the whole guitar. This is a brand new guitar btw. Now I got the whole price point thing ect. When I was growing up there were 3 choices - studio standard custom. All great well built instruments. Even the new gibson higher end models just seemed mehh at the store. Played about 4 of em while I was there. Very disappointed. Meanwhile... My friend gets a new midtown bass(3rd times a charm after returning 2). Electronics sloppy, the headstock pegs are off on one side- meaning they're closer to the edge on one side, serial # off center, ect ect. He decided to keep it as its the BEST one he's gotten thus far. . First had the baked Alaskan finger board that he didn't want and the second had a scratch and some other issues. Damn. Just really disappointing to me. That's all. Btw my friends paying a luthier today to rewire the bass as the volume cuts out when u turn it below 8 you get no volume. It plays great otherwise. But 1300 bass and he had to rewire it! He owns 12 vintage and other fender basses and this is his first or should i say 3rd ....... Really gibson?

[cjsinla]

1361633041[/url]' post='1333474']

Ok, I love gibsons as much as all of us on this forum. I recently went to guitar center because they had a used es335 I've been gassing over. While I was there the first thing I noticed was this burnt toast looking les paul. It had to be a studio of some sort. Anyhow the logo on the headstock was that gold painted silkscreen whatever logo. It looked like they used a stencil and sprayed it on and left residue of the gold around this oversized gibson logo. The serial number was off a bit in terms of center and down covered by the tuner a bit. The plastic pickup selector poker chip looked cheap and like a 1 dollar part off a very cheap guitar. Then noticed the plastic all was the same on the whole guitar. This is a brand new guitar btw. Now I got the whole price point thing ect. When I was growing up there were 3 choices - studio standard custom. All great well built instruments. Even the new gibson higher end models just seemed mehh at the store. Played about 4 of em while I was there. Very disappointed. Meanwhile... My friend gets a new midtown bass(3rd times a charm after returning 2). Electronics sloppy, the headstock pegs are off on one side- meaning they're closer to the edge on one side, serial # off center, ect ect. He decided to keep it as its the BEST one he's gotten thus far. . First had the baked Alaskan finger board that he didn't want and the second had a scratch and some other issues. Damn. Just really disappointing to me. That's all. Btw my friends paying a luthier today to rewire the bass as the volume cuts out when u turn it below 8 you get no volume. It plays great otherwise. But 1300 bass and he had to rewire it! He owns 12 vintage and other fender basses and this is his first or should i say 3rd ....... Really gibson?

 

I figure that I get what I pay for. I've bought four in the last year after not buying any since the 80's. the most expensive one showed the most care and quality. But, even the cheap ones looked great and played great. Overall, I've been very pleased with the products I've been getting. Remember, even in the 80s, the Gibsons were always the most expensive. Even the Fender vintage line is now about $2000 at the dealers. The nicest Gibson guitars in the 80s were going for around $750-$800 at the dealers. That probably translates to about $2500 today.

[blueslespaultone]

Just like anything else, results of mass production and lack of or poor QA. I went through 3 les paul traditionals third was a winner, I didn't settle for the las one, it was just an awesome instrument. To be fair the 1st one was a good top and it was awesome too, I was perfectly happy until I noticed what seem to be a crack on the base of the neck,

On this

Then I got this one

This was a beautiful instrument, except for the fretboard work, the board had a 1mm wide slash that ran down several frets, would interfere with bends or vibrato, plus rough as bark.

Very hard to tell but in your hands you felt it, and the neck pickup was muddy and boomy. That went back and got this

Just perfect all around. The feel, finish, tone just what a les paul should be.

Going downhill, I don't agree. A few fell through the cracks, possibly luthier in training, luthier with Monday blues or something.

