Govt health insurance

[hans]

Milrod' date=' I'm not too far behind you (or, perhaps, ahead of you).

 

However, I'm not worried about care being available, especially if we adopt a coordinated approach to health care implicit in a single payer system.

 

Quite frankly, I'm not even concerned about the possibility of being denied a heart transplant at 80+ years when my life expectancy -- even without the heart problems -- is relatively limited. I'd rather that money go to some poor kid's education. [/quote']

 

Not to annoy you, but education is also paid through income tax in Denmark. As a student one is even entitled to a monthly government grant. I am currently writing my master thesis in educational sociology as i took up studying again at a late age (I'm 37) - it wouldn't have been possible if I had to pay the whole thing myself.

[milod]

Hoyt, you're putting words in my mouth that I didn't speak.

 

Yes, I prefer private business to government. It's my observation that government bureaucrats, perhaps precisely because they are paid less than those in private business, have a tendency to enjoy a degree of a napoleon complex.

 

They're little fish in a big pond and so they dearly love to show their power by making life miserable for those over whose lives they do have some control. Yes, similar circumstances are found in corporate America too, and those folks are just as objectionable who function in that mode as well.

 

But to deny future difficulties with any sort of health care rationing without a shared health care and medical ethic is ludicrous. The fact that functionally we have health care rationing today is what has brought this whole issue to the fore, like it or not.

 

The reason I'm suggesting a train wreck is that at this point nobody really has any idea how any major change into a socialized medical system will affect the entire fabric of America.

 

I'll add that two factors, one technological and one social, add to the problem: First, we're already beyond the edge at which most people can comprehend the potential technological impact on health care and therefore on health care ethics. Second, we're not living in an era of your doc living next door and someone with whom you share a more full human relationship and even think about having shared values because you don't see him/her unless you or a relative are "sick."

 

At what point is "pulling the plug" euthanasia, for example, and at what point is it maintaining valued life.

 

You're pressing politics and I'm pressing the need for a shared ethic, or at least an ethic shared by a solid "supermajority" of Americans.

 

The flexibility of the current system is far less than 20 years ago, but there remain a degree of choices that allow the individual to find a medical ethic in a practitioner that fits with the individual's core beliefs.

 

The slow death of that last is where we've much of the difficulty today. Big corporations have taken over the payment and direction of physicians and, functionally, the plan of care of patients. I see it as bad or worse under a federal system.

 

Yes, there likely is the political capability to push through a political "solution," but my point is that without a social solution beyond platitudes spouted by politicians, stuff ain't gonna work.

 

The bottom line is that we're simply changing the engineer and painting the train. We're not doing anything to stop the movement of the train into a wreck.

 

Any system to improve the mess we have now will have to ration care. Period. How that care is rationed is the problem when we lack consensus. Again, people are sufficiently unhappy with the current mode of rationing health care that they're apparently willing, as you are, to pass it over entirely to the federal government.

 

I don't think that will do beans to solve the real problem of society learning to function with the current level of medical technology, physicians who do 40-hour work weeks run by their secretaries and the available dollars having to be rationed among 300 million people with widely divergent views of what they personally believe proper in terms of health care for themselves and their families.

 

When I hear a realistic solution to the above, not just a "well, let's federalize things into a single payer system that will solve all the problems whether we like it or not," then I'll support a given program.

 

Until then, I'm going to keep howling about a need for the nation to look at the ethical side first, then consider modes to meet the needs in a way that the people, not the bureaucracy, may embrace

[KSG_Standard]

 

Not to annoy you' date=' but education is also paid through income tax in Denmark. As a student one is even entitled to a monthly government grant. I am currently writing my master thesis in educational sociology as i took up studying again at a late age (I'm 37) - it wouldn't have been possible if I had to pay the whole thing myself.

 

[/quote']

 

My college education was paid for by me! I worked to come up with the money, no loans, no grants, no public assistance. So it seems at least possible that there are other ways to pay for education than public assistance. I have been paying for my own insurance for 31 years, either through completley private insurance or through partnerships with my employers, so it seems that it's at least possible to get insurance without gov't assistance.

 

Healthcare and heath insurance are TWO SEPERATE ISSUES.

[KSG_Standard]

Milrod' date=' you might be right about the "shared health care ethic." But I'm not sure that is a reason to let Native Americans and others suffer with inadequate health care compared to the rest of us -- [b']it ought to be the same for all, no matter how good or bad it is[/b]...

