Cheap plastic pins on high-end Gibsons

[livemusic]

I just put new strings on my GORGEOUS (stunning '37 antique sunburst) Martin D28 and noted the beautiful pins, white with a black dot. Really pretty. I don't know what they are made of but I don't think it's plastic. And my lovely J-45 and Jackson Browne Gibbies have cheap plastic pins. I don't get it. That JB sells for six grand! I will admit though that I read a thread one time and guy said that plastic actually sounded better than other pin material. I wonder what Gibson thinks or what Jackson Browne thinks! How much could that detract from their bottom line? Not much, I wonder if they really prefer plastic.

[Stubee]

Many if not most of those great old vintage Gibson flattops people lust after came with plastic pins and many still wear them quite happily. They work & the guitars sound good.

[trvlr]

I will admit though that I read a thread one time and guy said that plastic actually sounded better than other pin material

 

I've read that here on this forum more than once as well. Which would be my opinion of why they ship that way. They sound better. We'd have to see the books, e-mail exchanges on if this is a cost-cutting measure vs. a "they sound better" reason. Plenty of room for debate on this issue.

[BigKahune]

.

Yep, the plastic white whale has breached again.

 

Gibson does use other materials on some models - bone, tusq.

 

I would prefer bone. The pro plastic argument goes - plastic keeps the cost down, people buy what they want after purchase anyway, and plastic works just fine.

 

Plastic is fine I guess (Jerry brought me down to earth on this), but please Gibson, stay away from those plastic pins that have the cheesy looking mismatched mold seams.

 

Bridge pin from a $3500 J-200 - the two halves don't even line up - fugly -

[ParlourMan]

.The pro plastic argument goes - plastic keeps the cost down, people buy what they want after purchase anyway, and plastic works just fine.

 

Shouldn't be part of the equation on a $6K guitar. Not many further words required on that, it just shouldn't. ...to be honest it shouldn't be a consideration on a 2K guitar, but there you go.... a scandalously cheap decision if you ask me.

[trvlr]

I seem to recall a thread where someone was trying bone, tusg pins etc and actually went back to the plastic pins. Determined that's what sounded best on that guitar. Subjective test I know, but there may be one reason aside from cost for plastic pins on a Gibby.

[Red 333]

I wonder what Gibson thinks or what Jackson Browne thinks!

 

Given how many years Browne spent with Gibson developing his signature model, and the number of different prototypes with differing details that were evaluated (surely a record for the development of a sig. model), I would venture he knows full well that the pins are plastic and he doesn't have a problem with it.

 

Red 333

[jdd707]

I seem to recall a thread where someone was trying bone, tusg pins etc and actually went back to the plastic pins. Determined that's what sounded best on that guitar. Subjective test I know, but there may be one reason aside from cost for plastic pins on a Gibby.

 

 

Yeah, I had a similar situation on my AJ. Tried bone as a result of reading about them here. When back to ivorid after one set of strings and regained a sound I like.

[bobby b]

I seem to recall a thread where someone was trying bone, tusg pins etc and actually went back to the plastic pins. Determined that's what sounded best on that guitar. Subjective test I know, but there may be one reason aside from cost for plastic pins on a Gibby.

 

 

Yup, that was me. I still have the bone pins sitting unused in a jar.

 

The plastic pins, I used some really fine sandpaper and got rid of the seams, then polished them up. I still use 'em. I really really wanted to use the bone pins as they look fantastic, but they seem ( to me ) to deaden the sound of the guitar......

[onewilyfool]

I'll probably get a lot of flack for this, BUT.....I feel 95% of a guitar's sound, tone, volume, etc., owe it's quality to the top and top bracing! There, I've said it. The remaining 5% is "colored" by the B&S tone woods, strings, pins, etc. I agree that Gibson must have traveled halfway around the world to find pins that cheap, that being said, if you don't like them, swap them out, won't change much, but will allow you to change the aesthetics to your liking, and maybe color the sound somewhat better for your ear. But not much. The coolest set of bridge pins was posted her on our forum by Guitarstrummer, I think, the pins spelled "G.i.b.s.o.n." Six pins, six letters.....very clever. I've never seen them on line or I would probably get a set for at least one of my gibby's. Bone pins on my CF-100 seemed to make the sound a little brittle to my ear, so switched back to plastic.

[JuanCarlosVejar]

It doesn't bother be that much ... and I think they sound great with plastic pins .... I do know that on the Master museum guitars they offer ebony pins and stuff like that

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

JC

[Kaiser Bill]

My signature J200 has brass pins, but I think they were put in aftermarket. I don't really know... it was a gift.

[onewilyfool]

My signature J200 has brass pins, but I think they were put in aftermarket. I don't really know... it was a gift.

Nice gift! Do those brass pins make it sound really bright?

[ParlourMan]

Given how many years Browne spent with Gibson developing his signature model, and the number of different prototypes with differing details that were evaluated (surely a record for the development of a sig. model), I would venture he knows full well that the pins are plastic and he doesn't have a problem with it.

 

Red 333

 

A cost the end customer seems to be covering more than handsomely....

[E-minor7]

., , , but please Gibson, stay away from those plastic pins that have the cheesy looking mismatched mold seams.

Plus 1 -

 

Apart from that, the plastics are okay as a neutral starter. I supply with bone and wood and use them as final adjusters.

Sometimes it means different coloured pins in other situations they match fine. Wood comes in all hues and bone can be dyed.