[Guest Farnsbarns]

Ok, I love gibsons as much as all of us on this forum. I recently went to guitar center because they had a used es335 I've been gassing over. While I was there the first thing I noticed was this burnt toast looking les paul. It had to be a studio of some sort. Anyhow the logo on the headstock was that gold painted silkscreen whatever logo. It looked like they used a stencil and sprayed it on and left residue of the gold around this oversized gibson logo. The serial number was off a bit in terms of center and down covered by the tuner a bit. The plastic pickup selector poker chip looked cheap and like a 1 dollar part off a very cheap guitar. Then noticed the plastic all was the same on the whole guitar. This is a brand new guitar btw. Now I got the whole price point thing ect. When I was growing up there were 3 choices - studio standard custom. All great well built instruments. Even the new gibson higher end models just seemed mehh at the store. Played about 4 of em while I was there. Very disappointed. Meanwhile... My friend gets a new midtown bass(3rd times a charm after returning 2). Electronics sloppy, the headstock pegs are off on one side- meaning they're closer to the edge on one side, serial # off center, ect ect. He decided to keep it as its the BEST one he's gotten thus far. . First had the baked Alaskan finger board that he didn't want and the second had a scratch and some other issues. Damn. Just really disappointing to me. That's all. Btw my friends paying a luthier today to rewire the bass as the volume cuts out when u turn it below 8 you get no volume. It plays great otherwise. But 1300 bass and he had to rewire it! He owns 12 vintage and other fender basses and this is his first or should i say 3rd ....... Really gibson?

 

If a guitar is scratched, dented or the wrong spec, your issue is with the dealer. Cheap looking plastic parts is another matter but they have always been that way. The rewiring thing, well it sounds like a dirty pot to me, again, that's down to the dealer. The tech also has some answering to do, it can only be the pot, why rewire it? A replacement pot is under a tenner, and that's if it actually needs replacing, and is he doing this under warranty or paying for it?

[bobouz]

My last two purchases were an ES-330 VOS,

and an LP Special w/P90s.

Pricewise, different ends of the spectrum.

 

On the third 330 tried, I found a truly stellar instrument.

Beautiful tone, playability, and construction.

 

The LP Special was ordered online. It was perfect out of the box,

representing a huge value for a very low sale price.

 

I don't think they're going down hill.

I just think their build quality & QC is spotty,

as it seemingly always has been.

[stein]

I am more and more boggled at what a lot of poeple call "QC", and what judges a guitar as good or bad...where it has all gone.

 

This isn't directed on any poster on this thread. But a perspective here on what one should expect when dealing with "QC" or a musical instrument.

 

For one, you get what you pay for. A 500 dollar guitar is NOT a 1500 dollar guitar. And if you want that last inches of perfection and quality, there is a cost associated with that in that the efforts and time spent to make it isn't going to come without some kind of price. If you DO want the best, you are going to have to pay someone to make it for you.

 

I am also surprise how many leave the dealers off the hook and blame Gibby. Gibson does NOT "sell" to the public, they sell to dealers and dealers sell to the public. If there is something not right, your beef is with the dealer. Speaking of getting your money's worth, you paid the dealer. Expect them to do what you paid them for.

 

I am also surprised how many JUDGE a Gibson on what is supposed to be an instrument or a tool for playing music. The quality and cost of making them is meant to be for how well it works in that capacity. It isn't about a flawless finish or a spec or dent or a bad set up when new. If those are the measuring sticks, then maybe a Gibson is a waste of money. But here again, if you want both a HIGH quality instrument made to be used, AND a perfect instrument without what anyone can call a blemish, expect a high cost in not only making it, but insuring it stays that way until you get it.

 

In all, don't expect a guitar out of the box to be set up perfectly when it hasn't been out of the box to be set up. Don't expect a 800 dollar guitar to have as much care as a 2000 guitar because it say "Gibson". Don't expect a guitar you buy to be untouched and unscratched when you yourself are touching and playing guitars and sending them back.

 

Most of all, don't call something a "QC" issue if you don't have an interest or knowledge on what makes a guitar good or bad.

[charlie brown]

Gibson Quality going "downhill?" If anything, they're much more consistent, overall...in quality!

Sure, there are a few rougher examples, now and again. But, considering the amount of guitars they

build, these days, compared to the 50's and 60's, I'd say they were a lot better, overall. That era,

and every other one, since, has always had it's share of "dogs!" So have all the other brands.