 

I don't want a race to the bottom, I want the best I can get, If I have to struggle to pay for my own, I'm okay with that, Personal desicions in life have consequences...I'm not opposed to a "safety net" for those who need it, but I want FREEDOM and CHOICE, for me and for EVERYONE else.

 

On a side note, my Father and his family are Native Americans, they chose to leave the reservation and make their own way in the "white man's world". Sitting around waiting for someone else to take care of me and my needs seems weak, lazy and stupid. If you can read, learn, work, struggle and plan in America, you have a good chance at succeeding...The same opportunities are available to EVERYBODY. We have a half black President, a black first lady and a black Attorney General, we have had 2 black secretaries of state, 3 women secretaries of state, 2 black supreme court justices and 2 women supreme court justices. Our military has been led by black men and some of the highest ranking officers have been black, hispanic and of asian decent. So, please don't tell me that the system is biased and that only white men can succeed.

[Hoyt]

Milrod,

 

You really need to get out and look at some of the buffoons running private businesses. Think GM, Chrysler, the banks, insurance companies, etc. If you really think these organizations don't have people with similar complexes, who are lazy, who hide from work, etc., you are wrong.

 

Small businesses are just as bad. If you don't believe me, put out a request for painters, roofers, plumbers, etc. If you find one good one in every three, you are lucky.

 

But, some folks don't like government -- even when they are doing a good job. Take Timmy McVeigh for instance.

[Hoyt]

 

I don't want a race to the bottom' date=' I want the best I can get, If I have to struggle to pay for my own, I'm okay with that, Personal desicions in life have consequences...I'm not opposed to a "safety net" for those who need it, but I want FREEDOM and CHOICE, for me and for EVERYONE else.

 

On a side note, my Father and his family are Native Americans, they chose to leave the reservation and make their own way in the "white man's world". Sitting around waiting for someone else to take care of me and my needs seems weak, lazy and stupid. If you can read, learn, work, struggle and plan in America, you have a good chance at succeeding...The same opportunities are available to EVERYBODY. We have a half black President, a black first lady and a black Attorney General, we have had 2 black secretaries of state, 3 women secretaries of state, 2 black supreme court justices and 2 women supreme court justices. Our military has been led by black men and some of the highest ranking officers have been black, hispanic and of asian decent. So, please don't tell me that the system is biased and that only white men can succeed.[/quote']

 

 

Spare me, KSG. I've read your right wing posts on other threads. I fully understand your position. You can't stand Obama, and many of the others you listed, except when it suits your purpose.

 

 

As to our friend Hans -- He's from a Denmark. A very different country from ours, with a very different culture. Unfortunately, you and some of your buddies can't see beyond your "I'm happy with MY health care, so screw everyone else" mentality. I personally think we can learn a lot from countries like Denmark.

[KSG_Standard]

Milrod' date='

 

You really need to get out and look at some of the buffoons running private businesses. Think GM, Chrysler, the banks, insurance companies, etc. If you really think these organizations don't have people with similar complexes, who are lazy, who hide from work, etc., you are wrong.

 

Small businesses are just as bad. If you don't believe me, put out a request for painters, roofers, plumbers, etc. If you find one good one in every three, you are lucky.

 

[b']But, some folks don't like government -- even when they are doing a good job. Take Timmy McVeigh for instance[/b].

 

That's just a crazy, off the wall statement! McVeigh didn't blow up the OKC federal building because he hated big government or because he wanted "free" healthcare! He was angry about Waco and Ruby Ridge...And he was a loony tune.

 

I've been a businessman for most of my adult life, and most of the people I deal with are honest, hard working, decent people. In the private business world, if you fail to provide the right service at the right price, you go out of business. In the world of gov't, failure doesn't seem to matter much, as long as your intent was good.

 

Barney Frank and Chris Dodd are at least partially to blame for the subprime houseing mess and they are still in office and will probably be re-elected...Larry Summers was one of the champions of deregulation of derivatives and the financial industry, along with Phil Gramm, Summers is now one of Obama's key advisors....Tim Geithner was one of the architects of the wall street bailouts and he couldn't even figure out how to pay his taxes, he's now our treasury secretary....

[milod]

Hoyt, as usual you're not arguing the point but coming up with what you consider hotbutton "proof" of your stand, such as mentioning McVeigh.

 

As for government doing a good job, I guess you like the US Postal Service.

 

I've had to work with the US Postal service far too often in my work and I can tell you that the inertia and bureaucratic infighting is such that it's a wonder anybody gets any letters anywhere.

