elvtnedge Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Just wondering for those with the AL axcess if you're bridge is really sensitive to tuning depending on the angle of the guitar. What I mean is if I sit with the guitar perfectly vertical and tune, if I lean back in the chair a little bit and the guitar moves with me the tuning changes slightly. I find that especially if I'm doing some recording, that I have to stand up and tune the guitar while on me and record standing up for if I tune it standing up and then sit down to record and the guitar is not at the same angle it was while on me standing up, the tuning is out and it's not the intonation. Even if I tune it while on my lap in roughly the same position I would play it, unless I hold it in that exact spot it changes slightly. I know because it's a floyd rose style bridge it works on tension however I don't remember my ibanez's having this issue. I can't even imagine how much difference someone setting up the guitar where it lays on it's back and on a neck rest has when you tune it up that way and then strap it on and play. My neck is straight, the action is perfect etc. Maybe an extra spring in the bridge? Just an FYI, I use this guitar tuned down 1/2 step to Eb and I just put on 11's and same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SolitaryPine Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Just wondering for those with the AL axcess if you're bridge is really sensitive to tuning depending on the angle of the guitar. What I mean is if I sit with the guitar perfectly vertical and tune, if I lean back in the chair a little bit and the guitar moves with me the tuning changes slightly. I find that especially if I'm doing some recording, that I have to stand up and tune the guitar while on me and record standing up for if I tune it standing up and then sit down to record and the guitar is not at the same angle it was while on me standing up, the tuning is out and it's not the intonation. Even if I tune it while on my lap in roughly the same position I would play it, unless I hold it in that exact spot it changes slightly. I know because it's a floyd rose style bridge it works on tension however I don't remember my ibanez's having this issue. I can't even imagine how much difference someone setting up the guitar where it lays on it's back and on a neck rest has when you tune it up that way and then strap it on and play. My neck is straight, the action is perfect etc. Maybe an extra spring in the bridge? Just an FYI, I use this guitar tuned down 1/2 step to Eb and I just put on 11's and same thing. I haven't noticed this (I almost always play it standing up), but I'll check it out. That said, theoretically what you say makes a lot of sense, but it should be common for all Floyd Rose setups, as there is nothing unique about the Floyd in this guitar except the piezo wires and I can't figure out why that should cause anything different. Maybe this bridge uses a different alloy and is heavier than other Floyds and so it is more affected by gravity? Would an extra spring help? I would think so. The total tension on the string will be the same when it is "at rest," but it will take more force on the bar to change the pitch, so that should lessen the impact of gravity that you seem to be experiencing. You could, of course, also stop "floating" the bridge and put a stopper in their that will lock it down. FloydUpgrades.com has some of these that you can enable/disable fairly quickly so you could just use it in the studio, for example. Playing on the moon or in outer space should also fix it! I last owned a Floyd guitar in the 80s (right after they first came out), and, like that one, I will say that this one stays in tune much better than my non Floyd guitars.. unless I absent mindedly rest my hand on the bridge of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elvtnedge Posted January 9, 2012 Author Share Posted January 9, 2012 I emailed Graphtech and they said there really isn't much you can do since its based on string tension and springs and suggested maybe a luthier could help. They also said maybe its a weight balance issue with Les Pauls. They said to do all setup stuff in a playing position. I did a little test. With my Ibanez Jem hooked up to a Boss Tu2 tuner I played a harmonic on the 12th fret of the G string and tuned it, then hit the harmonic again and laid the guitar in my lap. The reading moved 2-3 lights towards sharp from the intune position. I did the same test with the lifeson and the reading moved 5 lights towards sharp from the intune position. Conclusion is that this bridge definitely moves more than any other bridge I've had hence why Ive only noticed tuning issues with this guitar in a variety of applications. If you want to record with this guitar it means you need to either stand or you better sit in the EXACT spot and don't move or else the tuning will catch ya. It's really sensitive. Try it and let me know if yours does the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SolitaryPine Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Yeah, I tried it and my guitar changes pitch also. It is exactly what you would expect to happen from the impact of gravity pulling on the weight of the bridge. Meaning, when I turn the guitar onto its back the pitch goes sharp as the weight of the bridge is pulling in a direction similar to pulling "up" on the bar, and when I turn the guitar onto