 

The other issues, have been addressed, already, so I won't go back over them. ALL the the Gibson guitars

that "I" have purchase, over the last 12 years, have been "stunning!" Perfect...NO. "Perfect," is a myth.

Way beyond "acceptable?" Absolutely...even astoundingly so, at times. But, if you actually "Play"

your guitars, they'll get some "imperfections," sooner or later, anyway. Just adds to the "mojo!"

Have I ever paid for a guitar, that was less than what should have been "expected?" Rarely...but in the

rare instances, that has happened, it was because of the overall quality of the guitar itself...not the

"finish flaw," or loose part, etc. And, in fact, the only time that happened (that I can remember)...my

dealer fixed everything, including the finish flaw, and even discounted the price a bit, in the process.

 

As has been stated, earlier...the Dealer IS the "stop gap," between what you pay your money for,

and what comes out of the factory. IF, they're doing their job, correctly, you should have a minimum

of "issues," with any guitar, Gibson or otherwise. If they're not doing a proper job...Find a Different

Dealer, who will!

 

CB

[bobouz]

I am more and more boggled at what a lot of poeple call "QC", and what judges a guitar as good or bad...where it has all gone.

Definitions of acceptable QC may not all look the same, but what I'm referring to is significant variations in build quality when looking at multiple samples of the same model (regardless of price point), and problems that should be caught & corrected by the factory.

 

Variations in tone are to be expected. But issues that effect playability are another matter, such as sloppy fret work, a neck that cannot be set for proper relief, a twisted neck, a neck set that limits adjustment of a TOM bridge, etc.

 

I'd also consider obvious finish flaws a QC issue, such as anything that once upon a time would have been marked as a factory second and discounted. Gibson no longer marks anything as a factory second.

[Bongoscot]

I have heard similar complaints before but I guess I must be lucky. In the past year I have bought 2 Gibson USA guitars at each end of the price spectrum. A new 2010 Melody Maker for 300 bucks and a 2012 Les Paul Standard shipped across the country from Wildwood guitars and I can find nothing to complain about in either. The Melody Maker is a great playing, feeling, and sounding guitar and represents the best value I have ever gotten from a guitar, and the LP standard is just stunning to me in every way. Sometimes I open the case just to look at it, like art. I just love it. I am sorry to hear about people having such quality issues with their Gibson's, but I am happy to say that I have had none of those issues myself. Maybe the problem is within Guitar Center stores themselves. I have been quite unimpressed with the Guitar center around here which is why I went through Wildwood. I can't comment on the quality of the instruments in my local GC because I usually get frustrated with the poor customer service and leave before ever spending much time with any of their stuff.

[badbluesplayer]

I think they were having more problems a year or two ago. I just get the feeling that they really got thrown for a loop with the wood thing but they're back on track.

 

I like what Gibson's doing. They're back to where they need to be.

 

[BlueSky]

To answer your question... No! Gibson is not going down hill. Many musical instrument dealers are though. As others have stated, dealers are the ones allowing the instruments to be banged up. They are also supposed to inspect the instruments before they sell them. Most do not. I think what you are seeing is not a rise in shoddy workmanship by Gibson, but a complete collapse of the dealer. They should be inspecting each instrument before they send it out to the floor or to the customer. Remember, guitars are shipped to the dealer before being sold. A lot can happen during the shipping process. In the case of internet dealers, it just makes sense for a dealer to open the box and inspect the instrument before shipping it to a customer. Many don't.

 

Local "brick & mortar" shops (at least most of the ones I've been to lately) allow unfettered access to the instruments. Consequently, they are going to get dinged up. When I was young, our local music shop kept the guitars out of reach. If you wanted to try one, a salesman handed it to you and stayed with you while you tried it. Fine instruments no longer get the respect they deserve at the dealership. That's not Gibson's fault.

 

If an instrument gets to the dealership with obvious defects, the dealer should send it back to the manufacturer instead of trying to sell it to some unwitting customer. If the dealer doesn't send it back, how can the manufacturer know that there is a problem? I've been buying instruments for over 4 decades. I've bought a lot of guitars, basses and amps during that time (new, used, vintage, etc...). I've bought 4 Gibsons in the past 6 months. In my opinion, Gibson's quality is getting better, not worse. The same is true of Fender.

