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Dafgog

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Posts posted by Dafgog

    J 45 1948 - refret

    in Vintage Corner

    Posted

    Yes thats right - Belly up bridge. Currently the action has risen slightly - trying to dehumidify and considering a refret as these are really low- as you suggest they've been recrowned and polished quite a few times in the past. Thanks for your interest and info as always

     

    Gibson J45 1947 post banner

    in Gibson Acoustic

    Posted · Edited by Dafgog

    On 11/19/2019 at 1:39 PM, j45nick said:

     

    That makes things more clear. The back braces in this period are what some of us call "knife edge" braces, because that are tall, thin, and tapered in section. The transition from fabric to wood side stays (the thin vertical inside supports with the scalloped ends) apparently happened at roughly the same time as the switch to the block logo.

    Apparently, sometime in late 1947 or early 1948, the characteristics that we see in your guitar, pretty much defining the J-45 of the late 40's-early 50's  were finalized: belly-up bridge with slot-through saddle, closed-back single-line Klusons, block logo,  tapered headstock, wood side stays rather than fabric, fattish full-C neck profile with nut width of about  1 11/16" (about  43mm) or just over that, small bridgeplate of either spruce or maple.

    If your guitar has an easy-to-read and clearly printed FON of 1017, that may date to very late 1947 or early 1948 by some sources. It could be one of the earliest examples we've seen with all those post-war characteristics in one guitar.

    Unfortunately, the actual Gibson FON sequences we read may be single-source that gets repeated as fact by other sources, leaving the impression that they are authoritative. Only the shipping ledgers tell the true tale.

    It would be nice if Gibson would digitize those shipping ledgers if they still exist. A lot of mysteries could be solved for a lot of people that really care about vintage Gibsons.

    It's no secret I'm a big fan of these particular guitars. One thing you have to be aware of when looking at them is that they are notorious for loose back braces because of the very small gluing area of that brace profile. If you have mysterious buzzes or ripples in the back, these braces are the most likely culprit. John Shults of True Vintage Guitar tells me he rarely sees one from this era without the same issue. 

    Fortunately, that's an easy fix for a competent luthier.

    These guitars may lack the mystique of the banner Gibsons, but they epitomize Gibson output shortly after WW2. And they have classic vintage Gibson tone.

    In any case, you've found a great guitar. Enjoy it, and play the heck out of it. Experiment with strings until you find the sound you want, but don't do anything irreversible to the guitar. 

    Do not replace the tuners. As my luthier says, all the tuners have to do is hold the strings to tension. I've developed a clean-up protocol for those tuners that makes them function well and look good, while maintaining their vintage appeal.

    What was the fabric around the X bracing centre - original or evidence of a previous repair? Currently trying to upload photos but failing

    Gibson J45 1947 post banner

    in Gibson Acoustic

    Posted

    20 minutes ago, jt said:

    I don’t know if I’ll get access again. Initially, a Gibson VP invited me to Nashville and assisted me in setting up to photograph the ledgers. The company so embraced my project that it underwrote my book release party and initiated a project to produce a limited run of replicas of my personal collection.

    Then, stuff got weird. When producing its hourlong radio documentary about my book and me, the BBC contacted Gibson. The company’s head of global PR told the BBC that Gibson had never heard of me or my book, but asserted that I’d violated Gibson copyright by accessing the ledgers.

    The head of PR told me the same thing when the BBC referred her to me. I asked her if she knew that Gibson had underwritten my book release party. “Can you prove that?” She asked. I responded that I didn’t need to prove anything, but that she could view a YouTube video of a Gibson VP at the party saying just that and praising me and the book. The PR woman then said that I’d illegally accessed the ledgers. When I laughed and said that a Gibson executive had welcomed and assisted me, she threatened to sue me unless I revealed the exec’s identity. I laughed at that, too, of course.

    So, strange times under the old management. As best I can figure, no one had cleared with Henry Gibson’s involvement with me. When folks began to fear the wrath of Henry, folks stopped the replica project (it took me nearly a year to get my guitars back, at one point Montana told me that they didn’t know where they were) and, for good measure, threatened to sue me.

    Things are looking up with the new management, though.

    Incredible and unbelievable how some companies just dont get it - what a marketing opportunity missed for Gibson. Lets hope the new management are more enlightened. We musnt give up hope!

     

    • Like 1

    Gibson J45 1947 post banner

    in Gibson Acoustic

    Posted

    Has any of you guys ever contacted Gibson with a view to examining  and recording for posterity, for owners and for players some of these post war ledgers? The Post Banner Ledgers - theres another book jt...If not, anyone up for the task? They can only say no (why???)

    Gibson J45 1947 post banner

    in Gibson Acoustic

    Posted

    The dot on the i in Gibson is connected to the G - so definately no later than 51 the tapered headstock also confirms this, The FON  1017-22 would suggest 1947? Anyone know why Gibson are so reluctatant to share Shipping Ledgers as described in the fabulous The Kalamazoo Gals book? Maybe they dont exist but I would be suprised if thats the case.

    Gibson J45 1947 post banner

    in Gibson Acoustic

    Posted

    5 hours ago, jt said:

    A beautiful guitar! Thanks for sharing it with us.

    As others have indicated, it's very likely more recent than 1947.

    As best I know, the late 40s-early 50s shipping ledgers are still with Gibson at its Nashville headquarters.

    Thanks, again.