its face (holding it in the air) the pitch goes flat as gravity pulls the bridge in the opposite direction. In my case, the pitch change is not very great. Using my tuner (which is a TC Electronic Polytune which is pretty accurate) I was able to change the pitch about the same amount just by pushing down on the string into the fretboard harder than necessary. I'm not sure of the technical term for the amount of change, but it was about 1/3 of a half-step. From a physics point of view, I don't see any way the design of the guitar itself could impact this. The only variables that should affect it are: 1) The weight and proportions of the bridge. The heavier it is, the more force will be created by gravity pulling on the floating bridge when it is rotated from a vertical position (like when playing with a strap) where there should be no impact to a horizontal position like when the guitar is laying on its back. Also, the longer the bridge is (measured from the rotating point near the bridge pickup where the bridge contacts the two anchor mounting studs to the tail end where the string lock screws are) the more of a fulcrum effect will be placed on the strings which should increase the amount of pitch change. 2) The springs and strings. The more force is required to stretch the springs and strings from their "at rest" position, the less pitch change should occur when the guitar is rotated. So, I'm wondering if your springs or strings in your Ibanez guitars are different? Are the Ibanez guitars also tuned to Eb? Also, is there any obvious difference to the weight or length of you bridges in the Ibanez guitars? With my guitar, I had just put in a "big block" upgrade from FloydUpgrades.com which definitely increases the weight of the bridge, and now I'm thinking I am going to reverse that back to stock to lessen the weight back. I may also throw another spring in there. And if I'm still not happy I may get one of those stoppers as the truth is I don't pull up on the bar to raise pitch very often anyway. And yeah, intonating the guitar in a playing position is obviously critical. I tend to do that anyway, but now I have an actual reason to do it that way, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rock2112 Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I am generally one of the biggest tuning nuts in the world, and I really haven't had any issues with this on my AL. That's not to say that there wouldn't be any negligible change in tuning when laying the guitar flat in my lap or something like that. But there's never been any change that I've noticed. I use 10 gauge strings tuned to standard pitch, and have not added any springs or modded my bridge. My view on this is that, so long as you tune and intonate your guitar in playing position (which you should do with any guitar), this is not an issue. The only time I play with the guitar in any other position is when I'm being a lazy slouch playing on my couch without the guitar plugged in. In that event, though I have not noticed any variation in tuning or overall pitch, I think my couch and family can forgive any miniscule variation in pitch. Really, when you think about it, the change in pitch you are both detecting is probably on par or even less than changes in temperature of the playing environment would cause. I am not saying that has anything to do with what you're detecting -- I'm just saying this is not a perfect world. I am as obsessed as anybody about playing in perfect tune. But we all have to live with subtle variations. I've heard techs go nuts with the idea that they tune up a guitar on the side of the stage, and then the temperature rises 10 degrees when the guitar goes out under the lights. Yet I have never been at a concert where I was annoyed that the guitarist's tuning was sharp by +2 cents. Solitary Pine, if you're otherwise happy with the Big Block you installed, is this really enough of an issue to swap back? You don't lay down on stage, do you?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zGrooveMeister Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 This is probably one of those "your mileage may vary" things. Since every piece of wood is unique in its grain structure, I would expect this to play a role in how much the neck warps when you alter the stress on it. Just my $0.02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SolitaryPine Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Solitary Pine, if you're otherwise happy with the Big Block you installed, is this really enough of an issue to swap back? You don't lay down on stage, do you?! Actually I haven't really noticed much of a benefit to the Big Block, which is why I'm thinking of going ahead and removing to hopefully improve this issue. I agree it isn't a huge deal. But I think I'm going to get a stopper anyway. It would be helpful in other ways (like when doing an intonation to make sure everything is locked down and stable). And that way I can have a floater or not as I wish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SolitaryPine Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 This is probably one of those "your mileage may vary" things. Since every piece of wood is unique in its grain structure, I would expect this to play a role in how much the neck warps when you alter the stress on it. Just my $0.02 To me, it seems like the bridge getting pulled by gravity, not the guitar bending. Maybe that's a miniscule