[BigKahune]

I think they were having more problems a year or two ago. I just get the feeling that they really got thrown for a loop with the wood thing but they're back on track.

 

I like what Gibson's doing. They're back to where they need to be.

 

 

+1

 

In November 2009 Gibson got hit with the first wood raid. In May of 2010 Nashville got walloped by the flood and had a lot of damage (Grand Ole Opry House received a lot of damage and hundreds of valuable instruments were damaged and/or ruined). The Gibson factory received a lot of damage. It took them months to get back up and running at a normal pace. And then they had to increase production to catch up on orders. In August of 2011 Gibson was hit with a 2nd wood raid in which the factories were shut down and more property/records were confiscated.

 

That's 3 years in a row - the situation caused production changes and there was a noticeable uptick in QC problems in 2010 & 2011. But I agree with BBP - Gibson got back on track in 2012 and I think they're doing fine.

 

 

.

[BlueSky]

Gibson Quality going "downhill?" If anything, they're much more consistent, overall... <snip>

 

As has been stated, earlier...the Dealer IS the "stop gap," between what you pay your money for,

and what comes out of the factory. IF, they're doing their job, correctly, you should have a minimum

of "issues," with any guitar, Gibson or otherwise. If they're not doing a proper job...Find a Different

Dealer, who will!

 

CB

 

Great post! I agree completely.

[TomV]

Whenever I see Gibson bashing (and I don´t mean this thread, ´cos it isn´t the case)

I usually step in and defend "our" brand :) understandably, I´ve got 10 or so..

 

I laugh about nitpicking with magnifying glass - hey, I don´t mind my guitars made by humans not robots,

and "perfection" takes second seat to feel and sound to me.

 

That said - the best modern Gibsons (electrics) were IMHO made in late 80s/early 90s. When Henry took over, they outdid themselves to regain lost respect and customers - and no bad guitar left the factory, if it could be repaired it was done, otherwise it was destroyed.

 

All the guitars I played from that era were just excellent!

I´ve kept 2 Les Pauls, 92 Standard and 93 ebony fb Studio - these are no worse than current Historics, well at least as I can compare to my 2007 and 2008 RI´s..

After the Centennial 1994 the guitars are not that stellar anymore however - maybe the best wood was used up by then ? The then new (1993) Custom Shop took the best stuff from Gibson USA production anyway..

And later on came chambering.. Fijian mahogany ... and Richlite ... or Customs with rosewood FBs looking like chinese fakes..

 

I understand Gibson was having some really hard times recently - but calling every other cheap model "Custom" degrades the brand more IMO than some tiny scrape marks on fretboard here and there.

That is what I´d call going down the hill.

[blueslespaultone]

Funny you mention guitars made by humans not robots.my traditional was made mostly with a cnc machine, body shape and route and neck shape and routes, glued and finished by humans then setup by Plek machine.

But that's cool.

But I'll tell you something, if I pay 600 and up, I am pretty nit picky.

Scratches, dents, blemishes in the finish don't bother me. If it affects vibrato or bends, or playability, and tone.

Then the guitars going back.

[charlie brown]

Hey...I love my "Classic Custom!"

 

 

Does that look like a "Chinese fake," to you??!

 

The '50's and '60's (Coveted) Gibson's were a lot more "rare" in terms of production numbers!

That's the heart and soul of it. The materials "magic wood," and such, WERE more plentiful,

but, there were "bricks" or "dogs," even then..."magic wood," or not! The "Robot" CNC machines

make our guitars more consistant, in quality, and keep the labor costs down, as well. If all

Gibson, and other guitars were made with 50's technology, strictly, and the higher degree of

hand work, they would be back to the same output...and, at probably 5 times (or more) the price,

too.

 

I hate the higher prices, but...I hate the high price of bar soap, now, too! If that

and food prices, keep going up, there won't BE any money, for "guitars"...Gibson, or otherwise.

 

Gibson is doing "Just Fine!" And, as long as the "Government" will leave them, and other reputable

American companies, alone...let them DO, what they do best, they'll continue to make great guitars,

or "whatever," products their companies make.

