Losing my MIND over a ES-345

[Flitcraft]

I have a 1961 ES-345 which has always sounded horrible in the middle position. There is a significant drop in volume and it sounds like a duck quacking on AM radio. I have had it for 30 years and nothing I seem to do makes a difference. I concluded that there was something wrong with it and a few weeks ago, I got a luthier to rewire according to the factory schematic. He cleaned it out, set it up, polished it and now it looks terrific. I got a proper stereo chord and ran it to two amps (vintage Deluxe Reverb and Super Reverb) and with great expectations, put it on the middle position and ...

 

It still quacks like a duck. No improvement at all.

 

Is this what the guitar is SUPPOSED to sound like in the middle position? If so, WHAT in the name of heaven was Gibson THINKING back then?

 

Any advice would be most appreciated.

[Robin Nahum]

Hi and welcome.

 

345s are not supposed to sound like that - and the two with which I have had close experience don't.

 

Given that you have rewired, it sounds to me like the next possibility is that one of the pickups is incorrectly wired out of phase so that when both are on, the bottom end disappears through phase cancellation and you get the quacking tone.

 

I don't suppose the instrument is still under warranty?

 

Seriously though, the way to test this hypothesis would be to run one of the leads through some kind of phase inverter before it hits the amp and see if you get the full range.

 

Ah I've just thought of something even easier! The normal and vibrato channels of your Fender amps should be 180 degrees out of phase. This is because of the additional tube in the vibrato channel circuit. So if you plug one pickup into the normal channel and the other into the vibrato channel, the sound should be okay.

 

RN

[Flitcraft]

Robin, thanks a lot for the quick reply. I have been trying to find someone else locally with a 345/355 to compare but have had no luck yet. The repair guy said the pickups were not out of phase. Also, I have run the guitar through two different amps with a stereo jack, as well as one amp in two different channels. No luck. I will try the phase inverter suggestion.

[Robin Nahum]

Hmmm.... interesting.

 

I presume you did your testing with the Varitone on bypass.

 

What kinds of sound do you get when you switch through the Varitone settings when both pickups are switched in? Does it go from quack to ultra-quack?

 

R

[Flitcraft]

Exactly! Quack to ultra quack. Here is something else: when I use the stereo chord and two amps, it is supposed to be one pickup per amp. Not so. If I unplug half of the Y connector, one amp gets both pickups.

 

Very confusing.

[Robin Nahum]

Aha!!

 

If that's the case, I'm pretty sure your answer is that this 345 is the victim of a botched mono-isation by the previous owner.

 

People who grow impatient with the stereo-ness of 345s (including shlepping two amps) sometimes get a "good" idea - which is to solder together the two actives near the output socket figuring they will then get a mono output via the tip of the plug.

 

Unfortunately this fix does not work as expected because of the way that the Varitone interacts with the tone circuit. (Mono-ising a 345 correctly is much more involved which is why I favoured an outboard solution until I switched to a 2002 ES345 which has a factory-fitted mono out.)

 

Suggest you check out the wiring near the output socket. The signal from the neck pickup should travel to the amp via the tip of the stereo plug and the bridge pickup via the ring. (I wonder if this was a thoughtful gesture by Gibson towards jazzers who play a 345 and find themselves at a gig with only a mono lead.)

 

Also have a look at:

 

http://forums.gibson.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=6561

 

R

[apossibleworld]

Your ES-345 sounds the way it's supposed to. It's a Stereo guitar, and the pickups are wired out of phase with each other. If you want them in phase, you literally have to flip one of the magnets inside one pickup. If you run it in true stereo, with a stereo cable and two amps, you won't have this problem. Another thing you can do, with a normal cable in mono, is try rolling back one of the volumes just a touch. It won't get rid of the quack completely, but will make it much fuller sounding. That's just what ES-345s do, unless you want to take more drastic measures, which I wouldn't recommend on a vintage guitar. It sounds like you have further wiring problems, but they won't solve this issue. Good luck!

[kaicho8888]

Anybody know how to check if the pickups are in phase or out of phase? Years ago, I would attach an analogue voltmeter to the end of one chord; use a magnet near the corresponding pickup and pull the magnet away. The needle will move slightly one way or the other (pluis or minus). I then repeat the same procedure to the other pickup using the same magnet in the same orientation. If the needle swings the same way, it's in phase.

 

Is this a good confirmation on pickup phasing?...I believe my ES-345 was in phase when I last did it. I don't currently own an analogue voltmeter; and I don't know if a digital one would work. I'll might give it a try.