[chasAK]

This topic has been hashed out several other times and I am sure it will come up again. Em7, I have seen, with interest, your multi pin assortment on the some of the picture you've posted. What is the difference in tone you hear with the different materials and how much of a difference do you think they make? My opinion is that it does not make that much of a difference, but I have never experimented with it. I changed mine out my pins because I view plastic as a sound, or vibration, absorber, or at least a poor conductor, rather than a sound, or vibration, conductor. I would have been happy with Tusg, bone, horn, or anything that was brittle verses soft. I went with FWI because it was locally available and carried a piece of Alaska heritage. I change out the nut and saddle to bone all at the same time. Therefore I cannot speak to how much of a change the pins made. I believe the saddle is the most important of the three. The nut is only significant on open strings.

 

[retrorod]

The nut is only significant on open strings.

 

 

 

 

But you have to admit that the 'open strings' are quite significant also to the 'tonal pallet'.....

[BluesKing777]

I try to get rid of any sign of plastic whatsoever in my guitars, just my thing, so I bought a whole bag of bone and ebony pins from Stewmac to save the transport van a few journeys a while back and I see the bag of bone pins is now empty... must have used all those!

 

 

When I bought my Martin 000c-15e years ago, the rage on the Martin forum was to swap the plastic bridge, nut and pins for bone - if you didn't do this you may as well left for parts unknown. It was such an endemic comment and suggestion on the forum, that Martin now bring the 15 series out with all these upgrades as 'standard'.

 

 

I think it took a while for the bone bits to settle in/break in(??) on the Martin hogknee - it did sound a bit bright for a while but not now.

 

 

BluesKing777.

[jt]

I couldn't disagree more with the "no plastic" aesthetic. Of course, you need good plastic, of which these pins by my pals at Antique Acoustics are made, but it really is good stuff. As for bone, ivory, brass, my opinion is that it is rarely a good idea to add mass to the bridge. My ears confirm this. As for wooden pins, imho these are second best: about the same weight as (good) plastic pins but not as hard.

[E-minor7]

This topic has been hashed out several other times and I am sure it will come up again. Em7, I have seen, with interest, your multi pin assortment on the some of the picture you've posted. What is the difference in tone you hear with the different materials and how much of a difference do you think they make?

I have done this often enough to believe in it (no matter faded strings or the fact they might change when loosened and strung up again).

 

Found the standardized theory to be true :

 

Wood dampens or round the sound – the bone clears up and adds volume.

 

Haven't tried brass, but horn is somewhere just above the wood.

[jt]

I have done this often enough to believe in it (no matter faded strings or the fact they might change when loosened and strung up again).

 

Found the standardized theory to be true :

 

Wood dampens or round the sound – the bone clears up and adds volume.

 

Haven't tried brass, but horn is somewhere just above the wood.

 

Coolest is that we all listen and judge with our own ears. A significant majority of the time, mine prefer cheap plastic. To my ears, anything that adds mass to the bridge is a bad thing. Wooden pins are OK, but hard plastic pins like those offered by my friends Willi Henkes and Rudie Blazer of Antique Acoustics, who have discovered the vintage plastic recipe, are best.

[BigKahune]

.

Bridge mass. . Pin mass. . Saddle mass.

 

Next will be neck resets to steeper angles so plastic saddles can be shaved down, making them less massive and really improving sound/tone.

 

lolz

 

 

.

[E-minor7]

.

Next will be. . .

 

.

No kiddin', I thought of something in the neighborhood.

 

Have a guitar where there only just enough saddle to peeps up above the groove.

Keep the saddle where it is, but reduce the height of the bridge wood.

 

Will ask my luthier next time I see him.

[BigKahune]

.

Well, there's certainly been plenty of discussion on the bridge mass subject on the AGF and others.

 

If the minor mass difference between two different bridge pin sets is enough to worry about, all that forearm meat laying on the bass side lower bout must be a real tone killer - I guess I'll have to figure a way to break that habit. . B)

 

 

.

[E-minor7]

Coolest is that we all listen and judge with our own ears. A significant majority of the time, mine prefer cheap plastic. To my ears, anything that adds mass to the bridge is a bad thing. Wooden pins are OK, but hard plastic pins like those offered by my friends Willi Henkes and Rudie Blazer of Antique Acoustics, who have discovered the vintage plastic recipe, are best.

If I know you 15 %, jt, there another factor in your scenery also : Originality.

And I fully understand, as you are the heavy concept-man you are.

But from a sound-wise point of view, there might be variations allowed – simply to compensate for sonic irregularities grown into the instrument over those many years.

 

It's a bit of a philosophical question – like when taking photos.

 

How much am I 'entitled' to change – to which degree is the machine (the guitar/camera) the truth-setter and where and on which level can I move in.

If Bozemann or Minolta is given 'god-status', then I must obey.

If I announce myself the master, well the choice is free. Add a little colour and light – sand a little brace.

 

Btw. my idea is that it's a matter of material through which the vibes travel, not mass as such.

 

.Well, there's certainly been plenty of discussion on the bridge mass subject on the AGF and others.

 

If the minor mass difference between two different bridge pin sets is enough to worry about, all that forearm meat laying on the bass side lower bout must be a real tone killer - I guess I'll have to figure a way to break that habit. . B)

 

BK – bridge mass, , , and the angle.

 

In fact my forearm isn't really close-resting on the bout. I got aware of that not too long ago.

Well, maybe my biceps isn't big enough, , , for all that playing. . .