 

One little example: If I mail a letter here on Friday to my Mom in the same town, it goes 60 miles to a sorting center that's closed for the weekend, then in a day or so the mail bag goes another 400 miles where it's sorted, then sent back those 400 miles where in another day it may or may not be packed up and sent 50 miles to a secondary sorting center nearer to here, then it comes back to my town where the next morning a carrier takes it to my Mom's house. That's roughly a week's travel for a letter to get across town.

 

Depending on who was in charge of the dock from among two camps of bureaucrats at the Post Office when I did a magazine startup, the tags on the mail bags had to be facing in or out on the "floats" used to move them. If I guessed wrong, it took an extra day to replace the tags. Usually we'd find out the next day that the wrong guy was in charge regardless of what the night or late afternoon guy said the day before. Sheesh.

 

That's what I see for government health care. Questions? Look at veterans hospitals and the Indian Health Service, assuming they haven't been closed to make their beneficiaries travel even farther.

 

And yeah, KSG hit the nail on the head. There's more than enough blame to go around with our current economic difficulties and frankly there are times I wonder if it weren't some sort of a conspiracy to create a disaster that a shining knight might come in to resolve.

 

Oh, here's another: Country of Origin Labeling (COOL) for meat has been the law of the land several years now. Do you see a label on the burger you find in the supermarket? Nope. Sandbagged by the bureaucracy. There's been a livestock disaster payment for farmers and ranchers on the books for roughly a year. USDA still hasn't set regulations for producers to get the help they need from last year's disastrous floods and in the meantime losses here have been running apparently at roughly 20 percent from this year's blizzards. COOL was pushed by a rural nonpartisan coalition including prominent Democrats.

 

The left complains about Katrina because there were a lot of leftist voters there. How about the damage to farmers and ranchers that's gone on for over a year and not even regulations set? Oh, and no appropriations to make the law worthwhile in the first place? Nope. Not enough votes even though they were passed by a Democrat majority.

 

This is what you want for the kid around the corner hit by a car or Grandma with a broken hip?

 

Good luck.

[Hoyt]

Fortunately, Milrod, if we go to a single payer system -- the gubment will just pay claims. The clinical care will be provided by the same privately practicing docs who do it now. Medicare's administration rate is around 3% -- private insurers' admin and profit rate is around 25%. You be the judge.

 

 

Actually, I do like the USPS. One of the organizations which has helped build this country. Go to UPS or Fed Ex and see what it costs to mail your mother a letter on the other side of town vs. the 42 cents it costs through the USPS. I guess we could have stayed with the Pony Express to make you guys happy.

[milod]

RE: Pony Express...

 

Actually during the US Bicentennial, there was a pony express run across the state and it beat the heck out of the USPS. <grin>

 

But... it's hard to get good horses in shape for such runs, I'll admit that.

 

BTW, here's from Ian Tyson's Elko Blues... And I resemble the remark.

 

When I die, let me go naturally

When I die, I want to go naturally

Because I've travelled this world as a free man

One thing I ask of you

Don't let them put no tubes in me.

[KSG_Standard]

Medical Bills Driving Most Middle-Class Bankruptcies

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/hscout/2009/06/04/hscout627785.html

 

 

Found this excellent article on healthcare and the problems with health insurance. The article supports most of the claims of the more liberal forumites in this thread.

 

Might there be another solution for the problems, other than a single payer system? How about rewriting the insurance regulations and changing the existing regulatory structure for the industry? Why throw out the baby with the bath water? The President and Congress could probably get more Americans onboard with this approach than with all out gov't run health insurance...Just sayin'

[Hoyt]

Medical Bills Driving Most Middle-Class Bankruptcies

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/hscout/2009/06/04/hscout627785.html

 

 

Found this excellent article on healthcare and the problems with health insurance. The article supports most of the claims of the more liberal forumites in this thread.

 

Might there be another solution for the problems' date=' other than a single payer system? How about rewriting the insurance regulations and changing the existing regulatory structure for the industry? Why throw out the baby with the bath water? The President and Congress could probably get more Americans onboard with this approach than with all out gov't run health insurance...Just sayin'[/quote']

 

 

I have to applaud you for posting that article.

 

I think we will definitely get some major industry reforms -- such as having to take on all who apply without regard to preexisting conditions.

 

While I still think single payer is the best way to go, it looks like we are more likely to get insurance reforms, more subsidies for the uninsured, and the ability of people to buy into the Medicare system at an earlier age. I think in the long run people with gravitate toward the government system, but it will spur private insurers to have to compete with the government system. We'll see what happens.