[L5Larry]

Don't know if the test is valid, but a digital voltmeter will still work the same way. You just have to watch it more closely for the digit, +, - changes.

[Ken Rayba]

I don't think that is the way it is supposed to sound! We have had this discussion before, I have a 76 ES 345, and here is what I can tell you.

 

I have a stereo "Y" chord that I use in a Super Reverb Amp, using both channels, or I can use two different amps.

 

Each pick-up is independent of the other, unlike a ES 335 (which I also have). On a 335, if the toggle switch is in the middle, and turn up one pick up, it won't work unless the other pick up is up. On my ES 345, using the Y chord, you can turn on each pick up seperately, w/o the other one being on.

 

If I use a standard mono chord in my guitar and fully insert it, the neck pick up is the only one that works.

 

If I pull the chord out a bit, I can make contact with both pick ups. The neck pick up will work, then I change the toggle switch, the bridge pick will also work. When I put the toggle in the middle, I get that "out of phase" or "quack" as you describe, when I use a standard mono guitar chord.

 

I can get that same "quack" using my Stereo "Y" chord if I plug both mono jacks into inputs 1 and 2 in a single channel! Example my Hot Rod Deluxe, it has two inputs, but only one channel.

 

I have had two different Super Reverbs, and they both work perfectly, using one pick up in channel one (Vibrato) and one pick up in channel two (normal).

 

I need two amps, or an amplifer with two seperate channels. My ES 345 has almost the same sound as my 335, the 335 pick ups are hotter, and the sound is more harsh than the ES 345.

 

That is the best way I can describe it, I hope I made some sense of it.

[Robin Nahum]

Hi Ken,

 

We must stop meeting like this.

 

R

[Ken Rayba]

Hey Robin, your right!

 

I don't really play my 345 out anymore. I picked up a Tele in 95 which I use, and I also picked up my 335 in ebony in 05! I think I have the best of both worlds.

 

Take Care in The Land Down Under!

[Robin Nahum]

Hey Robin' date=' your right!

 

I don't really play my 345 out anymore. I picked up a Tele in 95 which I use, and I also picked up my 335 in ebony in 05! I think I have the best of both worlds.

 

Take Care in The Land Down Under![/quote']

 

My 2002 345, on the other hand, has very much become my go-to guitar, and my Charliecaster (homebrew Tele Thinline with a Charlie Christian in the neck) is looking a bit forlorn. I am just going through a period where I find single coils a bit "zingy" - even a Charlie.

 

I replaced the Classic 57s with lower output AlNiCo2 humbuckers from Pete Biltoft and have now fitted Thomastik .012 flats (which are a bit lighter and a bit brighter than the WebString flats that preceded them) and I pretty much have Kenny Burrell tone - but not the chops! A good setup helped a lot too. I don't think the guitar was played much by the previous owner so the neck is still stabilising.

 

Practising through a DR and planning to play out through a VR unless it's a small gig.

 

Regards

 

R

[Flitcraft]

UPDATE!

 

I got the guitar fixed. Or at least, the middle position no longer quacks like a duck on AM radio. I found a repair guy who seemed to know something about these guitars (Ian Vance at Lauzon's Music in Ottawa Canada - wonderful guy, very smart). He had a little magnet thingie tool (that's a technical term) with which he could check the polarity without removing the pickups. Going from the neck to the bridge, the coils were: S-N S-N. They are supposed to be S-N N-S. So he took out the magnet of the bridge pickup and flipped it to get the right sequence.

 

It is a totally different guitar. It sounds the same on the neck and bridge pickups alone, but the middle position is now awesome. It is "BB King Live at the Regal." BIG FAT HONK with both pickups on. A HUGE sound. Those of you whose middle position works properly know exactly what I am talking about.

 

The repair guy was backed up so I am going to leave it as is for now before trying to figure out whether or not it really is working in stereo (doesn't seem to be). In a month or so, I will take it back and sort that out. For now, I just want to play it. I love it.

 

In the process of pursuing this problem, I have discovered more than a few people who think that the middle position is supposed to sound like that. I know that sound is subjective but there is no way it is supposed to be like that. It was awful. The repair guy agreed. He also said that it looked like the original tape on the PAF's had not been tampered with. This means it was a mistake IN THE FACTORY in 1961. Any thoughts on that?

 

Thanks a lot for the feedback and suggestions. It was all very helpful.

[Robin Nahum]

Oh wow!! Nice! Thank you for the update.

 

Looks like QA might have been a bit hit and miss in 1961.

 

 

RN