     

    2 hours ago, j45nick said:

     

    That makes things more clear. The back braces in this period are what some of us call "knife edge" braces, because that are tall, thin, and tapered in section. The transition from fabric to wood side stays (the thin vertical inside supports with the scalloped ends) apparently happened at roughly the same time as the switch to the block logo.

    Apparently, sometime in late 1947 or early 1948, the characteristics that we see in your guitar, pretty much defining the J-45 of the late 40's-early 50's  were finalized: belly-up bridge with slot-through saddle, closed-back single-line Klusons, block logo,  tapered headstock, wood side stays rather than fabric, fattish full-C neck profile with nut width of about  1 11/16" (about  43mm) or just over that, small bridgeplate of either spruce or maple.

    If your guitar has an easy-to-read and clearly printed FON of 1017, that may date to very late 1947 or early 1948 by some sources. It could be one of the earliest examples we've seen with all those post-war characteristics in one guitar.

    Unfortunately, the actual Gibson FON sequences we read may be single-source that gets repeated as fact by other sources, leaving the impression that they are authoritative. Only the shipping ledgers tell the true tale.

    It would be nice if Gibson would digitize those shipping ledgers if they still exist. A lot of mysteries could be solved for a lot of people that really care about vintage Gibsons.

    It's no secret I'm a big fan of these particular guitars. One thing you have to be aware of when looking at them is that they are notorious for loose back braces because of the very small gluing area of that brace profile. If you have mysterious buzzes or ripples in the back, these braces are the most likely culprit. John Shults of True Vintage Guitar tells me he rarely sees one from this era without the same issue. 

    Fortunately, that's an easy fix for a competent luthier.

    These guitars may lack the mystique of the banner Gibsons, but they epitomize Gibson output shortly after WW2. And they have classic vintage Gibson tone.

    In any case, you've found a great guitar. Enjoy it, and play the heck out of it. Experiment with strings until you find the sound you want, but don't do anything irreversible to the guitar. 

    Do not replace the tuners. As my luthier says, all the tuners have to do is hold the strings to tension. I've developed a clean-up protocol for those tuners that makes them function well and look good, while maintaining their vintage appeal.

    Thanks Guys for some really informative posts - you have exceeded all my expectations!!!!

     

    Gibson J45 1947 post banner

    in Gibson Acoustic

    Posted

    6 minutes ago, jt said:

    A beautiful guitar! Thanks for sharing it with us.

    As others have indicated, it's very likely more recent than 1947.

    As best I know, the late 40s-early 50s shipping ledgers are still with Gibson at its Nashville headquarters.

    Thanks, again.

    Thanks JT. "A rose by any date would smell just as sweet" (Well almost!)

    Gibson J45 1947 post banner

    in Gibson Acoustic

    Posted · Edited by Dafgog
    clarity

    On 11/17/2019 at 7:08 PM, j45nick said:

    Dating in that period is tricky, since sources disagree on FON numbers between 1947 and 1950. Generally, the belly-up bridge would say no earlier than 1948, despite the FON suggestion (by some sources ) as very late in 1947.

    I'm surprised at tapered rather than scalloped top braces. You don't usually see those until a bit later, like 1954. But this is Gibson, after all, you can't really expect absolute consistency.

    Does it have fabric vertical interior side stays on the inside of the rims, or wood?

    Made in USA on headstock says export model, tapered headstock probably ended late '51. 

    Unfortunately, shipping ledgers from this period are not readily available and may have been lost, hence the ambiguity in FON sequence. For instance, by one nominally-authoritative source, the FON's on both my J-45's could be either 1948 or 1950. One of those is 3358, the other 3644. Their top sunbursts were quite different from each other.

    Realistically, J-45's from 1947-'51 are essentially the same guitar, in most cases, including the nice, fat neck. The tapered top braces in yours are unusual for that period.

    Hi Nick - the tapered thin bracing refers to the back bracing.  After exploring with mirror and torch I can  confirm the top bracing is scalloped. There are side strengtheners- they look spruce. I'm still edging towards 47/48 but obviously would bow to your greater understanding.

    Whatever the year and whatever its repairs, it still has that earthy dried out tone. Thanks for your comments really appreciate all advice and understandings. Daf

    Gibson J45 1947 post banner

    in Gibson Acoustic

    Posted

    41 minutes ago, j45nick said:

    Yep, I've got two 1949-50 J-45's, one of which I've had for more than 50 years. 

    I happen to prefer a slightly warm tone, and am using DR Sunbeam round-core PB 12-54's. I use those on all four of my Gibson flat tops right now. Don't play out, so I don't use amplification.

    Tell us the Factory Order Number ink-stamped on the neck block inside, and we'll give you a good idea of when it was built.

    The alligator chipboard case you have was probably bought when the guitar was new. You may want to get a more substantial case if the guitar ever leaves your house. The J-45 did not come with a case back then. You bought it separately.

    For others on the forum, please note the position of the bridge pins in the bridge on this guitar. As on my guitars from this same period, the pins are set about 3/8" (10mm) forward of the back edge of the bridge, unlike their position on modern versions of the guitar.

    That's a really fine-looking guitar, without a lot of obvious playwear.  It looks all-original, probably with replaced tuner buttons. Where did you find it?

    Fairly sure it was 1947 number-1017 22 also has export stamp at top rear headstock. Bought from Vintage and Rare guitars Bath England. Alligator case looks to me like early 50s, yes not very sturdy - have ordered a Hiscox Case. The guitar has had a neck reset and a few cracks repaired- I would suspect a respray of the back but not sure. Has the tapered headstock and tapered but not scalloped bracing. Really pleased with it. Thanks for your comments.

     

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