 

CB

[stein]

Funny you mention guitars made by humans not robots.my traditional was made mostly with a cnc machine, body shape and route and neck shape and routes, glued and finished by humans then setup by Plek machine.

But that's cool.

But I'll tell you something, if I pay 600 and up, I am pretty nit picky.

Scratches, dents, blemishes in the finish don't bother me. If it affects vibrato or bends, or playability, and tone.

Then the guitars going back.

Makes perfect sense to me.

 

I think the more you spend, the more "picky" a guy is going to be. When it comes to an instrument that is something that helps or hinders your playing, being nit-picky about certain things, or paying attention to certain aspects relate directly to how much it's worth in dollars compared to what you will get out of it when you use it.

 

Here's something of a point though: If we are going to argue or discuss back and forth about what makes a guitar "good" or not, I would think the subjects and complaints might be "it doesn't work well for vibrato", or "playability sucks", or "sounds like____". I don't mean if we agree or not, but rather, most dicussions or complaints I read about regarding "QC", what are they about?

 

I might have my own criteria. While I agree that a badly cut nut is something I don't accept, I can tell you the last thing I am going to judge a guitar on is a 15 dollar part that can easily be replaced. I wouldn't judge a whole guitar based on something so easily corrected. And that becomes MORE true when spending more, not less true. Mainly, because the more I might spend, the more stringent I'm going to be on what the guitar is capable of. I would think the discussion might go toward the rest of the guitar, like WHY a guitar is worth getting with a bad nut over 200 dollar junk that has a good nut. Rarely does a discussion on quality get to that point.

 

I am asking the question here, if one isn't able to tell a bad nut, or know how to fix it or set up a guitar, OR know to have it corrected, what are you doing spending so much on a guitar in the first place? Do most of us know why?

[turtle]

Thanks guys. First off I am a huge gibson fan. My thread was just what I'm seeing in the guitars I've been in contact with. A couple things... One- I watched a gibson tour factory and The USA models look mostly machine made. I'm cool with that btw. Secondly. My friends first 2 basses were right from gibson to shelf never opened and sent to my friend I believe. The midtown bass wasn't available in store when he ordered. The last one came from music zoo and was damn perfect except for some factory blems like the serial # an the wiring that was crap on all 3 anyhow. He replaced the pots ect because they were glopped with solder and really a mess. A few bucks later without sending back in fear of another lemon. Why does gibson have to make so many models of a les paul and such anyhow. A couple people here say stuff about wood ect. Well, if they don't make poor examples of guitars like the one I saw then more wood would be available for The better made guitars. An if the wood isn't as good and going to set an example of their company why bother ? It's not a bash. I have an older burst and a few goldtops that are all amazing but lately I'm not impressed with what gibson has been doing. Ps. This is not a bash!

[pippy]

No.

 

P.

[TomV]

Hey...I love my "Classic Custom!"

Does that look like a "Chinese fake," to you??!

 

 

Let´s see .... yep, looks legit :)

 

You know, it has been a sure tell-tale for years - a brown fretboard on a "Custom"..

It takes some time to get used to it, and I didnt mean to hurt your feelings.

 

 

Of course these guitars are for a large part made by CNC machines.. but still a lot has to be done by hand - final neck shape, neck setting, binding, spraying paint, scraping, etc etc.

[Metalrulez]

No.

[SouthpawKen]

I'd have to say, yes and no. On Christmas Eve 2012, I received my LP Trad. and the neck was obviously not even done being shaped yet. Between the first fret and nut just below the binding was this indentation that had some kind of filler compound in it and the mahogany was sticking out from the fretboard by 1.0 mm. On this model the neck is a beefy 50s' type, but on this guitar, is was much fatter yet. Hence the fact that the neck had not been finished being shaped. Also, for a Caramel Burst, the finish appeared to be identical to my Honey Burst 94 and 97 LP Standards. For a AA flame top, not even close. I'd have to strap it on in play mode to see any kind of flame, I guess this is what they call "phantom flame" and this guitar was returned. The great news here is, my replacement was a real stunner, the finish was obviously Caramel and the top is a blistered quilt. The rosewood fretboard even has some interesting grain characteristics to it with even a little redness to it running up the board, very nice.