part of it depending on how you hold it when you rotate the guitar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elvtnedge Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 So what was the purpose of the bigger block? sustain, tuning? You should try the test with the big block and the stock block and see what holds better. I've thought about maybe installing a trem setter or something. Again not a big deal but just wondering if others had the same issue. My ibanez has 10's on it tuned to Eb and the guitar in question has 11's and tuned to Eb. One thing that is kinda bugging me is that my low E string's intonation is off. It's sharp and the saddle is all the way back as I did the intonation. If I lightly press on the 12ft fret it's ok and about right however if I hit an open G chord the low E is sharp. I don't press hard at all, just wish the saddle had a little more room to move back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SolitaryPine Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 So what was the purpose of the bigger block? sustain, tuning? Sustain. My ibanez has 10's on it tuned to Eb and the guitar in question has 11's and tuned to Eb. One thing that is kinda bugging me is that my low E string's intonation is off. It's sharp and the saddle is all the way back as I did the intonation. If I lightly press on the 12ft fret it's ok and about right however if I hit an open G chord the low E is sharp. I don't press hard at all, just wish the saddle had a little more room to move back. Interesting. Any difference in the size or apparent weight of the bridges? Also, I wonder if new strings are more affected than ones that have already been stretched out. That sucks that your saddle won't move where you need it. Did it work ok with standard E tuning? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elvtnedge Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 Sustain. Interesting. Any difference in the size or apparent weight of the bridges? Also, I wonder if new strings are more affected than ones that have already been stretched out. That sucks that your saddle won't move where you need it. Did it work ok with standard E tuning? Not sure in standard tuning. It's not a big deal I just put the low e a hair flat. I need to check the intonation now since I just put on 11's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elvtnedge Posted January 18, 2012 Author Share Posted January 18, 2012 One more question for those of us with the guitar. The only floyd rose style bridges I've ever owned was an Ibanez and the whammy bar you push in and its in there tightly. It won't really swing per say. On my Al since its an allen wrench style system, I pull the bar out to put it in the case for a gig and then put it back in when I use it at the gig. Last gig the bar went in really easily and actually fell out of the guitar during one song when I used it. Luckily I had an the right size allen wrench with me to tighten in. According to Graphtech the bar should wave freely but not come out. Do you guys need to tighten the bar from time to time? or every time you put the bar in and or out? Watching Alex's tech talk about the guitars, the bar isn't moving at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rock2112 Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Do you guys need to tighten the bar from time to time? or every time you put the bar in and or out? Watching Alex's tech talk about the guitars, the bar isn't moving at all. My ideal would be to let go of the bar with my hands over the strings and have it drop just a bit -- but that's just in my dreams. I don't like the bar loose and swinging (as distinguished from a loose and swinging bar!) for two reasons: first, sometimes you reach for it and it's just not where you think it is, and second, too much play room means uneven tremelo and extra noise in using the trem bar. So I keep it just tight enough that it doesn't move on its own (or just barely if it does). I don't know if its bad for the system, but I take the bar out and put it back in all the time since I keep this guitar in its case when I'm not playing it. That means I have to force it in a bit and I have to move the bar back and forth a bit while taking it out. But as often as I'm putting the bar on and taking it off, it would drive me crazy if I had to bother with an allen wrench each time. Every couple of months or so, I have to get the wrench out and tighten things up a tad. On my Charvel, I have a traditional Floyd and it has the adjustable arm where you just drop it in and then turn at the base of the arm to tighten or loosen it. That also has ups and downs. There are no allen wrenches, but that thing loosens up with use so quickly it can go from too tight to too loose in the course of a single song. I'm pretty happy with the way the GraphTech system works. I'll probably have to buy a new bar and allen screw some years from now, but I can live with that. Speaking of the Charvel, I checked to see whether there was a tuning change on that guitar when laying that flat. It did the same thing as the AL -- things go a bit flat when you lay it flat. I suspect this is just a character of any Floyd Rose system and gravity. It is a good reminder though to be extra careful to have the guitar in playing position when you do the intonation or tune up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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