A couple of weekends ago, I was at a guitar shop that had two new LP Trads. One of them was decent enough from the price and the other one? It was a HCSB and had such a mismatched top that was absolutely ugly as sin. One half of the maple top had a light flame figure to it and the other half was as plain as it gets and they want somebody to buy this at $2299.00 plus tax? Yeah, maybe if the guy buying it is blind maybe. However, at my local guitar shop where I purchased mine, they have two Right handed LP Trads., both have stunning drop dead tops. One is in Caramel and the other is a Light Burst, both of these are knockouts. Also bought a 2013 SG Standard in Natural burst. This guitar is practicly flawless, the only things I found are, what apears to be a watermark on the top, it's barely noticeable unless you hold the guitar at an angle. The Nitrogloss finish looks like it was wiped with a rag that had course saw dust impregnated into it and the finish has hairline scratches all over it. Again, you have to hold the guitar at an angle to really see this. However, I believe I can rub those out with polish. Also have noticed a film on my past four Nitrogloss Gibsons between the saddle running under the bridge to the back of the bridge pickup mount bezel and between the pickups. This is no big thing, because it's easily removed with regular guitar polish.

[sixfan]

I think they make as good of stuff as they ever have, but what is interesting is these days even imports of all sorts of makes have made quantum leaps in quality to narrow the gap between higher end stuff like Gibsons , though imo, Gibsons are still head and shoulders above most all imports. What's interesting to me is, they have about as much cachet and desireability as ever,... maybe even moreso now, so they're doing something right apparently lol.

[Twang Gang]

I would agree that a lot has to do with the dealer and how they staff their stores and watch the equipment. After reading in the acoustic forum I got it in my head that I should go try some Gibson acoustics. I had seriously considered one years ago, but just couldn't afford it. Went to a local Guitar Center and they had about 5 or 6 hanging on the wall that anyone could just grab and play. I think there might have been a salesman in the acoustic room, but I am not sure. No one ever approached me and asked what I was looking for or if they could assist in any way. I played several and each one had something detrimental that would prevent me from buying it, but all of them could have been adjusted or fixed if the store staff was aware and wanted to do something about it.

 

My favorite shop is a small privately held music store and the bulk of their business is renting/selling horns to grammar school kids. But they are G&L and Taylor dealer, and you don't get to just grab a guitar off the wall and play it. Someone always assists you, and make suggestions, and take the guitars off the wall for you so you don't bang it up etc. They take trades and often have something unique in there - and I never played anything that wasn't well set up, and intonated etc. They check each one and adjust it before they put it out on display.

 

The big box stores don't have time, or take time to do that. They are trying to make it on volume, so take in the shipment, open it up and put it on the wall, and maybe some teenager with Mommy's credit card will come in and buy it today!! Unfortunatley those big box places are the ones with the largest selection so if you want to try several different models that's the place to go. Unfortunately most of the guitars won't be set up, the neck will be grimy from kids playing them etc.

 

But is Gibson going downhill? I don't think so. I recently also purchased a classic custom and love it.

[Eracer_Team]

a lot has to do with the dealer and how they staff their stores and watch the equipment.

 

This isn't the first post I've noticed this on this forum; esp when another member starts slamming Gibson on QC.

 

What makes the dealer have to be the 'factories' QC?

They should be just un-box, set-up (usually an after sale item) and sell.

 

What happens if they find one in a box that has "factory" QC issues, do they ship it back to the factory?

Well yes, but the missed in factory QC shouldn't have walked out the door to the dealer.

Dealer shouldn't have to be the end of the line QC.

 

I bet there are all sorts of rules for MF/GC and the alike to be able to ship a product back to the factory that makes it probably almost impossible to ship back before sold to end consumer.

 

Just thinking out loud here.

but the way we've setup our comsumer sales here in NA its 'just in time' staffing, that leaves too many of us over worked.

Factory QC is well Factory QC.